Ratings vs Everton

[Bus-Conductor]

I think you've completely missed the point, I'm talking about a bit of tactical diversity, I don't see how previous heat maps have anything to do with it, just cos heat maps place one line up in certain positions doesn't mean another line up has to match them. I find it very ironic u feel the need to pidgeon hole players by using heat maps when you preach tactical diversity like some kind of guru, horses for courses.

Yeah I did miss your point, and I still have no idea really what your point is/was. Part of the problem was your original post made very little sense to me, as it quoted an answer that I gave to someone else about playing Eriksen in a CM2, in which I didn't even mention formation and you started talking about formations.

No idea how you conclude from what I have posted in this thread that I want Eriksen pigeon holed, it's more the opposite, I don't want him shackled in a CM2 - which is what I was saying to @spurs9 I like the freer role he has as a hybrid 8/10 and I posted his touch map to show how wide and deep his remit covers now.

How the fuck that becomes me wanting to pigeon hole him or being averse to tactical diversity I have no fucking idea.

 

[mill]

Yeah I did miss your point, and I still have no idea really what your point is/was. Part of the problem was your original post made no very little sense to me, as it quoted an answer that I gave to someone el playing Eriksen in a CM2, in which I didn't even mention formation and you started talking about formations.

No idea how you conclude from what I have posted in this thread that I want Eriksen pigeon holed, it's more the opposite, I don't want him shackled in a CM2 - which is what I was saying to @spurs9 I like the freer role he has as a hybrid 8/10 and I posted his touch map to show how wide and deep his remit covers now.

How the fuck that becomes me wanting to pigeon hole him or being averse to tactical diversity I have no fucking idea.

Yeah I did miss your point, and I still have no idea really what your point is/was. Part of the problem was your original post made no very little sense to me, as it quoted an answer that I gave to someone else about playing Eriksen in a CM2, in which I didn't even mention formation and you started talking about formations.

No idea how you conclude from what I have posted in this thread that I want Eriksen pigeon holed, it's more the opposite, I don't want him shackled in a CM2 - which is what I was saying to @spurs9 I like the freer role he has as a hybrid 8/10 and I posted his touch map to show how wide and deep his remit covers now.

How the fuck that becomes me wanting to pigeon hole him or being averse to tactical diversity I have no fucking idea.

You said you don't like eriksen in a cm 2 but I tried to point out to you it wouldn't be a cm 2 as such, you think he'd be shackled where I think he'd have plenty of freedom, this is going nowhere though so might as well leave it here

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You said you don't like eriksen in a cm 2 but I tried to point out to you it wouldn't be a cm 2 as such, you think he'd be shackled where I think he'd have plenty of freedom, this is going nowhere though so might as well leave it here

But this is what I also said:

I'm not convinced playing Eriksen in a CM2 would be right for every occasion (or most) and I like him much more in the 10/8 hybrid role he's playing lately in the 3421. He's not lazy off the ball, he presses well (probably better - or more intelligently - than any of our front group) but I'm not sure I want him shackled and water carrying for 90 minutes a game.

My ideal, if we are playing a CM2, is Wanyama and someone like Tolisso/Tielemans/Winks/Onomah (eventually) with Eriksen in that 10/8 hybrid role. Best of both worlds.

The other answer would be switch to a 433, to accommodate Eriksen as an "8", Alli and a pacey or creative dribbling AM/wide forward.

I think we are more or less agreeing, unless you are saying you actually agree with S9 and would be happy to see Eriksen in a CM2. In that case I don't for the reasons I've given.

 

[mill]

But this is what I also said:



I think we are more or less agreeing, unless you are saying you actually agree with S9 and would be happy to see Eriksen in a CM2. In that case I don't for the reasons I've given.

I think you see the cm 2 from one point of view and a very rigid one at that whereas I think there's more to it than that depending on personel,

Go watch how bielsa's team that won the 2004 olympics played, granted it was only the olympics but it's the best example I can think of, the players you'd consider the 'cm 2' were mascherano and d'alessandro, seems a decent enough comparison in wanyama and eriksen imo

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think you see the cm 2 from one point of view and a very rigid one at that whereas I think there's more to it than that depending on personel,

Go watch how bielsa's team that won the 2004 olympics played, granted it was only the olympics but it's the best example I can think of, the players you'd consider the 'cm 2' were mascherano and d'alessandro, seems a decent enough comparison in wanyama and eriksen imo

I think you've got it back to front. I was one of the minority calling for us to play a more progressive type in our CM2 last year instead of the belt and braces of Dier and Dembele. I just don't think Eriksen is the man for it -most weeks - for various reasons. One is, I think unless it was a really easy game (and there are very few of them) though he isn't lazy, he isn't tenacious either, and most weeks you need both in a CM2 to be defensively proficient to some degree at least. Another is that in our current side his role as a hybrid 8/10 partly suits him and us better IMO, and there's no one else at the moment who I'd rather play in his hybrid role, which does have him dropping back into CM areas a lot but also has him "freer" in more forward areas a lot more than he would if put into a CM2 with us in this team right now.

 

[mill]

I think you've got it back to front. I was one of the minority calling for us to play a more progressive type in our CM2 last year instead of the belt and braces of Dier and Dembele. I just don't think Eriksen is the man for it -most weeks - for various reasons. One is, I think unless it was a really easy game (and there are very few of them) though he isn't lazy, he isn't tenacious either, and most weeks you need both in a CM2 to be defensively proficient to some degree at least. Another is that in our current side his role as a hybrid 8/10 partly suits him and us better IMO, and there's no one else at the moment who I'd rather play in his hybrid role, which does have him dropping back into CM areas a lot but also has him "freer" in more forward areas a lot more than he would if put into a CM2 with us in this team right now.

I wouldn't advocate eriksen in a cm 2 in a back 4 set up but I see 3 at the back as a different set up personally.

Furthers my point you seem to be too rigid in your thinking

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I wouldn't advocate eriksen in a cm 2 in a back 4 set up but I see 3 at the back as a different set up personally.

Furthers my point you seem to be too rigid in your thinking

If not fancying Eriksen in a CM2 makes me too rigid, then maybe I am. Personally I think it's veering dangerously toward the Tim Sherwood school of flexibility myself.

 

[mill]

If not fancying Eriksen in a CM2 makes me too rigid, then maybe I am. Personally I think it's veering dangerously toward the Tim Sherwood school of flexibility myself.

lol you're completely ignoring the difference of a back 4 and back 3 set up, for someone who self titles a tactical analysis thread you're coming across as pretty narrow minded

 

[Bus-Conductor]

lol you're completely ignoring the difference of a back 4 and back 3 set up, for someone who self titles a tactical analysis thread you're coming across as pretty narrow minded

I'm not ignoring it. I just don't want Eriksen playing in a CM2 in this team right now. In a 3cb system or a 4. If that somehow invalidates every other opinion I have or have ever had for you, then I'll just have to live with that I guess.

 

[mill]

I'm not ignoring it. I just don't want Eriksen playing in a CM2 in this team right now. In a 3cb system or a 4. If that somehow invalidates every other opinion I have or have ever had for you, then I'll just have to live with that I guess.

TBH it was the god awful cringeworthy stuff you posted in the rose thread a month or 2 back that invalidated most of your opinions for me, I mean that honestly too it's not just a cheap shot

 

[Bus-Conductor]

TBH it was the god awful cringeworthy stuff you posted in the rose thread a month or 2 back that invalidated most of your opinions for me, I mean that honestly too it's not just a cheap shot

Then do us both a favour and don't bother quoting my posts from here on in. Save us both the fucking ball ache.

 

[dannythomas]

I think we are getting a bit over complicated now. I think you know what I am saying. Eriksen sees a shitload more of the ball than those two, and yet, still waists it much less. I appreciate they bring other qualities and it's a balance of qualities that makes for a good blend, but the point I was making is Eriksen brings that metronomic and much more consistent composure to our game play, and without him in that final third we'd be a pretty samey mixture of incoherent erratic-ness punctuated with (even fewer) moments of productive quality (Kane, Alli, Lamela, Son, Sissoko etc etc).

I honestly don't know how you can bracket Kane with Sissoko . Kane has lots of moments of productive quality. Sissoko almost zero. He has patches when he loses form but I think you are one of the few who would describe his game as incoherent erratic -ness with even fewer moments of productive quality. You don't score the number of high quality goals he does if that is a true description of your game. I think you should probably support Barcelona or Bayern or Real Madrid instead since your standards are just way too demanding for a club like ours, competing against mega rich clubs and punching above our weight. The likes of Walker, Dembele, Davies, Rose, Kane, Ali, Lamela, Son just don't meet up to your standards, not to mention those that are truly not performing or truly not good enough like Sissoko, Nkoudou, Janssen . I get the impression that you would like to upgrade all bar Lloris, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Eriksen , Wanyama and Winks. That would probably mean bringing in at least 10 new players who are better than those we have.

 

[spurs9]

Default without the ball I'd say it is more a 3421/3412. But it morphs into many things including 122221 ?? Here's whoscored's positional map, though this is influenced by positions in possession and territory etc of which we were superior.



View attachment 28834 :

Eriksen's touch map is very impressive:

View attachment 28835

Alli's:

View attachment 28836


Kane's:

View attachment 28837

Eriksen's ave position map v Hull (playing in CM)

v Watford (also playing CM)

When we are in games where we will spend most of the time attacking, playing CM certainly doesn't shackle him positionally.

Pass map v Hull

Even more impressive than the Everton pass map you posted IMO, allows Eriksen to dictate things centrally rather than being forced wide. He even scored 2 in this game.


Pass Map v Watford

Created 5 chances in this game.


Edit: @mill was right when he said it's "more like bielsa's 3313 than the 3421", especially the Hull game.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Eriksen's ave position map v Hull (playing in CM)
View attachment 28854

v Watford (also playing CM)
View attachment 28855

When we are in games where we will spend most of the time attacking, playing CM certainly doesn't shackle him positionally.

Pass map v Hull

View attachment 28856

Even more impressive than the Everton pass map you posted IMO, allows Eriksen to dictate things centrally rather than being forced wide. He even scored 2 in this game.


Pass Map v Watford
View attachment 28857

Created 5 chances in this game.

Two games against Hull and Watford isn't exactly a convincing case study though is it. I get what you are saying, Eriksen was decent in those games, he has also often been dropped into CM roles when Poch has made in game changes when we've been chasing games etc, I'm not saying you're barking mad, but as I said, "most games" I just wouldn't want him there, I think many games, even if just for spells of the game, it could end up being a compromise, either defensively, offensively or both.

But more than that, I really like the role he has right now. I think it's the best we've found for him, he's dropping into CM areas when needed quite a lot now, playing as a kind of 8/10 hybrid, getting through more ball than the CM's often as it is, and he has some freedom within that remit right now which I think suits him to a tee.

And for me, the ideal would be pair Wanyama up with one of the more progressive other options (new or existing) and have Eriksen too. I'd consider Eriksen in a more traditional 433, or even some other version of a CM3 - which is kind of what we get now.

 

[JimmyG2]

As Kane leads the leading Premiership goalscorers over the last three seasons
and the Premiership goalscorers this season
I'm not sure who you would upgrade him with.

Premier League goals since start of 2014/15:
HARRY KANE 65

Sergio Aguero 62

Diego Costa 49

Alexis Sanchez 46

Romelu Lukaku 46

Football 365

Vardy and Defoe just pip Harry for top spot for English players
if you combine their goals

Eriksen leads the chances created and assists charts in the Premiership too.

Who do you suggest that we could afford either wages or fee.

Is that green grass over there or a pond covered in slime.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

As Kane leads the leading Premiership goalscorers over the last three seasons
and the Premiership goalscorers this season
I'm not sure who you would upgrade him with.

Premier League goals since start of 2014/15:
HARRY KANE 65

Sergio Aguero 62

Diego Costa 49

Alexis Sanchez 46

Romelu Lukaku 46

Football 365

Vardy and Defoe just pip Harry for top spot for English players
if you combine their goals

Eriksen leads the chances created and assists charts in the Premiership too.

Who do you suggest that we could afford either wages or fee.

Is that green grass over there or a pond covered in slime.

Is someone advocating we upgrade Kane ?

 

[JimmyG2]

Is someone advocating we upgrade Kane ?

Probably not on reflection
but just in case anyone was.
Eriksen's a different case though.

Sorry get carried away sometimes.
'About bloody time' I hear you cry 'in a casket preferably'
Not actually 'you' of course.
You're the knowledgeable systems nerd brother I never had