Spurs U21’s, U18’s and other youth news – 2015/16 Edition

[Blake Griffin]

You've pretty much covered it. I'd imagine that in the domestic cups we could well see CCV, Walker-Peters, Ward (if he stays - its kind of make our mind up time with him next year), Winks, Harrison, Pritchard (see Ward) I'd also include Ogilvie (ditto Ward), Maghoma (highly rated centre back), I also have a sneaky suspicion that Poch likes the look of Miller, he'd be a bit of a dark horse but he's been very involved in first team training, more so than the U21 dead wood. The other obvious name is Edwards but whether he's mature enough I really don't know. I can't see Poch liking his attitude one bit.

how is kwp going to play when we already have two established right backs? he needs to go on loan. same for ogilvie. maghoma is nowhere near the first team and i'm not sure is as highly rated as you imply, everyone's favourite whipping boy walkes is currently ahead of him imo. also can we stop with this edwards attitude nonsense as just like with bentaleb it's based on very little.

 

[WindyCOYS]

how is kwp going to play when we already have two established right backs? he needs to go on loan. same for ogilvie. maghoma is nowhere near the first team and i'm not sure is as highly rated as you imply, everyone's favourite whipping boy walkes is currently ahead of him imo. also can we stop with this edwards attitude nonsense as just like with bentaleb it's based on very little.

Interested to see the loan policy next year, as we have become more fussy it seems. If Walker-Peters could spend 5 months in League One and then 5 months in the Championship, it would represent huge progress IMO. Would suggest Rangers but they have a very settled right-back in Tavernier.

Like you, I remain unconvinced on Maghoma. Next year is a big one for him.

 

[longtimespur]

Toulon Tournament final on BT Sport Europe at 5 pm London time.

England v France.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Has anyone compiled a list of spurs academy players likely to be involved in tournaments this summer ?

@Spursidol @IGSpur @WindyCOYS etc

 

[Spursidol]

E u19's apparently tried to call up Luke Amos to replace Lewis Cook, but apparently Amos is out injured for the next month or so, op on his back

 

[Spursidol]

Has anyone compiled a list of spurs academy players likely to be involved in tournaments this summer ?

@Spursidol @IGSpur @WindyCOYS etc

http://www.thefa.com/news/england/d...gland-under-19s-squad-named-for-mexico-150516
Onomah and Walker-Peters

 

[beats1]

http://www.thefa.com/news/england/d...gland-under-19s-squad-named-for-mexico-150516
Onomah and Walker-Peters

Hopefully KWP should start, Kenny had a decent first half of the season with wigan before an odd move down to league 2 despite the fact wigan wanted to keep him earlier in the season, though he wasnt playing rb for wigan and was more RWB

 

[Blake Griffin]

Hopefully KWP should, Kenny had a decent first half of the season with wigan before an odd move down to league 2 despite the fact wigan wanted to keep him earlier in the season, though he wasnt playing rb for wigan and was more RWB

kwp started in the win against spain so i don't see why he won't keep his place for the tournament. roberts isn't going so maybe that'll open up the possibility of playing a 442 diamond as the squad has a lot of good strikers, would suit onomah more rather than playing off the striker, even if he has got a few goals for them recently.

 

[longtimespur]

England 2-0 up Baker and Loftus-Cheek just coming up to half-time.

 

[longtimespur]

England victorious in Toulon.
Beat France 2-1 to win the title, first time since 1994.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think BC suggesting that Harrison can be used as a temporary CF is giving me an hmmm' moment right here. I don't think he is ready. He is not as physical as Rashford although Harrison has more pace perhaps. Rashford uses his presence and positioning to intimidate CB's and looks like he has had some really good coaching or maybe the lad has natural striker instincts as well and its all come together at the right time like it did for Kane.

Plus I don't think Harrison has come along as well as hoped. Didn't McDermott give a talk recently where he mentioned Poch commenting to him, within clear earshot of Harrison, words to the effect of 'John, I think he is too lazy'? When I compare what I have seen of Harrison to Rashford, its like chalk and cheese at the moment. One is still playing with boys while the other is challenging grown men and owning them. Do I need a prescription at Specsavers or could I be right?

There is a tendency on here to big up our youth to unrealistic levels. I know we have a bunch of great talented youngsters waiting in the wings but they need to be given time. Lastly, get used to the idea that some of them aint gonna make it people. They are not all like Kane, Dier and Alli.

Ive copied this post in here as the conversation is taking into a very non ITK direction and we don't don't want smacked arses.

Not all players have to be physical specimens to succeed. This is a very English attitude to youth development. Qualities like character, mentality, application, intelligence, technique & composure are far more important IMO.

If I'd said Harrison is ready to be our regular starting cf I could understand your questioning of my judgement, but I said ready to be 3rd or 4th choice.

It is not waiting time that our - most talented - kids need, it is a proper opportunity to succeed or fail.

And a handful of starts in domestic cups and ad hoc minutes elsewhere is the very least the best kids are ready for.

We potentially have Alli's, Dier's, Batshuayi's, Njie's etc here already, we just need to start doing what the club's we bought/ buy them from did, and giving them opportunities.

 

[Blake Griffin]

i just think the majority of fans have such a warped outlook when it comes to young players.

maybe i'm completely wrong here and it's easy to deny given hindsight but i'm pretty confident that if rashford was a spurs youth he'd still be playing with boys as @Flashspur put it and fans would be just as dismissive of him as they are with harrison. i'm not even totally convinced by harrison myself but rashford had proven no more than he had six months ago so why's it so outlandish to think harrison could do a job as a 3rd/4th choice striker. ultimately until you put them in you'll never know if they're "ready" or not.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

i just think the majority of fans have such a warped outlook when it comes to young players.

maybe i'm completely wrong here and it's easy to deny given hindsight but i'm pretty confident that if rashford was a spurs youth he'd still be playing with boys as @Flashspur put it and fans would be just as dismissive of him as they are with harrison. i'm not even totally convinced by harrison myself but rashford had proven no more than he had six months ago so why's it so outlandish to think harrison could do a job as a 3rd/4th choice striker. ultimately until you put them in you'll never know if they're "ready" or not.

I don't think it's very easy to be convinced that any kid will have what it takes to make it in the EPL, because we all know than even bags of raw talent isn't enough to succeed. But I think there are certain kids who you can be convinced deserve some kind of opportunity to either succeed or fail - when stacked against purchases we make particularly. And that has to be more than 15 minutes a season.

Caulker, Livermore and Townsend (and going back the likes of Marney and Ohara) are good examples of kids who ultimately weren't good enough/right for us. That's fine. No problem, and I was just as quick to say that about them as I was about purchases. But we still made very decent money from their "failure", more than we generally make from our failed purchases that generally get a lot more opportunity to "fail".

I just think there is some logic in giving a kid who's been coached in the ethos and tactics of the club a chance to "fail" than always assuming that a purchase represents less of a gamble.

 

[longtimespur]

i just think the majority of fans have such a warped outlook when it comes to young players.

maybe i'm completely wrong here and it's easy to deny given hindsight but i'm pretty confident that if rashford was a spurs youth he'd still be playing with boys as @Flashspur put it and fans would be just as dismissive of him as they are with harrison. i'm not even totally convinced by harrison myself but rashford had proven no more than he had six months ago so why's it so outlandish to think harrison could do a job as a 3rd/4th choice striker. ultimately until you put them in you'll never know if they're "ready" or not.

I am pretty sure that without all the injuries and lack of form from the Man Utd strikers he'd still be playing youth football there too. And we fans who don't follow other teams youth would not have heard of him.

 

[Spursidol]

@Flashspur said: in the Daily Transfer thread ↑

''I think BC suggesting that Harrison can be used as a temporary CF is giving me an hmmm' moment right here. I don't think he is ready. He is not as physical as Rashford although Harrison has more pace perhaps. Rashford uses his presence and positioning to intimidate CB's and looks like he has had some really good coaching or maybe the lad has natural striker instincts as well and its all come together at the right time like it did for Kane.

Plus I don't think Harrison has come along as well as hoped. Didn't McDermott give a talk recently where he mentioned Poch commenting to him, within clear earshot of Harrison, words to the effect of 'John, I think he is too lazy'? When I compare what I have seen of Harrison to Rashford, its like chalk and cheese at the moment. One is still playing with boys while the other is challenging grown men and owning them. Do I need a prescription at Specsavers or could I be right?

There is a tendency on here to big up our youth to unrealistic levels. I know we have a bunch of great talented youngsters waiting in the wings but they need to be given time. Lastly, get used to the idea that some of them aint gonna make it people. They are not all like Kane, Dier and Alli.''


Firstly can I say that NO serious youth watcher has ever suggested that all of them are going to make it.

In most youth academies it would be good going to get one a year - Spurs have done exceptionally well over the last few years to get Caulker, Livermore, Townsend, Rose, Mason, Bentaleb, Kane, Onomah and arguably Pritchard with one brief appearance for Spurs - averaging just less than 2 per season.

Of course some of these have moved on - but all of them did a decent job for us as 'squad players' whilst they were here. As I made clear in my post, I wasn't expecting Kane to make the impact he has in the time he has - I've always said think of the youngsters coming through as squad players with once every 6 or 10 we'll get a real first teamer, and I stand by that. Its just exceptionally difficult to know which of the lads coming through might be that star.

Youngsters at age 19/20 can change pretty rapidly - so the Harrison you say you saw last season, may be a different player after a 3 month summer break - it happens.

However with the Euros finals being on 10 July (and quarter finals a week before, which England and Belgium should both make), and the players being entitled to a 3 week break after the euros (taking us up to end July) whilst the season starts on 13 August, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that Poch may well need to use some youngsters in the pre-season friendlies (as he did last season) - so if he tries out Harrison as one of them that'll be a good chance to see if Harrison can take his chance or not.

And by the way Capoue Soldado, Chirches and others say Hi when you say 'get used to the idea that some of them aint gonna make it people. They are not all like Kane, Dier and Alli'

 

[Spursidol]

@Flashspur said in the Daily transfer thread:
↑
'Yes I suppose the people who see our youth system as an unqualified success would point to Kane, Mason, Benteleb and Townsend. Livermore may be the other one. But the reality is that of that bunch, Benteleb came into the youth group at a much older age. Plus the other real successes to Kane - Rose, Walker, Dier, Alli - have all been bought from other clubs and were products of their youth systems. Perhaps if Onomah and Pritchard can kick on this season we can claim that our youth system is in rude health and the assembly line continues.

What this points to is having a good scouting system to augment your youth set up as there are a lot of other gems out there as well.'

I don't want to disrail this thread but you appear to be wanting to spread a great deal of dis-information concerning our youth players.

Rose - joined Spurs from Leeds aged 17 (without ever having made an appearance at Leeds first team) and played a season for Spurs u18's, some of the other u18's will have joined a year earlier to take up a 'scholarship', other kids will have been there from an earlier age. Many kids change the clubs they are training with several times before joining Spurs at 16 or 17 - Kane trained with both Watford and Arsenal and other academies before joining Spurs. David Beckham trained at Spurs from the age of about 8 to 14 before joining ManU - do you think of him as a ManU player or a Spurs player ? So Rose is very much a youth product and counts as a Club Trained player under UEFA rules.

Bentaleb - Again joined Spurs aged 17 without having troubled the first team of his previous club(s), and played for Spurs u18's for a season before joining Spurs u21's

Walker had played first team football for Sheffileld United as well as being older, so he clearly is not a Spurs youth player (although its certainly true that Spurs 'polished' him up), and the same argument would follow for Dier (even older when he joined) and Alli

And lastly, nobody in their right minds (and certainly none of the youth watchers) would suggest we solely rely on youth players coming through - its taken as read that we need a good scouting system to find other good players. However we shouldn't buy players for the sake of it where we have good youngsters available - its a balancing act - and that does require some of them to be given opportunities in pre-season friendlies and/or first team matches to see if they can hack it..

 

[FibreOpticJesus]

Youngsters at age 19/20 can change pretty rapidly - so the Harrison you say you saw last season, may be a different player after a 3 month summer break - it happens.

Loan the youth out to prem and Championship teams who have the same philosophy as us. No good playing in under 18 &21 team comps. Getting real experience worked for most of our young players.

 

[edson]

Youngsters at age 19/20 can change pretty rapidly - so the Harrison you say you saw last season, may be a different player after a 3 month summer break - it happens.

Loan the youth out to prem and Championship teams who have the same philosophy as us. No good playing in under 18 &21 team comps. Getting real experience worked for most of our young players.

U18s is OK it is a good standard and works well for that age group,the u21s is a mess and as you say loans would be better option for our highly rated players have seen a lot of players go stale and not push on or improve at u21 level.Think a youth player needs about 15 games of first team football before you can evaluate if he is good enough but if he is very young like Onomah than he will need need a lot more time.Harrison name seems to be popping up a lot recently and other post are right when it comes to bringing up his weaknesses but one thing no one can deny is he scores goals maybe a good loan would be good for him.

 

[Flashspur]

@Flashspur said in the Daily transfer thread:
↑
'Yes I suppose the people who see our youth system as an unqualified success would point to Kane, Mason, Benteleb and Townsend. Livermore may be the other one. But the reality is that of that bunch, Benteleb came into the youth group at a much older age. Plus the other real successes to Kane - Rose, Walker, Dier, Alli - have all been bought from other clubs and were products of their youth systems. Perhaps if Onomah and Pritchard can kick on this season we can claim that our youth system is in rude health and the assembly line continues.

What this points to is having a good scouting system to augment your youth set up as there are a lot of other gems out there as well.'

I don't want to disrail this thread but you appear to be wanting to spread a great deal of dis-information concerning our youth players.

Rose - joined Spurs from Leeds aged 17 (without ever having made an appearance at Leeds first team) and played a season for Spurs u18's, some of the other u18's will have joined a year earlier to take up a 'scholarship', other kids will have been there from an earlier age. Many kids change the clubs they are training with several times before joining Spurs at 16 or 17 - Kane trained with both Watford and Arsenal and other academies before joining Spurs. David Beckham trained at Spurs from the age of about 8 to 14 before joining ManU - do you think of him as a ManU player or a Spurs player ? So Rose is very much a youth product and counts as a Club Trained player under UEFA rules.

Bentaleb - Again joined Spurs aged 17 without having troubled the first team of his previous club(s), and played for Spurs u18's for a season before joining Spurs u21's

Walker had played first team football for Sheffileld United as well as being older, so he clearly is not a Spurs youth player (although its certainly true that Spurs 'polished' him up), and the same argument would follow for Dier (even older when he joined) and Alli

And lastly, nobody in their right minds (and certainly none of the youth watchers) would suggest we solely rely on youth players coming through - its taken as read that we need a good scouting system to find other good players. However we shouldn't buy players for the sake of it where we have good youngsters available - its a balancing act - and that does require some of them to be given opportunities in pre-season friendlies and/or first team matches to see if they can hack it..

I understand your point Spursidol. but I still feel that our youth set up has under-performed to a certain extent. Yes it seems successful in terms of end product however I don't see exceptional home grown talent with the exception of Harry Kane - with perhaps only Andros Townsend considered a regular PL starter. The likes of Livermore and Caulker haven't set the world alight either. I don't think the others have proven their worth yet by any means. The jury is still out on Benteleb, Winks, Pritchard, Onomah and Harrison as well. Sorry guys. I'd love us to have another Kane in the wings but i don't think it will happen in 2016/17.

 

[Sweech]

Interested to see the loan policy next year, as we have become more fussy it seems. If Walker-Peters could spend 5 months in League One and then 5 months in the Championship, it would represent huge progress IMO. Would suggest Rangers but they have a very settled right-back in Tavernier.

Like you, I remain unconvinced on Maghoma. Next year is a big one for him.

What positions do the Rangers still need to fill?