Retrospective

[Flatters]

I'm still struggling to think of any Defensive Midfielders in the world who would score 6 goals a season on a regular basis....

And I cannot see where anyone has said that Zoko is better than Essien... just mentioned that because of his great performance, he helped in maintaining Essien and Lamps to a very average (dare I say below average!!) performance.

Immense in every sense of the word. Him missing wasn't a mistake, it was a bloody good save. Him shooting the rebound over the bar, well, its not like he is prolific in anyway.. he isn't there to score goals, simple, not rocket science.

I have no idea why some people try argueing that fact.

He did everything right in that move but score at the end of it. Luckily it didn't matter though, and he was still a key part of us winning that game.

 

[DC_Boy]

DC, I dare you to do a post that has nothing to do Berbatov!

Bullet - I think you'll find I've done about 6.000 but I take your point - it's just I do find it incredible that Berbs doesn't get more praise on these forums. To me he is the very embodiment of Greaves Ginola & Hoddle, the artistry that lies at the core of Spurs greatness (but maybe I'm just a romantic ole football fool

 

[sloth]

B-C - I have already acknowledged that Zokora did some outstanding defensive work on Sunday, and I'm happy to do so again. Great stuff, Zoko!

You also know that I'm very aware of the non-eyecatching, grafting hard work that good DCMs can do. I was one of the first on these boards to praise Tainio's performance against the Scum in CCSF2, after he'd been given a ridiculously low rating in the match thread.

But because Zokora was so committed on Sunday, the strengths and weaknesses in his game - which we've all seen for a season and a half - were magnified. Zokora doesn't have great positional sense for a DCM, and he uses his outstanding athleticism and speed to get him out of trouble. Unfortunately, when a player is closing down an opponent at great speed, they can easily just rush straight into the opposing player and/or mistime a challenge - as Zoko did against Drogba. Great DCMs llike Makelele often simply jockey opponents so that they can't use the ball dangerously rather than diving in. Reckless challenges ultimately reveal a lack of composure.

And Zokora's forward runs are the ultimate cocktease. World class flirting followed by complete anticlimax. Time after time. Again due to a lack of composure.

Personally, I would ban Zokora from making forward runs, and have him bossing the centre of the pitch and covering for our FBs when they push forward. For me that would make maximum use of his considerable strengths. It's also why I continue to believe he has a chance of being a very good out-and-out defender.

Locotoro mentions the time Jenas ran the length of the pitch against the scousers and missed from a few yards out. But we all know that JJ does have the composure to stick the ball in the net and/or play a teammate in. Not every time. But certainly on a regular and consistent basis.

Locotoro - I also agree with Chaplain that when JJ plays with Zokora, he often seems less confident about making forward runs. Whereas alongside a more disciplined DCM partner like Tainio in the CCSF2, Jenas was absolutely outstanding and able to pick and choose the timing of his forward runs to near perfection.

I was proud of all the players on Sunday. It was a magnificent performance. But Juande has already talked of how we're not yet a Top 4 team, and that we need to improve. I share his ambition because I want Spurs to be the best club in the country.

LOL Yanno. Come on mate. Stop tying yourself in knots. There’s a reason DZ played and Tainio didn’t and I promise you it’s not because Ramos has a blind-spot when it comes to the Finn’s talents. It’s the same reason Lee didn’t play despite the hyperbole some convinced themselves of as fact. Really some of what you wrote is plain daft, it’s as if by saying it, you make it true and yet we’ve already be over it a dozen times before. Take this bit...

Zokora doesn't have great positional sense for a DCM, and he uses his outstanding athleticism and speed to get him out of trouble. Unfortunately, when a player is closing down an opponent at great speed, they can easily just rush straight into the opposing player and/or mistime a challenge - as Zoko did against Drogba. Great DCMs llike Makelele often simply jockey opponents so that they can't use the ball dangerously rather than diving in. Reckless challenges ultimately reveal a lack of composure.

DZ’s positioning is excellent, it is why he makes so many interceptions and vital tackles every game.

DZ’s passing is excellent, he almost never gives the ball away. This is borne out by a pass completion of over 80%, top three in terms of the club, right at the top in terms of the Premiership.

The quantity of passes made is also very high, meaning he keeps the ball moving. Short passes are the key. He plays hundreds, accurately.

He’s aggressive in the tackle and fearless, he’d throw himself in front of an exocet with one of his barrel-rolls if he thought it would stop it going in the goal. And it would, lol.

He does lack certain qualities required of a DM however (and I’m not talking about shooting here either)...

He needs to learn to sit more, to curb his enthusiasm and he can be reckless ala the free-kick on the edge of the box, but then so can the likes of Hargreaves, Viera, Keane etc.

His “eyes-in-the-back-of-the-head-spidey-sense” is poor compared to many others, meaning he turns into trouble sometimes, especially worrying is he’s done it more than a few times on or around the edge of our own box and been dispossessed.

But that’s about it.

Add to his DM skills, his versatility in terms of positions he can play. He’s athleticism, fitness and hunger. As well as sheer speed and power running with the ball and you can see exactly why I and others have been arguing for a season and a half that with the right coaching he can be world-class. This is over and above the fact that he’s already pretty f*cking good.

That’s why I said he would be picked for the CC final. That’s why Ramos likes him. And that’s why I think he’ll have a big part to play in our future.

 

[yanno]

DZ’s positioning is excellent, it is why he makes so many interceptions and vital tackles every game.

I disagree. Compared with Makelele or Poulsen or Carrick, Zoko is often out of position but he recovers through his outsanding speed. Which is what I wrote.

DZ’s passing is excellent, he almost never gives the ball away. This is borne out by a pass completion of over 80%, top three in terms of the club, right at the top in terms of the Premiership.

It's a damn shame he hardly ever manages to pass to a teammate at the end of one of his lungbusting runs.

He’s aggressive in the tackle and fearless, he’d throw himself in front of an exocet with one of his barrel-rolls if he thought it would stop it going in the goal. And it would, lol.

No different from Tainio then, who frequently puts his body on the line for his favourite club.

He does lack certain qualities required of a DM however (and I’m not talking about shooting here either)...

He needs to learn to sit more, to curb his enthusiasm and he can be reckless ala the free-kick on the edge of the box, but then so can the likes of Hargreaves, Viera, Keane etc.

His “eyes-in-the-back-of-the-head-spidey-sense” is poor compared to many others, meaning he turns into trouble sometimes, especially worrying is he’s done it more than a few times on or around the edge of our own box and been dispossessed.

Having called me daft, you then manage to rehash my observations about Zokora's weaknesses. Almost verbatim. Except you miss the key phrase: lack of composure.

Add to his DM skills, his versatility in terms of positions he can play. He’s athleticism, fitness and hunger. As well as sheer speed and power running with the ball and you can see exactly why I and others have been arguing for a season and a half that with the right coaching he can be world-class. This is over and above the fact that he’s already pretty f*cking good.

Zoko's versatility will ensure that he plays a lot of games next season as a squad player. However, "power running with the ball" is totally useless unless he starts producing an end product. His shooting will always be comparable with Freund's. So, if he's the master passer of the ball that you claim (and I dispute), then I really really hope he learns to pass the ball to a teammate on a regular basis at the end of one of his runs.

Bottom line: it's near impossible to coach composure. Huddlestone was born with it. So was Glenn Hoddle.

 

[DogsOfWar]

Bullet - I think you'll find I've done about 6.000 but I take your point - it's just I do find it incredible that Berbs doesn't get more praise on these forums. To me he is the very embodiment of Greaves Ginola & Hoddle, the artistry that lies at the core of Spurs greatness (but maybe I'm just a romantic ole football fool

I agree but I think it's just because there is nothing to discuss with him. He's one of the best footballers to turn up in a Spurs shirt in the modern era and everyone accepts that.

If someone like yourself or Berbati :grin: posts something about just how good Berba is no-one is going to argue, but neither are they going to bother posting to agree because it's like agreeing to the fact that grass is green, a bit pointless.

 

[DC_Boy]

I agree but I think it's just because there is nothing to discuss with him. He's one of the best footballers to turn up in a Spurs shirt in the modern era and everyone accepts that.

If someone like yourself or Berbati :grin: posts something about just how good Berba is no-one is going to argue, but neither are they going to bother posting to agree because it's like agreeing to the fact that grass is green, a bit pointless.

fair enough DOW though actually I have seen a few posts on here having a dig at him

but just like I'll spend a lot of time campaigning on here on behalf on players getting unfairly scapegoated - like JJ or Salty in the past - Bent now - I'll also every so often big up Berby cos I don't think he gets enough praise

 

[Berbati]

Hang on, im no rocket scientist, but isn't next month MARCH?

I know it's a leap year this year, but i didn't know we were going to have TWO FEBRUARYS in one callender year :wink:

That's the most successful month in his career: 4 goals, 2 of them against Man U and Chelsea and a won cup at Wembley. :grin:

He can play better though :lol:

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I am a bit disapointed that this has become a Zokora debate. There were four outstanding performances amongst 13 great performances. Zokora's was just one of those four. I highlighted some of his important moments purely to try and substantiate my asscertion in the face of others criticism. I ctually thought that some of the knockers might take the excuse (lets face it ny excuse will do this week I'm sure) to watch the footage and maybe reconsider.

I also think that criticism of Zokora is made against a totally unrealistic backdrop of expecting us to sign one of the worlds top 5 CM's for 7mil and pay him 30k a week, whilst not offering him CL football. FFS, we couldn't even talk Tiago out of Juve's reserves.

And please get some perspective on carrick. I liked Carrick. He could do simple things really well. But his positioning was no better than Zokora's. It's why some weeks Fletcher, Hargreaves, Anderson, Schles get picked ahead f him. If he was this uber positioning, passing,running mchine that most people only thinkhe issince ManU paid 18mil then he would be the first name on Ferguson's team sheet. He's not. His best season in a spurs shirt came with Davids next to him. Coicidence ?

Yanno
I don't dismiss everything you say about zokora but you must put criticism in context and look at the facts. With a decent defence and attackers that defend from the front (which we rarely gt except big games) Zokora's role would be more like Makalele or Gattuso. I'm not saying he's as good as them but he is exposed far more than them by frailties elsewhere. Then add a dose of realism. We bought a CM for 7mil that (when last analysed) had the joint best passing % in the prem, the third highest aggregate passes and when it came to the bigest game we have played for many years stepped up to the plate.

None of our players - or indeed any players - will ever play the "perfect game". Everyone made mistakes Sunday but contrst that with Chelsea's huge money players.

I implore you to watch the game and check the times.


It is not a coincidence that we played so well. Him and Jenas had to be outstanding. Him and Jenas were.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I agree but I think it's just because there is nothing to discuss with him. He's one of the best footballers to turn up in a Spurs shirt in the modern era and everyone accepts that.

If someone like yourself or Berbati :grin: posts something about just how good Berba is no-one is going to argue, but neither are they going to bother posting to agree because it's like agreeing to the fact that grass is green, a bit pointless.

Except that what he gave us on Sunday he should give us more often. IE when not necessarily being super creative and thrilling us with deftness, he needs to at least work for his team mates. One, other or prefferably both. Some weeks we get the ghost. I'll still take his ghost over say Bent's effort every week but you know what I mean.

 

[C0YS]

Look I couldnt care less that Zokora missed a sitter, I8 couldnt care less if Zokora missed 5 sitters against Chelsea.
At the end of the day he did his job, and he did it well. He breakes things down, he intersepts the ball well, and hes a great athlete. So thats good for me.

My one problem with Zokora is that I belive he needs to be banned from going forwards (and Jenas needs to remember he plays best as a AM!), and he needs to allways be at the right place. If he does that we could have a world class player on are hands!!

 

[yanno]

B-C: Pax Zokora! :up:

Essien was Zoko's bitch.

JJ owned Obi Mikel.

And Fat Frank was last seen being transported out of the ground on a forklift truck driven by the new, slimline, Hud.

 

[Locotoro]

Locotoro - I also agree with Chaplain that when JJ plays with Zokora, he often seems less confident about making forward runs. Whereas alongside a more disciplined DCM partner like Tainio in the CCSF2, Jenas was absolutely outstanding and able to pick and choose the timing of his forward runs to near perfection.

Yanno, I doubt very much that the fact Jenas played with zokora instead of Tainio had anything to do with the fact it was Zokora and not Jenas making those runs.

Furthermore, I dont see what involving Jenas or Tainio in this discussion has got to do with the 'supposed' mistakes of Zokora. On the one hand you find it easy to say: "oh, Jenas didnt make those runs because Tainio wasnt playing", whereas on the other hand you can comment that "Zokora made two mistakes by not scoring". By you logic I would say "oh, Zokora didnt score because jenas should have made those runs".

As I have said before, Zokora created his own chances and provided the team with an attacking outlet. This helps for a number of reasons:
-1) Creates an opportunity to score a goal.
-2) Chelsea are aware of the threat he poses and this puts makes them slightly more wary of leaving gaps at the back.
-3) Creates space and opportunities for other players because Zokora is not left in too much space given the threat he may pose.
-4) The shot that left Cech groggy for the remainder of the match apparently (this is not my belief but it has been said in the commentary) aided Woodgate in getting to the ball first to head past the unconvincing Cech.

So by forcing the keeper into a save after making a lung bursting run doesnt necessarily mean that Zokora has made a mistake.

I still pose the unanswered question to you: After considering all the factors listed above would you still prefer that Zokora made no runs or that he made the runs and caused havoc in the Chelsea defence and was thwarted by a smart stop?

 

[SpurSince57]

To a resounding chorus of: 'One man went to lift, went to lift Frank Lampard, One man and his JCB, went to lift Frank Lampard…'

 

[yanno]

I still pose the unanswered question to you: After considering all the factors listed above would you still prefer that Zokora made no runs or that he made the runs and caused havoc in the Chelsea defence and was thwarted by a smart stop?

Locotoro - I just declared Pax Zokora, and there ya go digging it up all over again.

However your question isn't unanswered. Here, for the record, is my already posted answer:

Personally, I would ban Zokora from making forward runs, and have him bossing the centre of the pitch and covering for our FBs when they push forward. For me that would make maximum use of his considerable strengths.

 

[stevenqoz]

Agree with you completely B-C, our side really stood up. I've now watched the game 4 times on foxtel. Zokora dominated one of their most mobile dangerous players in SWP. Not once but throughout. Sure SWP got to celebrate hard for their goal but I am more inclined to remember he came off when subbed looking like a 15 year old playing his first game against men and Zokora in particular. Interestingly Keane held the ball longer in this game than in any I can remember....the right arena to excel. Berbatov ran his nuts off. Being the solo man up front in any Wembley Final was really tough! No wonder he refused to let anyone else touch the trophy for 20 minutes

 

[General Levy]

The commentator summed it up perfectly.

"you give away needless freekicks in and around the area, you'll get punished.

Zokora gives away another needless freekick :bang: