Spurs U21’s, U18’s and other youth news – 2015/16 Edition

[Spursidol]

I understand your point Spursidol. but I still feel that our youth set up has under-performed to a certain extent. Yes it seems successful in terms of end product however I don't see exceptional home grown talent with the exception of Harry Kane - with perhaps only Andros Townsend considered a regular PL starter. The likes of Livermore and Caulker haven't set the world alight either. I don't think the others have proven their worth yet by any means. The jury is still out on Benteleb, Winks, Pritchard, Onomah and Harrison as well. Sorry guys. I'd love us to have another Kane in the wings but i don't think it will happen in 2016/17.

Everyone can have an opinion, but right now most independent youth watchers would probably put us in the top 3 Academies in the UK over the last 3-5 year period, along with Chelsea and ManCity - overtaking the likes of Southampton and ManU along the way. We would probably also be put in the top 10 academies in Europe as well - others would probably include Barcelona, Feyenoord, Ajax, Sporting Lisbon et al.

The reason is that it is the exception rather than the rule to bring youth players through the academy and for them to go on to be PL footballers, let alone play for a top 4/top 6 team like Spurs.

So the players I say we have brought through - Mason, Bentaleb, Townsend, Caulker, Livermore et al you may only consider to be squad players for a PL team, but that in itself is still a huge achievement.

How many other PL teams have a first team regular like Harry Kane in their side who has come through their academy at the moment ?

He's the exception, not the rule, so please don't think we should be bringing one of that calibre through every season - the hope will kill you.

There's probably about 6 academy products I'd like to see Poch try out in pre-season, of whom Harrison is one. But of these 6 I'd be surprised if more than 3 ever became squad players let alone a first team regular like Kane. The reason is that all 6 have talent, but can they show that at first team level ? Do they have the application to make it at first team level and lastly will Poch give any of them enough of a chance given there are so many possible ,good young players. And I certainly don't expect any of them to become as good as Harry Kane overnight in 2016/17 Although anything is possible - its just not probable

 

[Frozen_Waffles]

I don't think it's very easy to be convinced that any kid will have what it takes to make it in the EPL, because we all know than even bags of raw talent isn't enough to succeed. But I think there are certain kids who you can be convinced deserve some kind of opportunity to either succeed or fail - when stacked against purchases we make particularly. And that has to be more than 15 minutes a season.

Caulker, Livermore and Townsend (and going back the likes of Marney and Ohara) are good examples of kids who ultimately weren't good enough/right for us. That's fine. No problem, and I was just as quick to say that about them as I was about purchases. But we still made very decent money from their "failure", more than we generally make from our failed purchases that generally get a lot more opportunity to "fail".

I just think there is some logic in giving a kid who's been coached in the ethos and tactics of the club a chance to "fail" than always assuming that a purchase represents less of a gamble.

I think it all depends on the player himself and if he has the mentality, something that is very difficult to judge by watching youth players. The few youth games I have watched over the last 5/6 years, there is only a few that I thought could make it in the PL, Kane, Carroll and KWP being the three that really caught the eye.

I remember watching a guy called Terry Dixon, who was the best player on the pitch, he was also incredibly violent, some horrible tackles and screaming at the ref. He was a disgrace to the club in my opinon. But he got a bad injury and never came back (I think he went to West ham for a time) you cannot tell how these players will develop.

I have not seen a youth game for a couple of years now, so I am a bit out of the loop. I remember watching Adam Smith and I thought he would be in the first team. As you say, it is how you qualify a success, he is in a Premiership squad, so has still made it. I think as long as the players are given the chance then that is the most important thing, if they do not make it at Spurs, given the quality of the academy most of the players, they have a good chance of making it somewhere. However they need to be given a run of games.

 

[edson]

I think it all depends on the player himself and if he has the mentality, something that is very difficult to judge by watching youth players. The few youth games I have watched over the last 5/6 years, there is only a few that I thought could make it in the PL, Kane, Carroll and KWP being the three that really caught the eye.

I remember watching a guy called Terry Dixon, who was the best player on the pitch, he was also incredibly violent, some horrible tackles and screaming at the ref. He was a disgrace to the club in my opinon. But he got a bad injury and never came back (I think he went to West ham for a time) you cannot tell how these players will develop.

I have not seen a youth game for a couple of years now, so I am a bit out of the loop. I remember watching Adam Smith and I thought he would be in the first team. As you say, it is how you qualify a success, he is in a Premiership squad, so has still made it. I think as long as the players are given the chance then that is the most important thing, if they do not make it at Spurs, given the quality of the academy most of the players, they have a good chance of making it somewhere. However they need to be given a run of games.

Terry Dixon could have been a star if it was not for the bad Knees that stopped him from training and your right he was a bit of a Lad but he was talented this is him at Spurs and after.

 

[Spursidol]

Interested to see the loan policy next year, as we have become more fussy it seems. If Walker-Peters could spend 5 months in League One and then 5 months in the Championship, it would represent huge progress IMO. Would suggest Rangers but they have a very settled right-back in Tavernier.

Like you, I remain unconvinced on Maghoma. Next year is a big one for him.

The loan policy will need to be very 'unfussy' if we really are keeping the majority of this season's development squad as well as promoting about 5 or 6 from this season's Academy Year 2 to it - we would then have a very large development squad of getting close to 30 players, so would need maybe 15 on loan to allow the other 15 to play u21 tootball

 

[beats1]

kwp started in the win against spain so i don't see why he won't keep his place for the tournament. roberts isn't going so maybe that'll open up the possibility of playing a 442 diamond as the squad has a lot of good strikers, would suit onomah more rather than playing off the striker, even if he has got a few goals for them recently.

How come Roberts hasnt been selected? Havent heard of any injury news

Its a hard one as the last time we went with the diamond, we went with Brown in the hole. IMO Brown shouldn't been playing but he seems to be loved by the England coaches

i just think the majority of fans have such a warped outlook when it comes to young players.

maybe i'm completely wrong here and it's easy to deny given hindsight but i'm pretty confident that if rashford was a spurs youth he'd still be playing with boys as @Flashspur put it and fans would be just as dismissive of him as they are with harrison. i'm not even totally convinced by harrison myself but rashford had proven no more than he had six months ago so why's it so outlandish to think harrison could do a job as a 3rd/4th choice striker. ultimately until you put them in you'll never know if they're "ready" or not.

I said at the start season Harrison isn't ready but he has come on a bit but in the absence of no striker in europa, its crazy to not even see him on the bench

Also Rashford was never that great at U21's, Harrison was far better the suggestion that he has been good or has the attributes imo is laughable.

I get to see united quite a bit as Im living in derbyshire, and Im only less than an hour away from their U21 ground and my dad is a big united fan who goes a lot, I go to them more than spurs.

Rashford has only one goal at that level and everyone over at united 6 months ago were panicking about the state of their academy.

Funny that people forget that people were laughing at united 6 months ago and Rashford was part of that team that 3 wins out of 18.

Of course winning isn't important but don't forget this is an academy that has changed most of its coaching staff at that level and tried to get mcdermott. No one was talking about McDermott having the chance to work with great talents like Rashford then, they were laughing

http://www.eurosport.co.uk/football...-does-it-really-matter_sto5095203/story.shtml

Here is the story about man utd losing 12 games in a row

 

[Spursidol]

How come Roberts hasnt been selected? Havent heard of any injury news

Its a hard one as the last time we went with the diamond, we went with Brown in the hole. IMO Brown shouldn't been playing but he seems to be loved by the England coaches

I said at the start season Harrison isn't ready but he has come on a bit but in the absence of no striker in europa, its crazy to not even see him on the bench

Also Rashford was never that great at U21's, Harrison was far better the suggestion that he has been good is laughable or has the attributes imo. I get to see united quite a bit as Im only less than an hour away from their U21 ground and my dad is a big united fan who goes a lot .

Rashford has only one goal at that level and everyone over at united 6 months ago were panicking about the state of their academy. Funny that people forget that people were laughing at united 6 months ago and Rashford was part of that team that 3 wins out of 18. Of course winning isn't important but don't forget this is an academy that has changed most of its coaching staff at that level and tried to get mcdermott. No one was talking about McDermott having the chance to work with great talents like Rashford then, they were laughing

http://www.eurosport.co.uk/football...-does-it-really-matter_sto5095203/story.shtml

Here is the story about man utd losing 12 games in a row

yup forgot to mention to @Flashspur Rashfrd's early season form

 

[beats1]

Also I would highlight this group of lads were one of our most talented intake to date and some havent kicked on and others havent got the same chances as their peers before them.

When you are talking about Winks and Onomah, you are talking about two of our most talented players we have had. Amos and Oduwa looked like top talents when they signed as well not to mention Miller who has always been good imo.

Then you have edwards, another great talent but because he has a lot of good press people who don't follow the academy consider him a world class talent and he gets the hype. This second half of the season he has been very good.

It does appear if you are one of the better players for england you will get more hype, which is sad because Onomah, Amos, KWP, Harrison and CCV are apart of the one of the best england groups I have ever seen.

I watch(less so nowadays) a lot of spanish youth teams and this england team would give the 93/94 group a run for their money

 

[Blake Griffin]

How come Roberts hasnt been selected? Havent heard of any injury news

Its a hard one as the last time we went with the diamond, we went with Brown in the hole. IMO Brown shouldn't been playing but he seems to be loved by the England coaches

celtic don't want him to go as they need him for cl qualifiers. tbh i thought there might be a chance edwards gets bumped up an age group but on the plus side it means he'll be here for pre season.

 

[IGSpur]

He's the exception, not the rule, so please don't think we should be bringing one of that calibre through every season - the hope will kill you.

I think like you say people need to understand or decide what it is they think an academy should do and what they consider a success. I consider a player making it in the Prem firstly a success and anything more is great. However there are many that can do a job for Spurs which is great.

However everyone seems to think they are a failure if they are not a Kane. When you quote all the academy players that have done well for us, or even come through other academies as evidence they're good enough, often people will state it is an exception to the rule, however it clearly isn't as you can count more success than failure whenever someone has been given a chance, noone has ever gone down like a blimp. Kane could also be considered an exception to the rule regarding how good he has become but we won't know as we don't get as many given a chance as we do bought players.

The percentage of youth players who receive more than 10 appearances, becoming World Class or certified first team players for us is probably the same or greater than that of bought players, so I don't get why there is so much doubt around them.

If they were also afforded the same patience we might be surprised by what we expect. I don't for one minute think they will all become top class, but people really underrate anyone without experience forgetting that all the players that we desire or end up buying were given a chance at one point in a weaker league. They weren't just top class from the beginning.

The way prices are being quoted at the moment for players is ridiculous and we need to be looking even more towards our academy so we can really spend the money where it matters, however I can already see us being in the CL becoming even more of an excuse to give less chances than even last season as it seems only players from abroad are good enough for that level. Funnily enough Chelsea get slagged off for not giving youth chances while consistently challenging for the title and being in CL and already in our second season even suggesting playing a young player will get people calling you crazy

 

[WindyCOYS]

How come Roberts hasnt been selected? Havent heard of any injury news

Its a hard one as the last time we went with the diamond, we went with Brown in the hole. IMO Brown shouldn't been playing but he seems to be loved by the England coaches

I said at the start season Harrison isn't ready but he has come on a bit but in the absence of no striker in europa, its crazy to not even see him on the bench

Also Rashford was never that great at U21's, Harrison was far better the suggestion that he has been good or has the attributes imo is laughable.

I get to see united quite a bit as Im living in derbyshire, and Im only less than an hour away from their U21 ground and my dad is a big united fan who goes a lot, I go to them more than spurs.

Rashford has only one goal at that level and everyone over at united 6 months ago were panicking about the state of their academy.

Funny that people forget that people were laughing at united 6 months ago and Rashford was part of that team that 3 wins out of 18.

Of course winning isn't important but don't forget this is an academy that has changed most of its coaching staff at that level and tried to get mcdermott. No one was talking about McDermott having the chance to work with great talents like Rashford then, they were laughing

http://www.eurosport.co.uk/football...-does-it-really-matter_sto5095203/story.shtml

Here is the story about man utd losing 12 games in a row

Personally I think the argument that you are making - essentially that you just don't know how well a player will do until you give them a try - is broadly right. But that the player you're using as an example is not the best.

I think Harrison is a reasonable player, but he's not close to being one of the best in the Academy and, whilst he has consistently scored goals at a dacent rate, his overall game is generally not that great. Personally, I would be really surprised to see him make a top-flight career. A League One or Two loan would tell us more, but just now he's not there for me, and he's never been an oustanding prospect (despite having an excellent scoring record).

I don't remember seeing too much of Rashford at the various youth levels (which arguably shows that he never stood out!), but his movement is exceptional - Harrison doesn't have movement anywhere near as good as that. He's also physically ready, which puts him at an advantage.

 

[beats1]

Personally I think the argument that you are making - essentially that you just don't know how well a player will do until you give them a try - is broadly right. But that the player you're using as an example is not the best.

I think Harrison is a reasonable player, but he's not close to being one of the best in the Academy and, whilst he has consistently scored goals at a dacent rate, his overall game is generally not that great. Personally, I would be really surprised to see him make a top-flight career. A League One or Two loan would tell us more, but just now he's not there for me, and he's never been an oustanding prospect (despite having an excellent scoring record).

I don't remember seeing too much of Rashford at the various youth levels (which arguably shows that he never stood out!), but his movement is exceptional - Harrison doesn't have movement anywhere near as good as that. He's also physically ready, which puts him at an advantage.

I agree on Harrison not being a standout player but the issue I have with the whole Harrison debacle is that in the absence of no other striker he should at least be making the bench.

I never consider Harrison to be a great stand out player but he has improved over the last 12 months despite having many injuries and was pulled from the U21's a couple of times to cover for Kane.

So essentially my argument is in the absence of any striker I rather have youth player there rather than throwing a player out of position and it not really working.

Rashford's movement was never good at the lower levels to the way it is now and imo he has improved on it as he been instructed to go in to the spaces as he is young. I seen LVG do it before with his young strikers. He has been finding the gaps as he isn't the at big powerful striker.

TBH you wouldn't have seen Rashford as he has been in and out of U18's level for the past 3 seasons. Whilst Harrison may not be a top talent, Rashford wasnt either but he got lucky from injuries.

 

[beats1]

Also disappointing to hear about Pritchard, I expected it to happen but clearly somebody has thrown that plan out the window of getting players ready when you're 23

 

[razzmaster]

Although Harrison doesn't have the all round game of Kane, he certainly knows where the goal is and seems to always turn up for the big matches. For those reasons I would be interested to see how he does if given a chance as I think he might just surprise a few people.

 

[Blake Griffin]

Also disappointing to hear about Pritchard, I expected it to happen but clearly somebody has thrown that plan out the window of getting players ready when you're 23

it doesn't exactly send a great message to other academy players either does it(if it turns out to be true). pritchard's basically been a model loanee(ignoring the west brom farce) so if he gets sold without even having the chance to prove himself then others may wonder whether they might be better off finding a permanent home elsewhere rather than going down the whole loan route for 2-3 years.

 

[spursfan77]

it doesn't exactly send a great message to other academy players either does it(if it turns out to be true). pritchard's basically been a model loanee(ignoring the west brom farce) so if he gets sold without even having the chance to prove himself then others may wonder whether they might be better off finding a permanent home elsewhere rather than going down the whole loan route for 2-3 years.

I think it's ridiculous to sell him without giving him a proper chance. All I can think of is that he's had a couple of ankle injuries and maybe he's not the same player that he was 18 months ago?

 

[newbie]

I think like you say people need to understand or decide what it is they think an academy should do and what they consider a success. I consider a player making it in the Prem firstly a success and anything more is great. However there are many that can do a job for Spurs which is great.

However everyone seems to think they are a failure if they are not a Kane. When you quote all the academy players that have done well for us, or even come through other academies as evidence they're good enough, often people will state it is an exception to the rule, however it clearly isn't as you can count more success than failure whenever someone has been given a chance, noone has ever gone down like a blimp. Kane could also be considered an exception to the rule regarding how good he has become but we won't know as we don't get as many given a chance as we do bought players.

The percentage of youth players who receive more than 10 appearances, becoming World Class or certified first team players for us is probably the same or greater than that of bought players, so I don't get why there is so much doubt around them.

If they were also afforded the same patience we might be surprised by what we expect. I don't for one minute think they will all become top class, but people really underrate anyone without experience forgetting that all the players that we desire or end up buying were given a chance at one point in a weaker league. They weren't just top class from the beginning.

The way prices are being quoted at the moment for players is ridiculous and we need to be looking even more towards our academy so we can really spend the money where it matters, however I can already see us being in the CL becoming even more of an excuse to give less chances than even last season as it seems only players from abroad are good enough for that level. Funnily enough Chelsea get slagged off for not giving youth chances while consistently challenging for the title and being in CL and already in our second season even suggesting playing a young player will get people calling you crazy

Agree with your post was going to write a few pages back,

I think the success of the academy really is the value added to a player, as a person and a footballer, it's not just how many make it in to the first team it's how many leave and make a career/ living from football professionally. Here we have been really good in recent years, we are not holding on to players way to long anymore.

In my eyes scouting is separate element the accademy can only coach what it's been given, I think out scouting is good, esp when city, Chelsea eat pay a shit tonne more than us for young players, so we have to be better at getting kids early, better at coaching and better at first team integration.

First team integration again this is really important but again not part of the accademy John mc can't pick the first team. However it's pointless having an accademy if you don't give opportunities unless you reverse money ball the players to fund the first team.


Next season will be interesting, it will be very hard to give game time to young players unless we have injuries, I hope poch pushes on and uses Winks, Pritchard, bents, onomah, oduwa, Harrison, CCV, KWP, Edwards but I think it will be wishful thinking that more than 3-4 get proper game time next year. Will the stadium be a blessing in the short run? I like poch but I honestly don't know how I would fit in all our players integrate youth, who I would sell/ drop not like we had anyone have a bad season if you factor in injuries. Yes Son, mason, bents, chadders had disrupted seasons and Never got going, but all have talent and all could prove there worth. So although I agree with a lot of posters I really think youth integration is going to get tougher and tougher.

 

[IGSpur]

Next season will be interesting, I think there will be surprises I hope poch pushes on and uses Winks, Pritchard, bents, onomah, oduwa, Harrison, CCV, KWP, Edwards but I think it will be wishful thinking that more than 3-4 get proper game time next year. Will the stadium be a blessing in the short run? I like poch but I honestly don't know how I would fit in all our players integrate youth, who I would sell/ drop not like we had anyone have a bad season if you factor in injuries. Yes Son, mason, bents, chadders had disrupted seasons and Never got going, but all have talent and all could prove there worth. So although I agree with a lot of posters I really think youth integration is going to get tougher and tougher.

No way this will happen. I said I wouldn't judge Poch on his introduction on youth players after his first season, and after his second season I'm surprised even Onomah got as many minutes as he did. Now in a CL season I can't see anymore than maybe one more new player getting chances, if that, I just hope one of Winks or Onomah get more chances, but again I'm not optimistic. Best chance is Pritchard IF he stays. KWP won't get a chance. We are buying at least one striker I can't see Harrison getting a sniff as Son or N'jie will play up top. I can't see Edwards getting the field. I don't even see both Winks and Onomah getting chances. Outside of Pritch next best is CCV. Who will get a League Cup match or sub appearance if he's lucky. If we don't buy a DM Ball may get a chance too.

Most likely scenario any of them get chances is in the LC but Bentaleb and Mason will prob play. If we get knocked out of CL group stage and end up in EL who knows after that.

 

[Sarsipius]

Sorry to change tack in the discussion but going back to the topic of how many players the academy actually produces, I was wondering on a related note how much people think it costs to run the academy on a yearly basis, including wages of the staff, etc?

It strikes me that a well run academy such as ours is just a no brainer when you consider the financial aspect it can contribute to a club. Even if you only produce one Harry Kane, Ledley King, Sol C******* a footballing generation (10-15 years), the number of players of PL quality which are produced and sold (Caulker, Livermore, Townsend etc) surely far outweighs the cost of the academy itself.

Does it go some way to explaining why THFC is actually £40m+ on the balance sheets over the last five years? When prices for English players are so ridiculously high, why wouldn't you want a conveyor belt of talent coming through?

Not to mention the fact that you have a whole system set up to preparing young players for first team allowing us to bring in young players from elsewhere (the two Kyle's, Rose, etc) and give them a sense of the club and the requirements expected of them.

Personally I think we're probably the best run club in the country and loving all the hard work which seems to be coming to fruition.

 

[newbie]

No way this will happen. I said I wouldn't judge Poch on his introduction on youth players after his first season, and after his second season I'm surprised even Onomah got as many minutes as he did. Now in a CL season I can't see anymore than maybe one more new player getting chances, if that, I just hope one of Winks or Onomah get more chances, but again I'm not optimistic. Best chance is Pritchard IF he stays. KWP won't get a chance. We are buying at least one striker I can't see Harrison getting a sniff as Son or N'jie will play up top. I can't see Edwards getting the field. I don't even see both Winks and Onomah getting chances. Outside of Pritch next best is CCV. Who will get a League Cup match or sub appearance if he's lucky. If we don't buy a DM Ball may get a chance too.

Most likely scenario any of them get chances is in the LC but Bentaleb and Mason will prob play. If we get knocked out of CL group stage and end up in EL who knows after that.

You have mis understood my post I am saying it's going to very hard to integrate more young players. I am saying its going to one hell of a challenge to integrate players, I think I must have been distracted re reading my last paragraph it was meant to sound very different.

I think 2 of Carroll, mason, bents will properly be sold, next year could be a bit depressing on this forum.

 

[Blake Griffin]

No way this will happen. I said I wouldn't judge Poch on his introduction on youth players after his first season, and after his second season I'm surprised even Onomah got as many minutes as he did. Now in a CL season I can't see anymore than maybe one more new player getting chances, if that, I just hope one of Winks or Onomah get more chances, but again I'm not optimistic. Best chance is Pritchard IF he stays. KWP won't get a chance. We are buying at least one striker I can't see Harrison getting a sniff as Son or N'jie will play up top. I can't see Edwards getting the field. I don't even see both Winks and Onomah getting chances. Outside of Pritch next best is CCV. Who will get a League Cup match or sub appearance if he's lucky. If we don't buy a DM Ball may get a chance too.

Most likely scenario any of them get chances is in the LC but Bentaleb and Mason will prob play. If we get knocked out of CL group stage and end up in EL who knows after that.

i hope winks, onomah and kwp all go on loan. winks is the easiest to find a club for as i believe you can plug him into any team and he will do well, i don't really understand why poch has rejected loan offers for him so far as i see no indication that we intend to actually play him, even with an injured bentaleb, a suspended dembele and a half fit and terribly out of form mason he still never got anywhere close to playing so i'm not sure what we're doing with him exactly. kwp and onomah have bigger potential than winks imo but neither are as rounded as players so we need to be more careful where we send them and in onomah's case he needs a more particular setup to get the best out of him.

ccv i think will depend on whether we buy another cb in the summer, if we do then i don't think another year of u21s does much for him, he's already had close to two full seasons at that level. i wonder whether celtic or rangers could be a good loan for him. harrison i'm not sure what the best option for him is, I'd probably keep him at the club for another season and hopefully he can pick up a few first team minutes here and there. as for edwards he has to be given some kind of assurances from poch that he's in his fairly immediate plans or he could well leave, which would be a disaster. maybe i'm being overly optimistic but i reckon he'll make his breakthrough next season. pritchard should be in the first team squad. ward i just don't see where he could possibly fit in so another year on loan for him or we might just cash in, ball has a slightly better chance as a dier back up but again it's unlikely at the moment.