Ratings vs Liverpool

Discussion in 'Match Ratings Archive' started by Bulletspur, Feb 10, 2015.

MOM

  1. Lloris

  2. Walker

  3. Dier

  4. Vert

  5. Rose

  6. Bentaleb

  7. Mason

  8. Lamela

  9. Dembele

  10. Eriksen

  11. Kane

  12. Paulinho

  13. Chadli

  14. Soldado

  15. Undecided

  16. None deserved

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. davidmatzdorf

    davidmatzdorf Front Page Gadfly

    Messages:
    10,368
    Ratings Received:
    +14,064 / 445 / -372
    The whole thread seems to be about "who made a mistake". It's a pinhead's view of football analysis.

    If anyone were interested in discussing the actual performance of our team, we could consider how Liverpool are high-quality opponents who move the ball - and their opponents - about with craft and skill, we could note how the match could have gone either way, until our rather overworked midfielders began to tire and their replacements lost any semblance of grip on possession during the last 15 minutes. Then we might actually have a productive discussion.

    Instead, it's a "debate" about whether Rose's error, Lloris' error or Dier's error was the most egregious and cost us the match.

    We didn't lose the match because individuals made specific errors. Individuals made 10 other errors that didn't result in goals. Individual always make errors. It's a diversion and a misdirection to obsess about individual errors. We don't learn anything.

    We lost the match because the replacements for tired players, especially Paulinho, did not win or retain possession, which resulted in our defence gradually drifting deeper, which resulted in pressure, which resulted in Lallana creating a chance that led to a freshly introduced striker outfoxing a young, very tired defender.

    If we had cleared that chance, the narrative would be different, but the performance would have been the same. Focusing on individual errors just obscures what actually happened.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2015
    • Winner Winner x 9
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. Singayid

    Singayid Active Member

    Messages:
    203
    Ratings Received:
    +312 / 10 / -4
    MP
    I think a really good assessment of the game & players as I saw it anyway. Clealry others didn't. Massively disappointing.
     
  3. fortworthspur

    fortworthspur Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,759
    Ratings Received:
    +3,513 / 190 / -33
    according to Opta, Paulinho matched Mason for tackles (2 attempts, 2 won) in 20 minutes to Mason's 70. He had 12 passes to Mason's 38 in 1/4 the time and a higher completion rate. He won 75% of his duels to 23% for Mason (whatever that means). They both had one clearance. People want to blame Paulinho, but the stats dont back it up.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Main Man

    Main Man Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,314
    Ratings Received:
    +1,806 / 492 / -174
    Mental exhausation is a real thing.

    If you were talking about a soldier in the battlefield who hadn't slept for five days I would accept your point.

    But there is absolutely no way that our players were mentally fatigued three days after the Arsenal match.

    And science would dictate if they were it would have effected their physical performance - which you have already admitted wasn't the case.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Doh! Doh! x 1
  5. Main Man

    Main Man Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,314
    Ratings Received:
    +1,806 / 492 / -174
    That's just a bit contradictory. Ignoring individual errors equally obscures what actually happened, but I can appreciate your sentiment.

    Are you really trying to blame the defeat on Paulinho and defend the poor "young, very tired defender" in Rose?

    Rose was the ultimate difference between the teams in my opinion. He was that bad. I thought we should have took him off at half time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2015
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. davidmatzdorf

    davidmatzdorf Front Page Gadfly

    Messages:
    10,368
    Ratings Received:
    +14,064 / 445 / -372
    No.

    I meant Dier. He was marking Balotelli.

    The team lost. Not Rose. The whole team.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Main Man

    Main Man Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,314
    Ratings Received:
    +1,806 / 492 / -174
    I think the critisicm of Dier is harsh. He was certainly stood in the right position. Verthongen however should have been better placed, and if he was he would have stopped the ball across the goal.

    But Rose et al should never have let them get in that position to start with.

    The whole team lost, but it was Rose's individual performance that cost us the game. Others didn't perform, including your mate Paulinho, but they didn't cost us goals - apart from Super Hugo of course.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  8. lukespurs7

    lukespurs7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,278
    Ratings Received:
    +3,028 / 333 / -197
    I see your point and agree the tired players and changes made a difference but you can't really say those errors didn't cost us the match.

    Lloris for as incredible as he's been this season should've saved that shot and it was sloppy defending to let Markovic have some much space anyway, if he had 0-0 after 15 mins as opposed to 1-0 down would've made a difference what if we'd then scored our goal and now its 1-0 to us and they're chasing the game.

    Rose then gave away a penalty which again gave them impetus when they really weren't looking a huge threat or especially not more of a threat than we were looking.

    Not really complaining about the errors at all as i've previously stated we played a fantastic game thoroughly deserved a point at least and that was a huge huge improvement vs a team who's been spanking 3/4 past us even at our own ground!

    Good performance from the boys, some tiredness and some sloppy defending/errors did i'm afraid cost us/ at least influence the result.
     
  9. StartingPrice

    StartingPrice Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip

    Messages:
    32,443
    Ratings Received:
    +10,479 / 107 / -86
    This.

    This result wasn't about some crap players but about context.

    I wouldn't want to blame fatigue, because Liverpool played mid-week when we didn't and played later than we did on Saturday, and they had injury concerns were we didn't. At the same time, we did physically and mentally exhaust ourselves against the Goons, whereas the Mersyside derby was a bit limp. They were at home and they played well, Ibe looks like a good find for them. But Mason and Bentaleb didn't look quite on it all game, and then their replacements just cannot play the game that Pochettino wants. Mason was integrated into the team straight away because he does play that game. But these are young players, both, really, in their first break-out season, without the consistency and the nous of veterans and sometimes their naivety showed. And, to repeat, Pochettino started to rely on these two early on primarily because the options for playing his high pressure, high press game with emphasis on immediate transition forward from the midfielders, precisely because the senior options in the squad just aren't suitable for it.

    What was more interesting was that the more sensible Scousers were commenting on how good we were, and that we look like a really good team, while we were thinking we looked a bit jaded. A very young team, in these circumstances, yeah, it was disappointing to lose, but also the type of game were we can still see continued improvement and some very obvious reasons why we weren't quite at the races.

    I agree, it's not all about blaming Paulinho - but I would like to know why Stambouli wasn't at least on the bench.

    Looked to me like the ball bobbled just as it reached Lloris's hand for their first goal - that could happen to any player in any game at any time - just makes it look much worse when it is in front of goal. Don't see why anyone is blaming Hugo or saying he isn't quite World Class (which I did see rival fans saying online).

    Toss up between Lamela and Dembélé for MoM in my opinion - I gave it to Lamela. Amazed therefore to see comments singling out the occasional thing he did, or that went, wrong. Seems like they look out for an error and remember it - his work-rate, contribution to our passing game, and creativity are all getting better. Becoming a very good functional part of the team. Interestingly, our best players were those who had played rather less than average.

    One more thing, Phil Dowd...FFS, when both sets of fans are p*ssed you know you've done something wrong - neutrals were probably p*ssed as well with him restricting the flow of the game with yellow carding virtually anything that moved. But the thing that got me, and then I saw plenty on the match thread had also spotted, was how we played 4 minutes injury time (probably should have been more anyway), and then allowed Liverpool to waste 2 minutes of that, and then blew the whistle with the ball going into the danger area. He certainly didn't allow for the two wasted minutes. No referee does that (or, at least, they shouldn't)! On top of which, while Sakho was wasting a considerable stretch of injury time, Skrtel, who had already been yellow carded, lifted his hands to Harry Kane.

    All told, peeved at losing to them...but under the circumstances it is hardly hand-wringingly bad. Liverpool could go on a run, now, of course, but anyone too feared of them should remember that they are still in Europa, same as us, still in the FA Cup and then go and check their full fixture list in the EPL. They have a pretty tough run-in.
    COYS
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. stevenqoz

    stevenqoz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,586
    Media:
    6
    Ratings Received:
    +397 / 53 / -3
    This was a very even game and could have gone either way. A few things to add....
    1..That is not an EPL standard pitch...lumpy and bumpy contributing to many unforced errors for both teams
    2. Our substitutions added nothing to our cause tonight whereas theirs.....
    3. We got sloppy towards the end....I feel Rose is challenged to concentrate the whole 90 minutes....Davies and maybe Chadli instead of the ineffective Paulinho
     
  11. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

    Messages:
    36,951
    Ratings Received:
    +45,289 / 2,066 / -619

    You start by saying lets not blame individuals, then go on to blame Paulinho, who was only on the pitch for 1 of the 3 goals and also actually saw the ball marginally more (pass every 1.6 min) than Mason (1.7min - the player he replaced) and also gave the ball away less (Paulinho 83.3%) than Mason (81.6%).

    I accept Paulinho is not as dynamic or tenacious without the ball, and I am not a fan of his, but I don't think he was really a major factor in us losing that game.

    Individual and possibly tactical errors were a major factor, and though I chose not to dwell on them in my ratings post either, because I was very happy with our general approach, it's valid to to call them.

    I don't share you view that we started sitting deeper either, I think when they scored and in the final phase, we'd actually started to look more in control and they had started to look more tired than at any other time.

    I think the latter stages we'd started to edge it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  12. Mr Pink

    Mr Pink SC Supporter

    Messages:
    43,545
    Ratings Received:
    +56,241 / 799 / -266
    I felt the same. For me, I was really starting to believe that a 3-2 win was on the cards for us, that's why I was so disappointed when we conceded as I felt a draw was the least we'd get on how the game was developing.

    Sloppy errors were the reason we lost IMO as overall our collective performance was good. If we continue to develop as we are, and apply the same intensity to our play, we're on to a very good thing.

    The movement and interchange in the build up to Kane's goal was by far most impressive of the night.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1

Share This Page