Retrospective

[Locotoro]

Locotoro - you partially quoted me. In fact, if you'd fully quoted me, you'd see that I addressed your point in my original answer. Here, again, is what I wrote:

If that was the first time I'd ever seen Zokora play, I would be thinking we had a potentially world class player. All he needs is a bit of composure in front of goal, either to shoot more accurately or slip an easy through ball to Berba or Lennon. But we've all been watching the guy for a season and a half. I doubt any Spurs fan would have put serious money on Zokora either scoring or passing to a Spurs player when he was clean through. If Juande can teach him that kind of composure at the age of 26, then Ramos truly is a genius.

----------------------

And I'll add the following. JJ is also fit enough to have made such a run. And from their goalscoring record, season after season, I think there's a good chance Jenas would either have scored or put either Berba or Lennon through. On one, or maybe even both, occasions.

Yanno, I partially quoted you as I did not feel you answered the point I was making in the remainder of your post.

I was not asking whether whether he could improve or how. Nor was I asking disagreeing with your point that at first glance he appeared to be world class.

I disagreed with your opinion regarding him making two big errors (those being his miss and the failure to offload the ball after both his 60 yard dashes)

I dont think that can be considered a big error on his part for the reasons I've listed. He made the runs when no one else did and in fact gave us a brilliant opportunity to relieve pressure and create an opportunity.

Look back to this clip of last years Slavia game. Please note the 30 yard run and offloading of the ball which is an assist for Jenas' goal. (Everything else he does is not in dispute so I wont bother discussing it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbqJ2UKuN6w&NR=1


In response to your comment re: Jenas. We all take note of Jenas' goal scoring record and levels of fitness but Jenas wasnt the one making those runs and Jenas wasnt the one with the opportunity.

But since you've raised Jenas i turn your minds back to the match (i cant recall who against) where Jenas made a ridiculous 70 yard sprint to be put through with the goal at his mercy and stumble at the last minute and hit the side netting....I take it you think that was an error on his part?

Which is better? Not making the run at all or creating the chance and having it saved by Cech?

 

[Legend10]

JJ has had an enormous season, he is now tipping my scales towards player of the year!

 

[AW?]

I thought that was Zokora's best game ever for us in midfield, and by some margin. How some idiots were giving him 4s or 5s I have no idea. Perhaps they were watching without their guide dogs.

Now if only someone can persuade him that it is actually permissible to use the side of your foot when faced with an open goal… :grin:

I'm starting to wonder due to Zokora closing his eyes for penalties whether he actually does the same when he's shooting himself.

He did manage one on target though, so i'll give him some credit :wink:

 

[General Levy]

Jenas' 70 yard run was against Liverpool at Anfield last season

 

[SpurSince57]

One match and now he is a world beater LMAO:rofl:

Some of you are unreal. Once the euphoria of winning the cup leaves your body, then you'll realise that one decent performance doesn't mean that an average player like Zokora is better than a proven world class player like Essien.

We're already fully aware that you failed your CSE English comprehension test, and that you apparently watch football matches without your Labrador. So, why this seemingly compulsive need to keep reminding us that you aren't all that bright?

 

[General Levy]

We're already fully aware that you failed your CSE English comprehension test, and that you apparently watch football matches without your Labrador. So, why this seemingly compulsive need to keep reminding us that you aren't all that bright?

oh dear

 

[SpurSince57]

GL, only someone several months short of completing their intensive study course to become a fully-qualified cabbage could have construed my comment on Zokora to mean I considered him a world-class midfielder. Nevertheless, you managed this singularly impressive feat.

Congratulations.

Now, go crap in your hat and wear it backwards.

 

[General Levy]

GL, only someone several months short of completing their intensive study course to become a fully-qualified cabbage could have construed my comment on Zokora to mean I considered him a world-class midfielder. Nevertheless, you managed this singularly impressive feat.

Congratulations.

Now, go crap in your hat and wear it backwards.

I tell you something that I do find hard to comprehend is each time after I own you on this forum, you have to result in behaving like some kind of demented adolescent? I mean you are over 50 years of age, old man; what is wrong with you?

:duh:

 

[SpurSince57]

I tell you something that I do find hard to comprehend is after each time I own you on this forum, you have to result in behaving like some kind of demented adolescent? I mean you are over 50 years of age, old man; what is wrong with you?

:duh:

Is English your second language?

 

[Locotoro]

Surely if you crap in your hat and wear it backwards......:shrug: its the same as wearing it forwards or normally?

Unless its a cap then I understand...sorry what kind of hat are we talking here?

 

[General Levy]

Is English your second language?

Yes, it is. Are you satisfied now?

You just made yourself look like an even bigger cock than you actually are.:clap:

You are a condescending fool :shhh:

 

[Bus-Conductor]

General Levy,

We have three other midfielders whose job it is weigh in with goals. And they do. No one would complain if Zokora scored but it is really not essential when we already play with 5 attacking players. Plus attacking full backs. 7. In fact bearing in mind he stays back for corners and the CB's go up, he is probably the least attack obligated outfield player. And you seem to ignore the free kick that Woodgate also needlessly gave away. And Hutton. And the fact that it was very poor goalkeeping which in fact was the major factor. If you look through the times I've given you you'll find Zokora also preventing a couple of real chances for Chelsea by intercepting/tackling in our box. No credit given by you it seems.

Yanno
You cannot criticise someone who has the least amount of attacking obligation for missing a chance that he had created himself. And he made a much better fist of his chance than Berbatov did when put clean through (also by keane).

I have no problem if we replace Zokora with Tiago, Gonzales, etc, etc. But the pair of you need to be realistic. When we had Davids plenty of people on here were calling hima liability. The truth is players whose job it is to just be "a busy ****" are seldom appreciated by those that only see the crunchng tackle, the 30 yard pass or the goals. Every team needs them though. Some are better than others and Zokora is actually better at it than he gets credit for.

I urge you both to note the times I gave you in the original thread and just check out what he was doing. It's not always eye catching but it was the buidling block on which our whole performance was built.

Whatever we think of Zokora, I promise you, that was an outstanding performance sunday, and I don't say that very often. Fucking outstanding.


I don't want this to turn into a Zokora debate because that really wasn't the intention of my original post. 4 players stood out, but everyone stood up. But to actually criticise Zokora when he was possibly even MOTM, is just ridiculous.

 

[thfcsteff]

Zoko-pops

General Levy,

We have three other midfielders whose job it is weigh in with goals. And they do. No one would complain if Zokora scored but it is really not essential when we already play with 5 attacking players. Plus attacking full backs. 7. In fact bearing in mind he stays back for corners and the CB's go up, he is probably the least attack obligated outfield player. And you seem to ignore the free kick that Woodgate also needlessly gave away. And Hutton. And the fact that it was very poor goalkeeping which in fact was the major factor. If you look through the times I've given you you'll find Zokora also preventing a couple of real chances for Chelsea by intercepting/tackling in our box. No credit given by you it seems.

Yanno
You cannot criticise someone who has the least amount of attacking obligation for missing a chance that he had created himself. And he made a much better fist of his chance than Berbatov did when put clean through (also by keane).

I have no problem if we replace Zokora with Tiago, Gonzales, etc, etc. But the pair of you need to be realistic. When we had Davids plenty of people on here were calling hima liability. The truth is players whose job it is to just be "a busy ****" are seldom appreciated by those that only see the crunchng tackle, the 30 yard pass or the goals. Every team needs them though. Some are better than others and Zokora is actually better at it than he gets credit for.

I urge you both to note the times I gave you in the original thread and just check out what he was doing. It's not always eye catching but it was the buidling block on which our whole performance was built.

Whatever we think of Zokora, I promise you, that was an outstanding performance sunday, and I don't say that very often. Fucking outstanding.


I don't want this to turn into a Zokora debate because that really wasn't the intention of my original post. 4 players stood out, but everyone stood up. But to actually criticise Zokora when he was possibly even MOTM, is just ridiculous.

Good? Absolutely? Above his normal level when deployed in midfield? Absolutely? Fucking outstanding? Errr, hang on fella...not really...he was strong, he worked like a trojan and he actually managed to maintain better shape and focus off the ball than usual, however he was far from flawless (usual flying reckless challenges making it easy for spring-booted players like Drogba to nick a foul out of him) and again unable to finish off great forward dashes with either the right pass or the right shot. Look, I agree, he had a decent game for sure, but I don't think he was amazing by any stretch.

Amazing? Ledley King, for looking seemless next to a CB he'd never played with before and for looking like he'd played every game this season, Woody for being an equal 'boss-man' out there, Keano for being everything he could possibly be and JJ for a really great performance culminating in a beautifully flighted delivery for Woody's head. Four amazing performances for me which stood out.

 

[Chaplain]

And I'll add the following. JJ is also fit enough to have made such a run. And from their goalscoring record, season after season, I think there's a good chance Jenas would either have scored or put either Berba or Lennon through. On one, or maybe even both, occasions.

I'd like to add something here -

Jenas is far, far more withdrawn when Zokora plays...I understand why he did it this game, with the work they put in in midfield, and Jenas did have a great game, just far from as offensive as those we've gotten used to without Zokora playing...

And this leads to the problem when Jenas and Zokora used to play together, Jenas had the tendency to dissapear from games, as he had to adjust his offensive play as Zokora had a tendency to go forward, and I think we saw a bit of that against Chelsea - you made a good point that if Jenas was on the end of either of those runs, which he very well could have been, it may just have been a slightly different result both times.

While it was necesssary to play both against Chelsea, and it paid off, will this have the same effect in other games where we might need a more offensive Jenas? Perhaps it was just tactical adjustments for this game, perhaps it'll change against a weaker team, but from past trends it does not look likely. Hopefully Ramos will be able to limit Zokora more and give more freedom to Jenas.

 

[DogsOfWar]

One match and now he is a world beater LMAO:rofl:

Some of you are unreal. Once the euphoria of winning the cup leaves your body, then you'll realise that one decent performance doesn't mean that an average player like Zokora is better than a proven world class player like Essien.

But that is the point, he is being rated on one match not on his lifetime acheivements, and that one match was a final when it really mattered.
And in that one match he stopped a proven world class player in Essien, so on the day an average player like Zokora was better.

This discussion isn't about how good Zokora is or how far he'll take us it's about how well did he do his job in the final?

 

[DogsOfWar]

As someone who's been very critical of Zokora in the past, I thought that was by far his best performance for us, certainly the first that's made me think he really could be what we were led to expect 18 months ago. He and JJ totally neutralised the supposedly 'superior' Essien and Lampard (with a bit of help from Keane harrying Mikel). What more do some people want?

As for the fouls: I don't think the one on SWP was a foul, and the one on Drogba was marginal, with Halsey being influenced by Drogba's acting like a big girl. And I would far rather have Zoko getting stuck in, even to the point of recklessness, than displays like the one against Fabregas in the CC last season.

But Robbo looking out of his depth? No more so than Cech. Sure, he messed up on the free-kick, but we would have been up shit creek without a paddle had it not been for three vital saves, and he would have been finished in many people's eyes.

Too right.

One minute we complain because no-ones putting it about in the middle and when someone does they get stick for giving away free-kicks. Like yourself I would rather take this.

As for the comments on Robbo, I just couldn't help myself even though I only wanted to discuss Zokora.

But seeing as I promised not to criticize anyone about Sunday's performance I will now retract them in a Wengeresque style U-turn. :grin:

 

[sloth]

As someone who's been very critical of Zokora in the past, I thought that was by far his best performance for us, certainly the first that's made me think he really could be what we were led to expect 18 months ago. He and JJ totally neutralised the supposedly 'superior' Essien and Lampard (with a bit of help from Keane harrying Mikel). What more do some people want?

As for the fouls: I don't think the one on SWP was a foul, and the one on Drogba was marginal, with Halsey being influenced by Drogba's acting like a big girl. And I would far rather have Zoko getting stuck in, even to the point of recklessness, than displays like the one against Fabregas in the CC last season.

But Robbo looking out of his depth? No more so than Cech. Sure, he messed up on the free-kick, but we would have been up shit creek without a paddle had it not been for three vital saves, and he would have been finished in many people's eyes.

Good on you SS, we don't always see eye to eye but you're not a stuck in the mud.

DZ's not the finished article by any stretch, but he has all the attributes, he's just lacking something on the mental side, which is where I hope Ramos steps in.

On the Robbo thing. He didn't look out of his depth, but he's clearly very low on confidence, it wasn't just the way he was rooted to the spot for the free-kick they scored, or for the previous one which missed, but the way he didn't come for crosses or even come out sometimes to help when our CBs were trying to shepherd the ball back. He's still got the reactions and the instinct but he's a shadow of the keeper he was two seasons ago. I'm 100% certain we'll buy a replacement come the summer and so I'm also almost 100% certain he'll go.

 

[yanno]

Yanno
You cannot criticise someone who has the least amount of attacking obligation for missing a chance that he had created himself. And he made a much better fist of his chance than Berbatov did when put clean through (also by keane).

I have no problem if we replace Zokora with Tiago, Gonzales, etc, etc. But the pair of you need to be realistic. When we had Davids plenty of people on here were calling hima liability. The truth is players whose job it is to just be "a busy ****" are seldom appreciated by those that only see the crunchng tackle, the 30 yard pass or the goals. Every team needs them though. Some are better than others and Zokora is actually better at it than he gets credit for.

I urge you both to note the times I gave you in the original thread and just check out what he was doing. It's not always eye catching but it was the buidling block on which our whole performance was built.

Whatever we think of Zokora, I promise you, that was an outstanding performance sunday, and I don't say that very often. Fucking outstanding.

B-C - I have already acknowledged that Zokora did some outstanding defensive work on Sunday, and I'm happy to do so again. Great stuff, Zoko! :clap:

You also know that I'm very aware of the non-eyecatching, grafting hard work that good DCMs can do. I was one of the first on these boards to praise Tainio's performance against the Scum in CCSF2, after he'd been given a ridiculously low rating in the match thread.

But because Zokora was so committed on Sunday, the strengths and weaknesses in his game - which we've all seen for a season and a half - were magnified. Zokora doesn't have great positional sense for a DCM, and he uses his outstanding athleticism and speed to get him out of trouble. Unfortunately, when a player is closing down an opponent at great speed, they can easily just rush straight into the opposing player and/or mistime a challenge - as Zoko did against Drogba. Great DCMs llike Makelele often simply jockey opponents so that they can't use the ball dangerously rather than diving in. Reckless challenges ultimately reveal a lack of composure.

And Zokora's forward runs are the ultimate cocktease. World class flirting followed by complete anticlimax. Time after time. Again due to a lack of composure.

Personally, I would ban Zokora from making forward runs, and have him bossing the centre of the pitch and covering for our FBs when they push forward. For me that would make maximum use of his considerable strengths. It's also why I continue to believe he has a chance of being a very good out-and-out defender.

Locotoro mentions the time Jenas ran the length of the pitch against the scousers and missed from a few yards out. But we all know that JJ does have the composure to stick the ball in the net and/or play a teammate in. Not every time. But certainly on a regular and consistent basis.

Locotoro - I also agree with Chaplain that when JJ plays with Zokora, he often seems less confident about making forward runs. Whereas alongside a more disciplined DCM partner like Tainio in the CCSF2, Jenas was absolutely outstanding and able to pick and choose the timing of his forward runs to near perfection.

I was proud of all the players on Sunday. It was a magnificent performance. But Juande has already talked of how we're not yet a Top 4 team, and that we need to improve. I share his ambition because I want Spurs to be the best club in the country.

 

[Damian99]

I agree with that analysis. Berbatov wasn't as good as he could be. A hat trick would match his ability. But there is time to show what he is capable of. Next month he is going to play better.

Hang on, im no rocket scientist, but isn't next month MARCH?

I know it's a leap year this year, but i didn't know we were going to have TWO FEBRUARYS in one callender year :wink:

 

[Shanks]

I'm still struggling to think of any Defensive Midfielders in the world who would score 6 goals a season on a regular basis....

And I cannot see where anyone has said that Zoko is better than Essien... just mentioned that because of his great performance, he helped in maintaining Essien and Lamps to a very average (dare I say below average!!) performance.

Immense in every sense of the word. Him missing wasn't a mistake, it was a bloody good save. Him shooting the rebound over the bar, well, its not like he is prolific in anyway.. he isn't there to score goals, simple, not rocket science.

I have no idea why some people try argueing that fact.