Ratings vs Everton

[Flashspur]

Great game overall and the result flattered them. Kane MOM. Thought we lost control when Dembele went off and let them back into it. Winks is a different player and doesn't control the MF as much although that pass to Dele was sublime. Overall a great team performance and its good to see Ben Davies put in a good shift as well.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Le Fete de Somnabulisme

Let's start at the start. I was a little trepidatious that a wily pragmatist like Koeman, with his side on a good run, would have done his homework on us and might make things very difficult today, and the 433/4321 structure he went with did have me a little concerned pre match, I thought if applied well it could pose us questions, or at the very least have good answers to the ones we might pose. I was wondering if Poch might try to second guess this, and actually mix it up today, revert to 4231 or even, dare I say (to dare is to do Rodders to dare is to do) go completely off piste and risk a 433/4321 type format himself, maybe chucking Winks into the mix and dropping Dier. But on balance, I like the 3421/3241 etc etc and wasn't to perturbed to see us stick with it. My minor gripe with it remains Dembele, he's robust, he's pretty dependable, but is a tempo black hole. But that minor grumble aside, I was content with the side and structure selected.

What then unfurled was like a mutual sleepwalking festival. Having got his team and format pretty right, Koeman, or his team, just didn't get the application right, it was a bit like the Stoke game all over again, they didn't get about us, make things difficult for us, and they didn't exactly park a bus either. And though we, a team with better habits endemic these days than most we face, were able, through these endemic habits to dominate, it was like their lethargy hypnotised us and we were on autopilot at times as well.

The first half hour was decent enough, I guess, we pinged the ball about reasonably well, showed some good intentions, got a goal up out of absolutely nothing courtesy of Prince Harold of Kane, but from then on it was like a Danny Boyle zombie movie, with both teams like legions of undead, following each other round until occasionally getting stirred up by the motion or scent of a living thing, before it quickly disappeared again behind the doors of The Winchester. Like all good zombies, there was menace there, but there was lots of trundling in a bumbly trance too.

We were the better side, they were actually pretty woeful throughout, they even seemed to surprise themselves that they got to 1-2 (thanks to a fortuitous - for them - slip by the otherwise excellent Vertonghen), but even that didn't wake them from their slumber, and the cavalry charge for an equaliser that I was expecting never materialised. Instead the game kind of became a bit of fiasco, with first us adding a clever (Winks) and cheeky (Alli) third, only for them to get another unlikely goal (two shots on target I believe they had and scored with both) when our defence when from sleep to coma a minute later.

In the end this was a scoreline that suggests way more excitement and than was actually present.

For me, today, comedy slip aside, I thought Vertonghen was probably the MOTM, a pretty imperious display for the most part and also our most energetic attacker at times. Kane has to get a mention as he pretty much won the game for us with two superb pieces of play, the first an Exocet out of nothing, the second a beautifully composed finish after a good bit of pressing from Dembele and Alli. But apart from that it's pretty slim pickings. I thought Wanyama had one of his least impressive games in a Spurs shirt and was decidedly meh, I thought Dembele was like a fucking turtle in a windsock all game with the ball, and I thought neither showed for, or saw enough of it. There were many times I watched our CB's looking for a pass, with Walker and Davies having disappeared into the horizon, and Dembele and Wanyama just weren't anywhere to be seen. Eriksen received the ball more than the pair of them, which really shouldn't be happening in games like this.

Davies was actually more involved today than Walker, possibly a first, but neither blew me away with what they contributed. I saw Davies getting quite a bit of praise but I can't say he did anything that overly impressed me offensively and I think defensively he made a couple of really poor decisions, selling himself badly.

Individual

Lloris - Didn't think he did great on the first goal but maybe that's harsh.

Walker - OK - did play a lovely ball through for Eriksen.

Dier - Decent

Alderweireld - OK

Vertonghen - Very good, bar a couple of loose passes and that slip.

Davies - Livelier than normal, clearly Poch had rubbed some vicks up his arse pre match, still very meh for me.

Wanyama - Not his best game.

Dembele - We've got to upgrade what he offers with the ball next season. He's got some good attributes, but is like a tempo vortex, sucking the life out of any move with his cautious twirling, a lot of the time.

Eriksen - OK

Alli - Did work hard at times without the ball. But A fuck of a lot of bumbling today, and a fuck of a lot of frittering away the ball. Then a great finish.

Kane - Not his best game overall, but two superb finishes. Wasted a couple of the best chances as well - didn't dink the one he should of, and linked the one he should have leathered.

 

[scat1620]

Beece, very much enjoy reading your ratings post as always, but your zombie metaphors are all over the shop. Zombies in Danny Boyle films run around like Ngolo Kante on speed, and The Winchester is in Edgar Wright's Shaun Of The Dead. Sort it aaaht, you sigh.

 

[rambu]

I was worried for Jan when he's injured; so great to see him got back quickly and more importantly, not missing a beat.

What's up with him lately though, or actually for the whole season more or less, that he's been so aggressive going forward like his first season here; making up for Rose in a way? Love to see him do more and would want to see Jan at LWB and Davies in the back three from time to time.

 

[Xeeleeyid]

I was worried for Jan when he's injured; so great to see him got back quickly and more importantly, not missing a beat.

What's up with him lately though, or actually for the whole season more or less, that he's been so aggressive going forward like his first season here; making up for Rose in a way? Love to see him do more and would want to see Jan at LWB and Davies in the back three from time to time.

The three at the back should in theory allow any of the defenders to bring the ball out of the back in an aggressive manner. Both our left and right CB have played full-back before as well, so they should both be natural at bombing forward. Jan has mastered the art of timing and confidence doing this in the formation better than Dier so far. Dier hasn't quite made the marauding funs forward that he did in his first season with us. Yet.

 

[tiger666]

What's up with him lately though, or actually for the whole season more or less, that he's been so aggressive going forward

Maybe he's following instructions from the manager. God forbid..

 

[Buggsy61]

With an hour gone things were going very well indeed. 2-0 up against a decent in-form team, we'd made the breakthrough(s) against a team set up to stifle and offer us no space to play.

The two goals were very different, but both enjoyable. Kane's strike was as a clean a hit as you will get from 30 odd yards, and kicked the game into life for us as we then had our best spell of the game creating our best chances. The second was an alert piece of hustle by Dembele and then Alli to win the ball back very quickly high up the pitch and put Kane in to do what he does best. Two contrasting goals but a perfect illustration that you need that mix of both skill and hard work/determination to win football matches.

Most of the hard work was done...

Most, but not all. The game wasn't quite over, we hadn't yet got over the finishing line.

There was ultimately no harm done, but hopefully it's a gentle reminder that you shouldn't think you can coast through a game in the latter stages, which I think we were guilty of. Shortly after going two up we seemed to down tools. Content to drop off, and let them have their first spells of possession of the match and almost challenging them to break us down. As ever though, it only takes a moment for a goal to be scored and it to all start to look a bit different. The opposition has belief and momentum, the crowd gets jittery, it's not easy for players to switch back on physically and particularly mentally... For me it's a dangerous game to play.

A lot of people will say it was an unfortunate slip that let them into it, but really the goal was just a lack of intensity across the park. They've got the ball in midfield, no pressure. Ball goes left, their man breezed past two, picks a pass through non-existent lines. Lukaku can take it and turn under no pressure... At this point if there hadn't been a slip, he has an untracked Barkley arriving on his right shoulder to play in one on one. It wasn't one individuals ill fortune or error, the team were punished for a drop in intensity. It also wasn't just defensively, Kane's miss at 2-1 I think was a prime example also - if not mentally relaxed then I think he just smashes that as per.

We then got both sides gifting each other a set piece goal... Not much to say here but very soft defending and left the game ending on a calamitous note.

As I said, no harm done... But a lesson not to coast and think the job is complete until the final whistle is blown.


Lloris - Not a huge amount to do.

Dier - Ok, but yet another set piece goal where he hasn't covered himself in glory.

Alderweireld - Ok, also seemed a little culpable on first watch for the last goal.

Vertonghen - Well... First half some pretty ropey passes and trying to force it a bit too much. Second half some barnstorming runs taking the game to them. Then the slip led to a goal, but as I've said that was the most obvious part of a long list of errors from us.

Walker - I'll be honest, I can't really recall much of what he did, with Walker I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing. A few decent passes that he did pick out that do come to mind.

Davies - Was fine, a few nice moments. But fucking hell some of you lot are easily impressed...

Wanyama - Unlucky with his shot against the post, but I'm going to disagree with the majority again - I thought he had a pretty 'meh' game.

Dembele - Solid enough. Great alert piece of pressing for the second goal.

Eriksen - Thought he had a decent first half, but waned as the game got into the latter stages.

Alli - Lovely flick for the goal. Ok all round performance and worked pretty hard today.

Kane - After criticising him only a few weeks ago... Delighted to say that it's all falling into place currently. He's more involved in the game, hassling and bullying defenders, running channels, and the icing on the cake in smashing long-range efforts into the net. Whether it's confidence, he's injury free, or there was a kick up the backside, it doesn't matter - long may these performances continue.

Subs:
Winks - Nice pass, but it was awful defending.

Sissoko & Janssen - n/a.

How on earth did you manage to collect 2 spam ratings for that post. Would like to think it was just fat fingers on an I phone, but if not some people on this site are just incredible!.

 

[JonnySpurs]

Le Fete de Somnabulisme

Let's start at the start. I was a little trepidatious that a wily pragmatist like Koeman, with his side on a good run, would have done his homework on us and might make things very difficult today, and the 433/4321 structure he went with did have me a little concerned pre match, I thought if applied well it could pose us questions, or at the very least have good answers to the ones we might pose. I was wondering if Poch might try to second guess this, and actually mix it up today, revert to 4231 or even, dare I say (to dare is to do Rodders to dare is to do) go completely off piste and risk a 433/4321 type format himself, maybe chucking Winks into the mix and dropping Dier. But on balance, I like the 3421/3241 etc etc and wasn't to perturbed to see us stick with it. My minor gripe with it remains Dembele, he's robust, he's pretty dependable, but is a tempo black hole. But that minor grumble aside, I was content with the side and structure selected.

What then unfurled was like a mutual sleepwalking festival. Having got his team and format pretty right, Koeman, or his team, just didn't get the application right, it was a bit like the Stoke game all over again, they didn't get about us, make things difficult for us, and they didn't exactly park a bus either. And though we, a team with better habits endemic these days than most we face, were able, through these endemic habits to dominate, it was like their lethargy hypnotised us and we were on autopilot at times as well.

The first half hour was decent enough, I guess, we pinged the ball about reasonably well, showed some good intentions, got a goal up out of absolutely nothing courtesy of Prince Harold of Kane, but from then on it was like a Danny Boyle zombie movie, with both teams like legions of undead, following each other round until occasionally getting stirred up by the motion or scent of a living thing, before it quickly disappeared again behind the doors of The Winchester. Like all good zombies, there was menace there, but there was lots of trundling in a bumbly trance too.

We were the better side, they were actually pretty woeful throughout, they even seemed to surprise themselves that they got to 1-2 (thanks to a fortuitous - for them - slip by the otherwise excellent Vertonghen), but even that didn't wake them from their slumber, and the cavalry charge for an equaliser that I was expecting never materialised. Instead the game kind of became a bit of fiasco, with first us adding a clever (Winks) and cheeky (Alli) third, only for them to get another unlikely goal (two shots on target I believe they had and scored with both) when our defence when from sleep to coma a minute later.

In the end this was a scoreline that suggests way more excitement and than was actually present.

For me, today, comedy slip aside, I thought Vertonghen was probably the MOTM, a pretty imperious display for the most part and also our most energetic attacker at times. Kane has to get a mention as he pretty much won the game for us with two superb pieces of play, the first an Exocet out of nothing, the second a beautifully composed finish after a good bit of pressing from Dembele and Alli. But apart from that it's pretty slim pickings. I thought Wanyama had one of his least impressive games in a Spurs shirt and was decidedly meh, I thought Dembele was like a fucking turtle in a windsock all game with the ball, and I thought neither showed for, or saw enough of it. There were many times I watched our CB's looking for a pass, with Walker and Davies having disappeared into the horizon, and Dembele and Wanyama just weren't anywhere to be seen. Eriksen received the ball more than the pair of them, which really shouldn't be happening in games like this.

Davies was actually more involved today than Walker, possibly a first, but neither blew me away with what they contributed. I saw Davies getting quite a bit of praise but I can't say he did anything that overly impressed me offensively and I think defensively he made a couple of really poor decisions, selling himself badly.

Individual

Lloris - Didn't think he did great on the first goal but maybe that's harsh.

Walker - OK - did play a lovely ball through for Eriksen.

Dier - Decent

Alderweireld - OK

Vertonghen - Very good, bar a couple of loose passes and that slip.

Davies - Livelier than normal, clearly Poch had rubbed some vicks up his arse pre match, still very meh for me.

Wanyama - Not his best game.

Dembele - We've got to upgrade what he offers with the ball next season. He's got some good attributes, but is like a tempo vortex, sucking the life out of any move with his cautious twirling, a lot of the time.

Eriksen - OK

Alli - Did work hard at times without the ball. But A fuck of a lot of bumbling today, and a fuck of a lot of frittering away the ball. Then a great finish.

Kane - Not his best game overall, but two superb finishes. Wasted a couple of the best chances as well.

I've decided that you're no longer allowed to use the following phrases as they have been badly over-utilised this season:

- Turtle in a windsock. Particularly when describing Dembele's performances, especially when everyone else can see how vital he is to our control in midfield. Winks is great and may well be his eventual successor but you must be able to see how vital MD's role is!? We still scored 3 goals yesterday and we have been free scoring for much of the season so our tempo can't be THAT bad, surely?

- Bumbling about. Particulalry when describing the performances of Alli or Kane.

- Meh. Particulalry when describing the performance of any player that, let's face it, you can't be arsed to describe.

If anyone else has any others they'd like to pull BC up on, please feel free.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I've decided that you're no longer allowed to use the following metaphors as they have been badly over-utilised this season:

- Turtle in a windsock. Particularly when describing Dembele's performances, especially when everyone else can see how vital he is to our control in midfield. Winks is great and may well be his eventual successor but you must be able to see how vital MD's role is!? We still scored 3 goals yesterday and we have been free scoring for much of the season so our tempo can't be THAT bad, surely?

This is factually incorrect.

Without Dembele this season ( 9 games he hasn't started), we have averaged 2.3 points, scored an average of 2.1 goals and conceded an average of 0.5.

With Dembele (18 games he has started) we have averaged 1.9 points, averaging 1.8 goals scored and conceded an average of 1.2 (more than double that without him).

Further more, I would add that in the 18 games he's started, he's been subbed off 13 of them and has (assuming 3m of injury time at the end of each game - and that's usually a minimum) missed a total of 210 minutes (that's two whole games and 20 minutes) of the ones he has started.

 

[HildoSpur]

This is factually incorrect.

Without Dembele this season ( 9 games he hasn't started), we have averaged 2.3 points, scored an average of 2.1 goals and conceded an average of 0.5.

With Dembele (18 games he has started) we have averaged 1.9 points, averaging 1.8 goals scored and conceded an average of 1.2 (more than double that without him).

Further more, I would add that in the 18 games he's started, he's been subbed off 13 of them and has (assuming 3m of injury time at the end of each game - and that's usually a minimum) missed a total of 210 minutes (that's two whole games and 20 minutes) of the ones he has started.

I agree to be honest, I love Dembele but I think his position could be replaced in the summer. His end product just is not good enough for where we want to be.

 

[JonnySpurs]

This is factually incorrect.

Without Dembele this season ( 9 games he hasn't started), we have averaged 2.3 points, scored an average of 2.1 goals and conceded an average of 0.5.

With Dembele (18 games he has started) we have averaged 1.9 points, averaging 1.8 goals scored and conceded an average of 1.2 (more than double that without him).

Further more, I would add that in the 18 games he's started, he's been subbed off 13 of them and has (assuming 3m of injury time at the end of each game - and that's usually a minimum) missed a total of 210 minutes (that's two whole games and 20 minutes) of the ones he has started.

Come on BC, the difference in the with and without here is negligible. Not to mention the fact that we're not factoring in the opponents, which system we used, what other players were out injured at the time etc.

Look I get it, he lacks some cutting edge in the final third but I would argue that his role is to work in the middle section of the field, winning the ball back and retaining possession in tight areas in order to move it on to players like Eriksen and Alli who can then do damage with assists and goals. I recognise that he could do this quicker but it seems to me that you simply don't like him and therefore he can never garner any credit from you, regardless of how well he plays.

It can't be a coincidence that virtually every current player in our squad that has been asked the question has stated that Dembele is our best player. Whether us as fans believe he is or not is largely irrelevant because his value is CLEAR to Poch and to his teammates.

I'm not saying that we couldn't upgrade on him but equally it frustrates me when his value and contribution is so underrated.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Come on BC, the difference in the with and without here is negligible. Not to mention the fact that we're not factoring in the opponents, which system we used, what other players were out injured at the time etc.

Look I get it, he lacks some cutting edge in the final third but I would argue that his role is to work in the middle section of the field, winning the ball back and retaining possession in tight areas in order to move it on to players like Eriksen and Alli who can then do damage with assists and goals. I recognise that he could do this quicker but it seems to me that you simply don't like him and therefore he can never garner any credit from you, regardless of how well he plays.

It can't be a coincidence that virtually every current player in our squad that has been asked the question has stated that Dembele is our best player. Whether us as fans believe he is or not is largely irrelevant because his value is CLEAR to Poch and to his teammates.

I'm not saying that we couldn't upgrade on him but equally it frustrates me when his value and contribution is so underrated.

If that's your repost I don't think you do get it. It's not just that he lacks cutting edge in the final third, I could live with that, it's that he lacks it in the middle third too. Wanyama is there to break the opposition's rhythm, Dembele should be doing a bit of that but also setting ours. He doesn't. We need to get the ball to Eriksen and Alli quicker than we do a lot of the time, and part of the reason we don't is that Dembele likes to take too many touches and triple check the path is clear before making any pass.

It's not that I don't like Dembele, it's that I see flaws in his game and how they impact the group dynamic. I've often praised his performances, acknowledged what he's good at, accepted that there are days when his contribution has been important, several times last year I gave him MOTM. I don't dislike him, I don't dislike any of this group, but that doesn't mean I think they are all perfect either, and to criticise them individually doesn't mean I have some kind of agenda against them as people.

I'm not saying he's never got a role to fill and when he's there he never does it well, or that his remit will be a piece of piss to improve on.

What managers value and the decisions they make aren't always infallible or indisputable either. Mourinho playing Pogba in a CM2 for a third of a season for example. Stupid.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

If that's your repost I don't think you do get it. It's not just that he lacks cutting edge in the final third, I could live with that, it's that he lacks it in the middle third too. Wanyama is there to break the opposition's rhythm, Dembele should be doing a bit of that but also setting ours. He doesn't. We need to get the ball to Eriksen and Alli quicker than we do a lot of the time, and part of the reason we don't is that Dembele likes to take too many touches and triple check the path is clear before making any pass.

It's not that I don't like Dembele, it's that I see flaws in his game and how they impact the group dynamic. I've often praised his performances, acknowledged what he's good at, accepted that there are days when his contribution has been important, several times last year I gave him MOTM. I don't dislike him, I don't dislike any of this group, but that doesn't mean I think they are all perfect either, and to criticise them individually doesn't mean I have some kind of agenda against them as people.

I'm not saying he's never got a role to fill and when he's there he never does it well, or that his remit will be a piece of piss to improve on.

What managers value and the decisions they make aren't always infallible or indisputable either. Mourinho playing Pogba in a CM2 for a this of a season for example. Stupid.

Would you keep Dembele if we did buy another CM?

 

[JonnySpurs]

If that's your repost I don't think you do get it. It's not just that he lacks cutting edge in the final third, I could live with that, it's that he lacks it in the middle third too. Wanyama is there to break the opposition's rhythm, Dembele should be doing a bit of that but also setting ours. He doesn't. We need to get the ball to Eriksen and Alli quicker than we do a lot of the time, and part of the reason we don't is that Dembele likes to take too many touches and triple check the path is clear before making any pass.

It's not that I don't like Dembele, it's that I see flaws in his game and how they impact the group dynamic. I've often praised his performances, acknowledged what he's good at, accepted that there are days when his contribution has been important, several times last year I gave him MOTM. I don't dislike him, I don't dislike any of this group, but that doesn't mean I think they are all perfect either, and to criticise them individually doesn't mean I have some kind of agenda against them as people.

I'm not saying he's never got a role to fill and when he's there he never does it well, or that his remit will be a piece of piss to improve on.

What managers value and the decisions they make aren't always infallible or indisputable either. Mourinho playing Pogba in a CM2 for a this of a season for example. Stupid.

Fair enough.

I referenced the final third bit as that is often the first criticism of Dembele in that he doesn't get enough goals or assists but sure, I hear what you're saying and can certainly agree with much of it. I still feel that he does a good job of moving the ball on but I accept that he can also take too many touches and get caught on the ball a little too often.

For the record though I don't think I suggested that you don't like him as a person, merely that it seems you dont rate him as a player as I can't recall too many positive comments from you about him but maybe I've just missed them.

 

[Hazardousman]

I know I am late on this because my internet and phone has been down for four days but I thought we played excellently, we really are on a fantastic run of form at home currently, we need to take that form into our away games, still very very tight at the top and City have a game in hand on us.

That being said, I thought we were brilliant yesterday, Everton are not a bad side and they were also in fantastic form, shame we conceded two goals, I thought the first was a rare mistake from Vertonghen, can't criticise him too much as he slipped and it happens, he isn't perfect.

The second was just bloody sloppy from us, Dier especially, he fell asleep, all the players did, after scoring a 3rd they thought they had the game outright won, can't afford to be getting sloppy like that, need to stay switched on until the final whistle.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Would you keep Dembele if we did buy another CM?

Depends who we bought I guess. I wouldn't be devastated if we sold him regardless, as I do think his importance to this side is over estimated and I think his influence is only going to diminish anyway, even this season he's looked less effective at doing the things he's good at IMO.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Fair enough.

I referenced the final third bit as that is often the first criticism of Dembele in that he doesn't get enough goals or assists but sure, I hear what you're saying and can certainly agree with much of it. I still feel that he does a good job of moving the ball on but I accept that he can also take too many touches and get caught on the ball a little too often.

For the record though I don't think I suggested that you don't like him as a person, merely that it seems you dont rate him as a player as I can't recall too many positive comments from you about him but maybe I've just missed them.

I have never been a massive fan of Dembele as a player, even before we bought him, as I don't really think as a CM he's quick thinking enough and as an AM he's creative or productive enough. I think his strength is that he's very robust, very hard to knock off the ball, and I think fans quite like any player that can dribble.

I think last year playing him and Dier was often crudely effective because it was like a risk averse insurance policy at times to the tactical application and personnel carrying them out. But even then there were many, many games where I felt we could have been even better with just one of them and a more metronomic player (like Mason, Bentaleb, Winks, Onomah etc etc) in there to move the ball and set some tempo.

I just think the arrival of Wanyama has well and truly negated the need for two risk averse insurance men. We need to get more alacrity, tempo and vision into that area of the pitch.

 

[Blake Griffin]

Depends who we bought I guess. I wouldn't be devastated if we sold him regardless, as I do think his importance to this side is over estimated and I think his influence is only going to diminish anyway, even this season he's looked less effective at doing the things he's good at IMO.

like when coleman left him chugging down our inside left and ended up conceding a foul right outside our box, exactly the same thing happened last week with arnautovic but that time he couldn't get near enough to stop him. i don't think dembele gets beaten there in previous years.

i just don't like that we're ok with our more advanced cm having no effect beyond the halfway line. very little forward drive with or without the ball, zero creativity, zero goals. i get what he does and maybe i just need to adapt to central midfield now being a defensive position but i think in some games we could do with a bit more from that area.

 

[mpickard2087]

Don't actually agree that Dembele is our more advanced central midfielder. May just be down to playing style, but for me Wanyama has more of a box to box role and freedom to roam (especially vertically) both with and without the ball.

Not sure what it says about Dembele's physical state though when he is primarily sitting and got someone else doing the majority of the running, and yet is still getting withdrawn about the 75 mins mark most games. Must really need wrapping up in cotton wool.

 

[EastLondonYid]

So much shit on here. We are pissing all over teams. Totally dominating. And we have so many know it alls slagging off Dembele and walker. Stop fucking winging this is a proper TEAM. Well drilled and one im so proud of COYFucking Spurs. Nothing is perfect. Dembele gets too much grief on here....seriously getting boring