spurs in talks about Modric

[DoublePivot]

If JJ, who we think of a B2B mid, is out of Ramos' plans, how can we say that someone we are describing as a #10 will? All indications are that Ramos wants the spanish double pivot.

I agree that he has quality written all over him, but I won't believe that he is a transfer target until he's holding up the shirt with Levy.

 

[van_Pommel]

If JJ, who we think of a B2B mid, is out of Ramos' plans, how can we say that someone we are describing as a #10 will? All indications are that Ramos wants the spanish double pivot.

I agree that he has quality written all over him, but I won't believe that he is a transfer target until he's holding up the shirt with Levy.

Whats the spanish double pivot?

 

[buttons]

Whats the spanish double pivot?

Dunno but it sounds painful!

Could a midfield trio of JJ, Modric and a holding player not work?

 

[yanno]

If JJ, who we think of a B2B mid, is out of Ramos' plans, how can we say that someone we are describing as a #10 will? All indications are that Ramos wants the spanish double pivot.

DeadwoodDem - whilst you and I have long agreed about this, I now think if Berba leaves, Ramos will go back to the drawing board and potentially change his formation. Although it's still likely to include two holding CMs.

See this current thread for the formation discussion:
http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=29930

 

[smithym]

DeadwoodDem - whilst you and I have long agreed about this, I now think if Berba leaves, Ramos will go back to the drawing board and potentially change his formation. Although it's still likely to include two holding CMs.

See this current thread for the formation discussion:
http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=29930

We know ramos likes to play with flair and attacking prowess so a number 10 type would fit well, out of curiosity, did Sevilla have a no.10 type? i cant think of one!

 

[yanno]

We know ramos likes to play with flair and attacking prowess so a number 10 type would fit well, out of curiosity, did Sevilla have a no.10 type? i cant think of one!

smithym - Fundamentally, a Number Ten is largely incompatible with a Ramos Sevilla 4-4-2. Ramos' Sevilla team played (to paraphrase Marcos Alvarez), attacking, compact, with wingers.

So, both FBs (but especially Dani Alves) would get forward a lot, and both wide midfielders were very attacking and would get down the line and cross (right-footed Navas from the right, left-footed Puerta, Adriano, Capel from the left). Kanoute was the linking/fulcrum striker, playing a bit deeper than Fabiano. Because there was so much attacking down the flanks, involving the FBs in very advanced positions, both CMs would be very disciplined.

Poulsen is an out-and-out holding C/DM, who would move across to cover when a FB moved forward. He's not a great passer, but he's tough and a very intelligent team player. The other CM would be more creative: Keita, Renato, Maresca. But again, very disciplined.

Apply this to Spurs, and you can see the logic of our signing Gilberto - a naturally left-footed, very attacking LB/LM - and Hutton - a very attacking RB. And why we've been linked with out-and-out left-wingers - Downing and Capel. All this can be seen as Ramos applying his Sevilla blueprint to Spurs.

However, this system does not allow for a box-to-box CM. Which is why imo Ramos has changed Jenas' game, making him more disciplined, and picking and choosing his forward runs more selectively. Because with attacks coming down the flanks, the CMs primarily have to break up play and protect the defence in Ramos' Sevilla 4-4-2 formation.

Now, again, comparing the Sevilla blueprint, Berba plays the linking/fulcrum role of Kanoute, only even better because he's a world class player. If Berba goes, then given the fact that most of the Top Four play with 3 CMs, the debate in the other thread was about how Ramos may change formation.

If we signed a Number Ten, a Riquelme or Diego (or even Ronaldinho) type, I wouldn't be surprized to see Ramos switch to a 4-2-3-1, with a lone striker ahead of the ACM (like Liverpool with Torres ahead of Gerrard). So, once again, fundamentally, a Number Ten is largely incompatible with a Ramos Sevilla 4-4-2.

 

[smithym]

thanks for that yanno, nice post

 

[yanno]

thanks for that yanno, nice post

Thanks. :up:

 

[DoublePivot]

Although yanno described it perfectly, the spanish double pivot is kind of like two holding mids. One might be more creative than the other but they both have a deep set point.

 

[nickspurs]

thanks for that yanno, nice post

Seconded yanno. You're now on my 'read posts carefully as they're educational' list

Seriously, I learned a lot on that post. :up:

 

[InOffMeLeftShin]

Although yanno described it perfectly, the spanish double pivot is kind of like two holding mids. One might be more creative than the other but they both have a deep set point.

Like Rafa did with Mascherano, Alonso in mid last season when he was shoving Gerrard out to the right? I have never heard it called a Spanish double pivot, but i like it. I imagine that is the way we will go. I like Gattuso - Alonso/Carrick

 

[smithym]

Seconded yanno. You're now on my 'read posts carefully as they're educational' list

Seriously, I learned a lot on that post. :up:

Threesome?

 

[Blotto]

People seem to be forgetting that Modric can play on the wing as well as the center, that kind of versatility may well appeal to a tactical thinker like Juande. I'll admit that I have only seen him play twice and never seen him play in league competition, but what very little I have seen of him suggests that the hype may not be total shite (though I doubt his real name is "Jesus H. Christ"). Anyway, I don't think there is a connection between Jenas possibly leaving and Modric possibly coming--it seems to me that Hudds would be the one replaced by Modric...(if he were to replace someone)

 

[Bus-Conductor]

smithym - Fundamentally, a Number Ten is largely incompatible with a Ramos Sevilla 4-4-2. Ramos' Sevilla team played (to paraphrase Marcos Alvarez), attacking, compact, with wingers.

So, both FBs (but especially Dani Alves) would get forward a lot, and both wide midfielders were very attacking and would get down the line and cross (right-footed Navas from the right, left-footed Puerta, Adriano, Capel from the left). Kanoute was the linking/fulcrum striker, playing a bit deeper than Fabiano. Because there was so much attacking down the flanks, involving the FBs in very advanced positions, both CMs would be very disciplined.

Poulsen is an out-and-out holding C/DM, who would move across to cover when a FB moved forward. He's not a great passer, but he's tough and a very intelligent team player. The other CM would be more creative: Keita, Renato, Maresca. But again, very disciplined.

Apply this to Spurs, and you can see the logic of our signing Gilberto - a naturally left-footed, very attacking LB/LM - and Hutton - a very attacking RB. And why we've been linked with out-and-out left-wingers - Downing and Capel. All this can be seen as Ramos applying his Sevilla blueprint to Spurs.

However, this system does not allow for a box-to-box CM. Which is why imo Ramos has changed Jenas' game, making him more disciplined, and picking and choosing his forward runs more selectively. Because with attacks coming down the flanks, the CMs primarily have to break up play and protect the defence in Ramos' Sevilla 4-4-2 formation.

Now, again, comparing the Sevilla blueprint, Berba plays the linking/fulcrum role of Kanoute, only even better because he's a world class player. If Berba goes, then given the fact that most of the Top Four play with 3 CMs, the debate in the other thread was about how Ramos may change formation.

If we signed a Number Ten, a Riquelme or Diego (or even Ronaldinho) type, I wouldn't be surprized to see Ramos switch to a 4-2-3-1, with a lone striker ahead of the ACM (like Liverpool with Torres ahead of Gerrard). So, once again, fundamentally, a Number Ten is largely incompatible with a Ramos Sevilla 4-4-2.

I disagree. I think at that particular role Kanoute is possibly the best I've seen (certainly in recent years). He is stronger than Berbatov and his brain works in almost identical ways. He can also drop a shoulder and go past a man as well. I would say Berbatov is possibly cooler in the box. But I get the impression that Berbatov plays the "Kanoute" role a bit reluctantly, don't you ?

They are very very similar. But I really don't think you could say Berbatov is better at that particular role when you watch Seville and us. They have been fantastic and he is a major part of that. You can even take a direct comparison as when they played us he was outstanding, Berbatov wasn't.

 

[yanno]

Although yanno described it perfectly, the spanish double pivot is kind of like two holding mids. One might be more creative than the other but they both have a deep set point.

Absolutely correct, DeadwoodDem. So, to continue the Liverpool example, if Mascherano and Xabi Alonso are the two CMs, Mascherano is the more destructive (Poulsen type) and Alonso the more creative passer and dictator of tempo.

Where to play Gerrard has always been a major problem for Benitez, whose 4-4-2 is less adventurous than Juande's. Benitez doesn't think Gerrard is disciplined enough to play as one of two "Spanish Double Pivot" (copyright DD :wink CMs. So, he's usually stuck him out on the wing - which rarely works.

Recently, Benitez has played two holding CMs, Babel & Kuyt out wide, and Gerrard as an ACM behind Torres: 4-2-3-1. This is what I imagine Juande may do if Berba goes cry, and we sign a Number Ten to replace him.

 

[van_Pommel]

Very good post Yanno.

I think also think that if/when Berba leaves we will switch to 4231. This also allows for very attacking full-backs which I have a feeling Ramos is a big fan of. So, just for fun:

----------------------McGregor-------------------

---------------Woody----------King---------------

-Hutton--------------------------------------Bale-

----------------Gattuso------Hudd-----------------

-Lennon/Arshavin----Arshavin/Modric----Modric/Bale-

-----------------Bent/Keane/other-----------------

Arshavin and Modric are both versatile players, able to play centrally or on the wing. Bale would be good in the left sided position as well but unless Gilberto steps up we need him at LB.

 

[yanno]

I disagree. I think at that particular role Kanoute is possibly the best I've seen (certainly in recent years). He is stronger than Berbatov and his brain works in almost identical ways. He can also drop a shoulder and go past a man as well. I would say Berbatov is possibly cooler in the box. But I get the impression that Berbatov plays the "Kanoute" role a bit reluctantly, don't you ?

They are very very similar. But I really don't think you could say Berbatov is better at that particular role when you watch Seville and us. They have been fantastic and he is a major part of that. You can even take a direct comparison as when they played us he was outstanding, Berbatov wasn't.

B-C: I know it's impossible, but I'm almost as big a Kanoute fan as you. :wink:

However, I do think Fredi has been a much more consistently effective player for Sevilla than he was for us. I know we both agree that Berba has been working much harder since Ramos arrived as well. Ramos' Sevilla 4-4-2 really suits a technically gifted striker with vision, touch and the ability to hold the ball up and link play. It helps if they're good in the air too (which seems to rule Keano out for the fulcrum role...)

I think Kanoute is a top player and, if Berba goes, and Ramos wants to continue playing his Sevilla 4-4-2 formation, I'd rather have Fredi back than Crouch.

 

[smithym]

Fredi over crouch any day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DC_Boy]

As B-C well knows - I was not a Fredi fan and from what they've acheived in the Prem I would say Crouch has done the best - so I'd rather have Crouch -

Yes FK did well in Seville but who's to say he wouldn't go back to his 'Spurs ways' if he came back here

and yes lots of people think he we was really good - but I didn't, neither did Jol, neither did Levy, and neither did a lot of other spurs fans

BTW i'm only writing this to ensure this thread lasts 100 pages :wink:

But those fairly new to SC should realise the Kanoute question dwarfs even the Jenas & Zokora questions - but if people want to bring it up - well can of wormmmsssss

 

[yanno]

BTW i'm only writing this to ensure this thread lasts 100 pages :wink:

But those fairly new to SC should realise the Kanoute question dwarfs even the Jenas & Zokora questions - but if people want to bring it up - well can of wormmmsssss

DC_Boy - you're making mischief... :grin:

Fwiw I hope this doesn't degenerate into a "Fredi is the Messiah" versus "Fredi is lazy cack" thread, but it may well provide the ultimate truth of Alan Shearer's favourite saying: "it's a game of opinions".