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Radwan Hamed

DaSpurs

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Jan 20, 2013
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I'm no expert but that was very much what I got from the whole thing.


Does anyone know if the £7m damages being quoted is purely based on his required level of care or potential loss of earnings as a football player? I'm guessing the former as these things add up and I hope he gets all that he needs, I imagine it will be a massive weight off the families shoulders when this is finally settled.

Actually, I assumed the latter as I suspected a great percentage of his health care would have been covered. I suspect he/his family are now suing for loss of potential for income and grave loss of life quality.
 

JerryGarcia

Dark star crashes...
May 18, 2006
8,694
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Actually, I assumed the latter as I suspected a great percentage of his health care would have been covered. I suspect he/his family are now suing for loss of potential for income and grave loss of life quality.

That's interesting, I didn't think of it like that. I hope he gets the full amount but I was thinking it would be harder to claim for such a big loss of earnings than it would be for medical bills and general care, but I guess it may be a bit of everything. I remember a case where a former academy player who had been injured, tried to sue for a large amount and ended up with very little. I can't remember who it was but there could be loads of stories like that. In this case though, I think he's clearly entitled to the full amount as there was a failure on the doctors part.
 

DaSpurs

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2013
11,816
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That's interesting, I didn't think of it like that. I hope he gets the full amount but I was thinking it would be harder to claim for such a big loss of earnings than it would be for medical bills and general care, but I guess it may be a bit of everything. I remember a case where a former academy player who had been injured, tried to sue for a large amount and ended up with very little. I can't remember who it was but there could be loads of stories like that. In this case though, I think he's clearly entitled to the full amount as there was a failure on the doctors part.

Yeah that's the discerning factor, he does have legitimate cause to sue for such a large amount because quite clearly the consultant, the team physio, and club all massively played their part in a very harmful act towards the player's health and livelihood. I think his health coverage and the club have likely covered health costs and thereby keeping the case out of the courts, but upon finding information that the club and its consultants neglected proper care of the player and misinformed the player of a potential problem, he rightly had a cause to sue for grave compensation.
 

NEVILLEB

Well-Known Member
Nov 6, 2006
6,793
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Not having a pitch side defibrillator is another reason stated for his brain damage and one of the reason's we've been found responsible.

Not performing the yearly assessments recommended by Dr Mills is another.

We blamed Dr Mills entirely and the judge found the truth to be otherwise. Dr Mills did eventually submit to his errors but the club never did.

Not exactly putting us in the best light.
 

DaSpurs

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Jan 20, 2013
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Not having a pitch side defibrillator is another reason stated for his brain damage and one of the reason's we've been found responsible.

Not performing the yearly assessments recommended by Dr Mills is another.

We blamed Dr Mills entirely and the judge found the truth to be otherwise. Dr Mills did eventually submit to his errors but the club never did.

Not exactly putting us in the best light.

Again, yes the club screwed up and yes they were found guilty of it. But they did not "entirely blame Dr Mills," they just followed the claims process and attempted to divert some of the financial blame (as they succeeded in doing) as we can have no doubt the insurance company mandated in order to give the claim. If the club was "blaming Dr Mills entirely," they would not have responded to the ruling with:

"This judgment will hopefully now secure the best possible treatment and care for him. The club has been supportive of Radwan and his family over the past 10 years and we wish them well for the future."

but rather with declaring they would likely appeal the decision. This is literally nothing more than due process with making insurance claims, and yes it's true that the media is spinning it into a light such as to garner interest and discussion. You are falling for it, just as they intended. The club should not risk millions in expenditure to avoid using their liability insurance for the sake of "appearing moral to the public," when the public should be able to reason through the media's spun web's in the first place.
 

NEVILLEB

Well-Known Member
Nov 6, 2006
6,793
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Again, yes the club screwed up and yes they were found guilty of it. But they did not "entirely blame Dr Mills," they just followed the claims process and attempted to divert some of the financial blame (as they succeeded in doing) as we can have no doubt the insurance company mandated in order to give the claim. If the club was "blaming Dr Mills entirely," they would not have responded to the ruling with:

"This judgment will hopefully now secure the best possible treatment and care for him. The club has been supportive of Radwan and his family over the past 10 years and we wish them well for the future."

but rather with declaring they would likely appeal the decision. This is literally nothing more than due process with making insurance claims, and yes it's true that the media is spinning it into a light such as to garner interest and discussion. You are falling for it, just as they intended. The club should not risk millions in expenditure to avoid using their liability insurance for the sake of "appearing moral to the public," when the public should be able to reason through the media's spun web's in the first place.

That quote was made after they were found liable. Before that they denied responsibility.

Stop wasting my time.
 

jambreck

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2013
3,200
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You've asked me 'Do you know' over and over and then followed with 'My guess is that'. Hypocritical.

No. Not hypocritical at all. The big difference is that you made assertions as to how the club has behaved and how the family has suffered - as if it was a matter of fact (when it was nothing of the sort). What I did was specifically NOT to make any assertions. My deliberate use of the phrase "I guess" ought to have flagged that up for you.

The judge has found the club 70% liable.

Yes, we know. No one has denied it. Why are you repeating the fact?

The specialist we employed made an error of judgement but did ask the club to make regular checks on his heart which they failed to do. There were faults at both ends. The specialist admitted his error during the trial but the club maintained they did nothing wrong even in the face of evidence they did. Clearly the judge thought they were lying.

You're confused. Either that or you haven't read the story properly at all. There are three doctors involved in this case. One - a third party doctor who has been found 30% responsible. The other two were employed by the club and they too failed in their duty of care to Radwan Hamed. Spurs, as those two doctors' employers, were found vicariously responsible for the remaining 70%. However, it is telling that it has been agreed that any damages will be met by the two doctors' public liability insurers rather than Spurs' public liability insurers. You think the doctors' public liability insurers would have agreed to that unless the two club doctors in question were clearly to blame? Bear in mind that when Spurs employ experts in the field of medicine, they have a right to believe that those experts will offer sound advice and they have a duty to act upon it when given. Spurs fulfilled that duty and acted on the advice. Sadly, it turned out to be anything but sound.

So stop trying to turn the narrative of this story into something that it isn't. This isn't a case of Spurs trying to deny responsibility for something they clearly did (or didn't) do. Nor is it a case of the judge finding Spurs guilty of lying (what a bizarre conclusion). This was the insurers' battle. Not Spurs'. It made no odds to Spurs either way.
 
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jambreck

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Jul 20, 2013
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Who cares who's liable or negligible? It is bitterly dissappointing the club has seemingly failed to do anything for Hamed and his family here. What's even more dissappointing is that we didnt have regular checkups on the kid. The fact this has gotten to this point is disheartening, IMO. Shameful on the club.

WTF?

Can you not read?

The club has been looking after Hamed and his family ever since the heart attack.

And it's got nothing to do with having regular checkups. The club doctors ignored crucial information. It's not that Hamed needed regular checkups that he was denied. It's simply that the doctors should have told him and his family that he had to stop playing football.

Please. Pretty please, with sugar on top......don't blunder into discussions and fire off angry rants until you have availed yourself of the facts.
 

jambreck

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Jul 20, 2013
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They haven't taken responsibility. They denied it and the judge has found them at fault.

That's the point.

No.

The point is that Spurs' insurers will have insisted that the claim be disputed on the grounds that the doctors' public liability insurers should pay the damages. The club would have had no say in the matter.
 
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jambreck

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Jul 20, 2013
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Not having a pitch side defibrillator is another reason stated for his brain damage and one of the reason's we've been found responsible.

The game in which Hamed suffered his heart attack was in Belgium. Not at White Hart Lane or Spurs Lodge.

Not performing the yearly assessments recommended by Dr Mills is another.

It's got nothing to do with not performing yearly assessments. Hamed suffered his heart attack very shortly after having had the original ECG. Dr Mills, by the way, was also found responsible because he failed sufficiently to stress the seriousness of Hamed's condition in his report to Spurs' club doctors. Hamed should have been told there and then that he could no longer play football.

We blamed Dr Mills entirely and the judge found the truth to be otherwise. Dr Mills did eventually submit to his errors but the club never did.

Sigh.....

No, we didn't. Our insurers fought to establish that, between them, all three doctors bore the blame.
 

DaSpurs

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Jan 20, 2013
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No.

The point is that Spurs' insurers will have insisted that the claim be disputed on the grounds that the doctors' public liability insurers should pay the damages. The club would have had no say in the matter.

It really is as simple as this. Spurs' insurers were fully within their rights to deny a claim altogether in the event they were to receive any of the blame were they not to correctly undergo the claims process, which in this case would include legislation if other parties are involved. Very, very simple stuff, and there is a massive difference between this and "shirking responsibility" and "entirely blaming the doctors."
 

NEVILLEB

Well-Known Member
Nov 6, 2006
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Mr Hamed's father, Raymon, claimed that his injuries resulted from the negligence of Dr Peter Mills, a cardiologist who screened his son, and of the club - through Dr Charlotte Cowie and Dr Mark Curtin, specialist sports physicians it employed.

Tottenham is vicariously liable for the actions of Dr Cowie and Dr Curtin, but it was agreed during the case that it would be indemnified by their insurers in respect of any damages.

Ruling that the club was 70% liable and Dr Mills 30%, and that compensation should now be assessed, the judge said that Dr Cowie, who was head of the medical services department, made a serious error of judgment when she concluded that the teenager bore no risk of an adverse cardiac event.



Radwan-Hamed--Tottenham-Hotspur-Reserves.jpg

Heart attack: Radwan Hamed


"The club owed a duty of care to the claimant as a result of both the doctor/patient and employer/employee relationship.

"With regard to the former, the club doctors were not only in effect the claimant's general practitioners, but specialist sports physicians who were - or should have been - well-acquainted with the cardiac risk faced by young athletes.

"In addition to the usual obligations of a doctor to a patient, the FA protocol placed an obligation upon them to ensure that the claimant and his parents were made aware of any risk that the claimant faced.

"It was their responsibility, as specialist physicians and employers, to ensure that relevant risks were identified and communicated to the claimant and his parents to enable them to make an informed decision as to whether to bear them. In this, they singularly failed.

"In this case, despite the July 2005 recommendation by Dr Mills and the understanding of Dr Curtin that a review was required, the club never requested any such review of Dr Mills or any other cardiologist.

"Whilst Dr Cowie said that she did not wish unduly to concern the claimant's parents before the investigations were complete, she was the claimant's medical practitioner; and she unfortunately but unreasonably gave them false assurance that theclaimant's heart was normal - on any view, it was not - and there was nothing to worry about - when, even after the MRI scan, the cardiologist had specifically indicated to the club that he was worried by the electrocardiogram (ECG).



Radwan-Hamed.jpg

Paid out: Tottenham Hotspur ground White Hart Lane


"Although she said he was sometimes busy and difficult to get hold of, given that she was dealing with a risk of a potentially fatal condition, in the event of any doubt she was obliged to obtain any necessary clarification from him."

He added that the record keeping at the club's medical services department fell far short of the acceptable.

After the ruling, Raymon Hamed said: "We are very happy because we have been waiting for this a long time. We are very relieved."
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
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Fair point but most fans/individuals feel for the person rather than the club in this instance. This happened in Aug 2006: so the family has been shouldering the responsibility alone for 8 years +. That is a heavy burden to bear even for the wealthy; and given our club finances the least you'd expect is some help during that period. Doesnt seem like it though from the article.
Yes, it doesn't seem like it from the article. Yet our own club website has stated that we have been supporting Radwan throughout this unfortunate period, something that could easily be refuted if there was evidence that we hadn't. It would be very unlike Spurs to not support a young player who had hit misfortune. Just ask Jon Obika or Simon Dawkins, whose young careers with us were constantly hampered by severe injuries but we kept them at the club, on our payroll, getting them experience whenever and wherever possible until such time came that we found them permanent homes elsewhere, in their early twenties, for fees that would come nowhere near what we spent on their wages and rehab, at clubs of decebt stature where they could make good careers. Let us not forget Mason and how much patience and support we gave him till his eventual breakthrough. At one time it looked like he'd not even have a career in the game, now he's on the verge of an international call up.

One thing that cannot be directed at our club is that we fail our young players when the encounter difficulties. The only young players we've given up on are the dickheads who don't sppreciate how good they have it just being able to train at Spurs with our top class coaches and facilities.
 

striebs

Well-Known Member
Mar 18, 2004
4,504
667
This is a sad case but this club (and others) has made some other shockingly bad decisions which have nearly ended in tragedy .

In some cases it would actually have been easier for the support staff to get the decision right . Maybe people get so caught up with the game that their objectivity goes to pot ?

An obvious example is when Erik Edman (Spurs) was running towards an opponent to head a ball resulting in one of the most sickening clash of heads seen on a football pitch .

Letting him play on was completely inexcusable .


I watched an interview of Erik a few years later and his personality had changed rather bizarrely ! Of course it would be impossible to prove in a court that it was due to that head injury .
 

jambreck

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2013
3,200
5,879
Mr Hamed's father, Raymon, claimed that his injuries resulted from the negligence of Dr Peter Mills, a cardiologist who screened his son, and of the club - through Dr Charlotte Cowie and Dr Mark Curtin, specialist sports physicians it employed.

Tottenham is vicariously liable for the actions of Dr Cowie and Dr Curtin, but it was agreed during the case that it would be indemnified by their insurers in respect of any damages.

Ruling that the club was 70% liable and Dr Mills 30%, and that compensation should now be assessed, the judge said that Dr Cowie, who was head of the medical services department, made a serious error of judgment when she concluded that the teenager bore no risk of an adverse cardiac event.



Radwan-Hamed--Tottenham-Hotspur-Reserves.jpg

Heart attack: Radwan Hamed


"The club owed a duty of care to the claimant as a result of both the doctor/patient and employer/employee relationship.

"With regard to the former, the club doctors were not only in effect the claimant's general practitioners, but specialist sports physicians who were - or should have been - well-acquainted with the cardiac risk faced by young athletes.

"In addition to the usual obligations of a doctor to a patient, the FA protocol placed an obligation upon them to ensure that the claimant and his parents were made aware of any risk that the claimant faced.

"It was their responsibility, as specialist physicians and employers, to ensure that relevant risks were identified and communicated to the claimant and his parents to enable them to make an informed decision as to whether to bear them. In this, they singularly failed.

"In this case, despite the July 2005 recommendation by Dr Mills and the understanding of Dr Curtin that a review was required, the club never requested any such review of Dr Mills or any other cardiologist.

"Whilst Dr Cowie said that she did not wish unduly to concern the claimant's parents before the investigations were complete, she was the claimant's medical practitioner; and she unfortunately but unreasonably gave them false assurance that theclaimant's heart was normal - on any view, it was not - and there was nothing to worry about - when, even after the MRI scan, the cardiologist had specifically indicated to the club that he was worried by the electrocardiogram (ECG).



Radwan-Hamed.jpg

Paid out: Tottenham Hotspur ground White Hart Lane


"Although she said he was sometimes busy and difficult to get hold of, given that she was dealing with a risk of a potentially fatal condition, in the event of any doubt she was obliged to obtain any necessary clarification from him."

He added that the record keeping at the club's medical services department fell far short of the acceptable.

After the ruling, Raymon Hamed said: "We are very happy because we have been waiting for this a long time. We are very relieved."

I presume that your posting of the entire story again is just for your benefit?

Because it's perfectly apparent that you hadn't read it properly before now.
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
I presume that your posting of the entire story again is just for your benefit?

Because it's perfectly apparent that you hadn't read it properly before now.
You're trying to reason with the sort of person who is glad that a young man has had a terrible thing happen to him because it gives him a stick with which to beat Levy and our board.
 

jambreck

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2013
3,200
5,879
You're trying to reason with the sort of person who is glad that a young man has had a terrible thing happen to him because it gives him a stick with which to beat Levy and our board.

That's going a bit far, mate. A low blow.

While NEVILLEB can be stubbornly and blindly prejudiced against all things Daniel Levy, I don't for a moment believe that he is anything other than hugely sympathetic to Hamed's situation - as we all are.
 
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