Ratings V Fulham

[double0]

Bottom line AVB should stick by his principles-possession football is the way forward and long term I believe the more successful.

We've sold Modric Van Vaart Bale our creative nerve system and replaced them since the tenure of AVB with players inexperiecned to EPL elite football ie(top 1-6) none of our new signing have played in the EPL, so it was always going to take time if we're to be truely honest with ourselves.

 

[ShelfSide18]

I hate to put a spanner in this master plan, but this is the exact methodology employed by the last regime that actually yielded less points than AVB is earning, and saw us fail to win 9 home games a couple of years ago ?

The trouble with "ceding possession" and in deeper areas is that actually means the opposition having it in our 3rd, which can (and often does) lead to them scoring, especially when some of your defenders aren't exactly brilliant.

We may not (yet) have the wit to fully capitalise on the high press, possession game, but we sure as shit don't have the defensive wit to survive the "invite them onto our box" game either.

Some of the stupid things our players are doing are not necessarily going to be improved by doing them on the break, which requires quick thinking and adroit skill's that frankly some of ours lack.

Why is there so much hand ringing going on ? AVB is not perfect, but he's basically nursing a team that has lost it's three best players and introduced 8-9 new ones whilst notching up points at a very respectable rate.

Has anyone considered that the way we are playing might just be the best way for the bunch of players we have right now, a team in transition, and that the alternative's might be worse ?

I don't think they were quite getting at dropping so deep that we're inside our own box type philosophy here BC. Like you, I'm a possession based match control, high pressure, high line type of guy, but I do think in some cases rather than following the Barca/Bayern type model, the Atleti/Dortmund model is more suited to our squad right now. The half way press, break in numbers with pace and purpose, slightly more reactive and not as concerned with dominating possession (not to say they don't ever have more of the ball and press really high up).

Now I've preached the possession game for a while now, but I think the squad we have at the moment may just be perfect to play a little more reactively (not passively, or Redknapp lottery) and utilise the pace and power we have a little better. Give them a run up so to say, at the moment we have too many dimwits piled up failing to sneak in through the back door.

Then again, when Eriksen is back, Lamela is acclimatised, Capoue is established and Carroll realises playing lottery in the Championship is not the best idea then possession, death by passing and suffocating teams in their own third is a goer - right now, we just haven't showed any capability so far to break teams down with any regularity. The best side we had in recent times to do this, with Mod and VDV, was obviously wasted on the lottery merchant.

 

[Legend10]

Some funny shit!

 

[scat1620]

I hate to put a spanner in this master plan, but this is the exact methodology employed by the last regime that actually yielded less points than AVB is earning, and saw us fail to win 9 home games a couple of years ago ?

The last regime may have won less points per game than AVB, but when judged on full-season final league positions then AVB will have to finish at least 4th in each of the next two seasons to equal the success of Redknapp's tenure. You might prefer the points (do you?) but for me the final league position is the ultimate measure of success. As someone said yesterday, IMO a league title win with 75 points is better than coming second with 80 points. So until AVB delivers two consecutive 4th place (or better) finishes this year and next, I wouldn't be so hasty to take a sly dump on the Redknapp regime and say that AVB is definitely doing a better job than Redknapp at Spurs. He may end up doing just that (and I hope he does, because I want Spurs to have success) but even if you prefer AVB's style and methodology over Redknapp's the evidence doesn't yet exist to say that AVB is making Spurs more successful than Redknapp did.

The trouble with "ceding possession" and in deeper areas is that actually means the opposition having it in our 3rd, which can (and often does) lead to them scoring, especially when some of your defenders aren't exactly brilliant.

We may not (yet) have the wit to fully capitalise on the high press, possession game, but we sure as shit don't have the defensive wit to survive the "invite them onto our box" game either.

Some of the stupid things our players are doing are not necessarily going to be improved by doing them on the break, which requires quick thinking and adroit skill's that frankly some of ours lack.

Six of one (your opinion), half a dozen of the other (my opinion). You think we gain more defensively than we lose offensively by playing so high up the pitch; I disagree. I think that if we played a little deeper (note that I'm not advocating doing the opposite of what we're seeing now and saying we should sitting on our own 18 yard line rather than the opposition's) then the increased space our attacking players would have to play in would be of greater net benefit than any extra pressue our defence would face. It's all opinions on where a balance should lie here rather than an undeniable 'correct' answer, and that's about the beginning and the end of it. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Why is there so much hand ringing going on ? AVB is not perfect, but he's basically nursing a team that has lost it's three best players and introduced 8-9 new ones whilst notching up points at a very respectable rate.

Has anyone considered that the way we are playing might just be the best way for the bunch of players we have right now, a team in transition, and that the alternative's might be worse ?

Again, the likes of Mr Pink, I and the others calling for us to drop back down the pitch a little are wringing our hands because we disagree with the current tactical approach that AVB is taking, and think that we could achieve better performances (which will achieve better results in the medium- and long-terms) by using a different tactical approach to the current one. We have considered that the alternatives might be worse, but after due consideration we feel that the option we're taking now isn't the best one. It's an opinion. Others are available.

 

[markieboy]

Jesus fucking H Christ.

Has anyone ever benefitted from playing with Defoe ?


I'm sure this bollocks is just a media conspiracy by non spurs supporting hacks to fuck with our collective chi. Surely they should be writing about Moyes by now ?

Yeah but most of Moyes problems(not all,mind you) will be ironed out when Van Persie and Carrick come back into the team.
Not really sure who is going to save our ass.

 

[IMissTheWaddler]

Until I hear the champions league music on the WHL tannoy and see the CL badges on the players shirts then I don't care how many points we get. It's all about league position and if we are greedy then attractive football to get us there. It's really as simple as that

 

[Mr Pink]

I hate to put a spanner in this master plan, but this is the exact methodology employed by the last regime that actually yielded less points than AVB is earning, and saw us fail to win 9 home games a couple of years ago ?

The trouble with "ceding possession" and in deeper areas is that actually means the opposition having it in our 3rd, which can (and often does) lead to them scoring, especially when some of your defenders aren't exactly brilliant.

We may not (yet) have the wit to fully capitalise on the high press, possession game, but we sure as shit don't have the defensive wit to survive the "invite them onto our box" game either.

Some of the stupid things our players are doing are not necessarily going to be improved by doing them on the break, which requires quick thinking and adroit skill's that frankly some of ours lack.

Why is there so much hand ringing going on ? AVB is not perfect, but he's basically nursing a team that has lost it's three best players and introduced 8-9 new ones whilst notching up points at a very respectable rate.

Has anyone considered that the way we are playing might just be the best way for the bunch of players we have right now, a team in transition, and that the alternative's might be worse ?

I know its not as simple as just saying drop back and let the opponents enjoy more ball, and hey presto we've turned into a slick and dynamic counter attacking side which is scoring for fun and is still defensively sound.

I honestly don't know what the answer is. What I'm am fairly convinced about is that we don't have enough of the quality/type of player to play the way we are and expect to hurt teams often enough for this way to be wholly effective, not just from a defensive perspective. We just don't. Our lack of clear cut chances and goals completely support this.

 

[jezz]

Weve had chances weve fluffed them.
Anybody who thought we would just integrate 7 new bodies and smash everyone is away with the fairies.
Every manager is EPL was saying trying to integrate 7 new players would be hard.
Personally i thought we would be in a worse position than we are now.
We needed to grind out as many results as possible until we get in to the groove.
Erickson was a real blow, hopefully he will be back soon.
Him and lamela when they play together, they have looked good sheriff.
Heres to the second half of the season and see how it goes, making judgement calls after 13 games is asking for a kicking.

 

[ultimateloner]

I prefer us to be boring and win 1-0 than to open up.
We have won less points as a result of being more open. Hope AvB sticks to the 'defence first' strategy.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I don't think they were quite getting at dropping so deep that we're inside our own box type philosophy here BC. Like you, I'm a possession based match control, high pressure, high line type of guy, but I do think in some cases rather than following the Barca/Bayern type model, the Atleti/Dortmund model is more suited to our squad right now. The half way press, break in numbers with pace and purpose, slightly more reactive and not as concerned with dominating possession (not to say they don't ever have more of the ball and press really high up).

Now I've preached the possession game for a while now, but I think the squad we have at the moment may just be perfect to play a little more reactively (not passively, or Redknapp lottery) and utilise the pace and power we have a little better. Give them a run up so to say, at the moment we have too many dimwits piled up failing to sneak in through the back door.

Then again, when Eriksen is back, Lamela is acclimatised, Capoue is established and Carroll realises playing lottery in the Championship is not the best idea then possession, death by passing and suffocating teams in their own third is a goer - right now, we just haven't showed any capability so far to break teams down with any regularity. The best side we had in recent times to do this, with Mod and VDV, was obviously wasted on the lottery merchant.

I don't think that does suit the players we have. In the midfield none of Sandro, Paulinho and Dembele are adept at turning defence into quick transitional attacks. In advanced areas the players best suited to the fast counter (i.e. with pace) are Lennon, Walker, Townsend and Defoe - there's just about 1/2 a braincell between the three of them.

I don't trust some of our defenders much either, personally I think we are far better sticking to the high line and living with the occasional West ham's and Newcastle's skanking us, than inviting pressure onto any of our defenders. Until ManC it was the meanest system in the league. He needs to bite the popularity bullet and drop Dawson, it is really counter productive to both the high line and the possession game.

Personally I think the worst thing he could do is start to compromise. I think he needs to stick to his guns, get ruthless and pick the players that match the philosophy better than he is now. That doesn't mean there isn't room for a little tinkering and we can change the attacking bias around a little but Chadli, Lennon, Paulinho and Defoe as an attacking 4 is not conducive to intelligent, incisive interplay.

 

[Chris Flynn]

Yeah but most of Moyes problems(not all,mind you) will be ironed out when Van Persie and Carrick come back into the team.
Not really sure who is going to save our ass.

Rose. Never thought id say that. We will honestly look in much better shape with an actual left back

 

[markieboy]

I don't think that does suit the players we have. In the midfield none of Sandro, Paulinho and Dembele are adept at turning defence into quick transitional attacks. In advanced areas the players best suited to the fast counter (i.e. with pace) are Lennon, Walker, Townsend and Defoe - there's just about 1/2 a braincell between the three of them.

I don't trust some of our defenders much either, personally I think we are far better sticking to the high line and living with the occasional West ham's and Newcastle's skanking us, than inviting pressure onto any of our defenders. Until ManC it was the meanest system in the league. He needs to bite the popularity bullet and drop Dawson, it is really counter productive to both the high line and the possession game.

Personally I think the worst thing he could do is start to compromise. I think he needs to stick to his guns, get ruthless and pick the players that match the philosophy better than he is now. That doesn't mean there isn't room for a little tinkering and we can change the attacking bias around a little but Chadli, Lennon, Paulinho and Defoe as an attacking 4 is not conducive to intelligent, incisive interplay.

So basically you believe that half our squad are crap players and what the manager is doing is right?

 

[Mr Pink]

I don't think that does suit the players we have. In the midfield none of Sandro, Paulinho and Dembele are adept at turning defence into quick transitional attacks. In advanced areas the players best suited to the fast counter (i.e. with pace) are Lennon, Walker, Townsend and Defoe - there's just about 1/2 a braincell between the three of them.

I don't trust some of our defenders much either, personally I think we are far better sticking to the high line and living with the occasional West ham's and Newcastle's skanking us, than inviting pressure onto any of our defenders. Until ManC it was the meanest system in the league. He needs to bite the popularity bullet and drop Dawson, it is really counter productive to both the high line and the possession game.

Personally I think the worst thing he could do is start to compromise. I think he needs to stick to his guns, get ruthless and pick the players that match the philosophy better than he is now. That doesn't mean there isn't room for a little tinkering and we can change the attacking bias around a little but Chadli, Lennon, Paulinho and Defoe as an attacking 4 is not conducive to intelligent, incisive interplay.

You honestly think Chadli, Townsend, Lennon et al....are the right sort of players to play the way we're trying to? Good God no for me. They're totally the type to play as a counter attacking side. As is Paulinho, you only have to look at his involvement in some of our key moments in recent months. Soldado's goal at Villa, the counter to release Soldado against United, his chance the other night.

The reason why Townsend looks lost playing for us at the moment is this style of play is not suiting him either. He was electric against Tibsli, or whatever you call them, and that was on the counter. He's looked better for England as well, getting more chances breaking from deeper positions to attack the space. With us he's crowded out every week and is forced into taking wild sort of pot shots on.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you on this. Our squad is much more suited to a counter attacking game.

 

[Mr Pink]

I don't think they were quite getting at dropping so deep that we're inside our own box type philosophy here BC. Like you, I'm a possession based match control, high pressure, high line type of guy, but I do think in some cases rather than following the Barca/Bayern type model, the Atleti/Dortmund model is more suited to our squad right now. The half way press, break in numbers with pace and purpose, slightly more reactive and not as concerned with dominating possession (not to say they don't ever have more of the ball and press really high up).

Now I've preached the possession game for a while now, but I think the squad we have at the moment may just be perfect to play a little more reactively (not passively, or Redknapp lottery) and utilise the pace and power we have a little better. Give them a run up so to say, at the moment we have too many dimwits piled up failing to sneak in through the back door.

Then again, when Eriksen is back, Lamela is acclimatised, Capoue is established and Carroll realises playing lottery in the Championship is not the best idea then possession, death by passing and suffocating teams in their own third is a goer - right now, we just haven't showed any capability so far to break teams down with any regularity. The best side we had in recent times to do this, with Mod anAbd VDV, was obviously wasted on the lottery merchant.

Absolutely this.

We look far more adept and threatening on the counter when we break with pace and purpose. Its not even a debate actually.

 

[Mr Pink]

I prefer us to be boring and win 1-0 than to open up.
We have won less points as a result of being more open. Hope AvB sticks to the 'defence first' strategy.

Its not about opening up. Its about adjusting our style of play and becoming more flexible when the situation warrants it, ie not always playing the same way. Our way at the moment has served us exceptionally well from a defensive point of view, so for a lot of away games in particular I have no issue with it.

Don't be fooled into thinking that is some wanting the openness and lottery style we saw under Harry at times - it most certainly isn't. It is, however, about recognising the strengths of our squad and being able to capitalise on these strengths when its appropriate to do so.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

Honestly, @BC. If AVB doesn't compromise, he will most likely get himself fired. Do you accept that?

 

[CowInAComa]

Honestly, @BC. If AVB doesn't compromise, he will most likely get himself fired. Do you accept that?

i would certainly hope so

 

[CowInAComa]

I prefer us to be boring and win 1-0 than to open up.
We have won less points as a result of being more open. Hope AvB sticks to the 'defence first' strategy.

well that system saw us safely into 9th. so yeah lets stick with it.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

I prefer us to be boring and win 1-0 than to open up.
We have won less points as a result of being more open. Hope AvB sticks to the 'defence first' strategy.

It's not 'defence first', it's 'possession first'. And we haven't been 'more open', we've just started to lose the ball as a result of becoming too desperate to force chances.

The whole point of defending by retaining the ball and starving the opposition of chances is that it isn't incompatible with attacking and scoring goals. You can 'defend' at the same time as you apply relentless pressure to the opposition goal.

It's a very good tactical approach, but it needs the cutting edge that is provided by a change of pace whenever the attack approaches the opposition box, or the result is what we have been watching: endless prowling outside the area, without actually making anything happen, ending in a loss of possession, a blocked through ball or a long range shot.

I think the basic, underlying principle is not only good, but could be vastly successful, but it won't produce goals until the attacking block learns that you have to double the pace and introduce one-touch passing and off-the-ball movement whenever you get near the opposition penalty area.

As a result of chronically failing to do that, the whole team gets visibly frustrated as our games progress and players start trying inappropriate/desperate measures to score; this, in turn, drags teammates out of position, leads to loss of possession and makes us susceptible to counter-attacks. Thus it defeats the whole intention of defending by retaining the ball.

 

[ShelfSide18]

I don't think that does suit the players we have. In the midfield none of Sandro, Paulinho and Dembele are adept at turning defence into quick transitional attacks. In advanced areas the players best suited to the fast counter (i.e. with pace) are Lennon, Walker, Townsend and Defoe - there's just about 1/2 a braincell between the three of them.

I don't trust some of our defenders much either, personally I think we are far better sticking to the high line and living with the occasional West ham's and Newcastle's skanking us, than inviting pressure onto any of our defenders. Until ManC it was the meanest system in the league. He needs to bite the popularity bullet and drop Dawson, it is really counter productive to both the high line and the possession game.

Personally I think the worst thing he could do is start to compromise. I think he needs to stick to his guns, get ruthless and pick the players that match the philosophy better than he is now. That doesn't mean there isn't room for a little tinkering and we can change the attacking bias around a little but Chadli, Lennon, Paulinho and Defoe as an attacking 4 is not conducive to intelligent, incisive interplay.

You can still apply a high line and squeeze the play, it's more of our off and on the ball strategy that may need a little tweaking here, hence the Barc/Bayern v Atleti/Dortmund comparison.

Atleti and Dortmund press a little differently than a lot of the possession first teams, who overload areas of the pitch with 3/4 players and when they lose the ball they can press the ball quickly as 3/4 of them they are in close proximity to the ball - hence the 6 second rule to recover the ball. I've noticed we do this and it's common knowledge that AVB admires Pep a lot, who was instrumental in that tactic becoming widespread. What Atleti do is a little more considered, they don't always rapidly press the ball when it's lost, but they drop and then press around half way, and they will try to intercept a lateral ball which is perfect to start a quick transition. Simeone is known to put poles out in the shape of the opposition next to come, and ask his players to react to each of them as if that pole had the ball and he goes batshit mental when they get their positions to press the ball wrong!

Dembele can drive forward, Paulino breaks forward well, and well, you'd rather give Lennon and Townsend a run up than ask them to engage their minimal grey matter in a really condensed space - it's not about entirely changing style, just being a little bit more reactive and breaking quickly and directly which may result in turning the ball over a bit more than we have been (which is of course a danger I admit, you just have to be excellent at managing those transitions as the teams mentioned above are).

If AVB does stick to his guns, I won't complain too much - I am deep down a possession control guy and I do enjoy us habitually dominating the ball in most games these days, and I enjoy the defensive security it has given us, but we've been brainlessly banging on the front door all season now and that needs to change, otherwise AVB will be gone as much as I think that would be utter madness.