Spurs under 21, under 18 Leagues and other youth news

[Spursidol]

I am not sure at all that AVB coming in has had a negative impact on the youth players.

The fact is that AVB came in as did several players, with three top players departing, for whatever reason - that is the very definition of a transition period. On top of that we had a lengthy injury list - and of 1st team players. This should be seen in the context of AVB's Chelsea debacle - he was very aware, as has been made abundantly clear in his latest interview, that results couldn't be ignored on the basis that he was working on a long-term project. When seen in this light, is it really any surprise that he didn't just shove in a bunch of youth players that he knew nothing about?

I don't believe this effects the long term at all: DL has placed a tremendous amount of emphasis on the youth set-up and a major increase in the value and quantity of the youth product - in terms of time, effort and, most importantly (from DL's perspective ), money, into this. I really can't see him not having discussed it at length with AVB. And I really don't believe AVB has zero interest in promoting from the youth just because he was patently aware of the immediacy of results. I will ask again, exactly how much would he have known of these youth players at the start of the season? His first task, surely, would have been to get to know his 1st team squad. And with so many 1st team players out injured, surely, he would have needed to have maximised every little of experience and ability from those that remained - not push a bunch of inexperienced kids, that he hardly knew, to the fore. Even in cup games, if he is trying to inculcate a winning mentality into the club, surely the last thing he (or anyone else, for that matter) would have wanted to do was chuck some kids in, at very serious risk of elimination, maintain the mythos of inconsistency and exciting nearly men, or run the serious risk of harming the kids' development (any one, or all). It is one of the things 'Arry did very well - with the whole BS of the curse of Gareth Bale hanging around, he waited until we had a game sewn up, and beyond throwing away, before giving the lad his run-out - rather than chucking him into a United at OT maelstrom for his first appearance under a new manager, which could have been a disaster.

All we know, at the moment, is that there is a possible issue with the Pritch (who many of us see as one of our hottest prospects). But that could have arisen anyway. We have no knowledge that Aitch would have fast tracked him. Fast tracking him may be a disaster, in any case. Maybe they are seeing things in training that disagree with his opinion of his development ATM - he would hardly be the first young player to believe he was ready when he wasn't. Maybe his head has been turned - maybe it was turned by all the talk of Real and Barca.

I am as excited as anyone by the changes in our youth set-up, and by the young players we have coming through (who I see as the first fruits of those changes, and, hopefully, not a one-off). And I am as much aware of the Pritch's ability at the level he is playing at at the moment. But I do think there is a lot of second guessing going on here, and a fair bit of trying to read the situation without putting it in its proper context.

Carry on, regardless

Very diificult to disagree with anything in this post.

However its also true that if we do not play the youth (and here we are talkimng of 19/20/21 year olds) many of whom have 30+ professional games under their belt (Townsend has about 100) in some first team ganmes then they will not break into the first team - and that means those players will eventually leave as they are seen to have no future at Spurs.

If that happens, although Spurs can say, justifiuablly, that they have a great youth set up, the fact that they have not sorted out how to get players from the youth set up into the first team means that Spurs will not be reaching much benefiit - at best selling the players for £500k, £ 1m or relatively low sums to other clubs. And that would certainly be a shame.

In this thread previously I have suggested that Spurs do what they advocated when they supported the increase in the numbver of substitutes from 5 to 7 and use those extra places (or at least one) for youth players in most matches. That way there are 16 or 17 first team players in the squad for AVB to use and one or two younger ones who AVB can use as he pleases - for example if Spurs are comfortably ahead in some matches. So far this season, its often been the case (partly becaiuse Jenas, Gomes and Bentley are in the 25 man squad but unused) that with injuries AVB has had to put almost all the fit first team players into the match day squad of 18 - and thereby having to play first team players out of position when brought from the bench as there have not been suitable choices.

Shoehorning the likes of Sigurdsson into a winger position because of injuries, rather than having Falque or Townsend has not been a particularly great alternative.

If AVB has felt very constrained by his Chelsea past, hopefully being in the top 4 after Christmas (and thereby confounding any critics he may have) will allow him to be sllightly mlore flexible in his views and involve more of the miriad of 19/20/21 year olds.

If he doesn't at least ensure that there are a lot of good quality loan deals in place to develop the youngsters (and hopefully learning from the poor loan choices of Luongo and Fredericks in the first half of the season).

 

[StartingPrice]

Broadly agree with your point, although I do think there have been a few instances of where our youth players may have been utilised more, for instance Huddlestone over Carroll in any instance particularly the Cov game, and also would have liked to have seen a bit more Falque, but as you say AVB has the mitigation that he needed results to get the fans/media on board first.

I think the main thing is that we have installed a defined philosophy and playing style throughout our youth set up now that means we are no longer just waiting for a Ledley King to shine through, but instead creating an environment which develops youth players with our philosophy, that our coaches are well educated into that philosophy and hopefully we will bear the fruits of that long into the future. If you install that into your club then losing Inglethorpe and possibly Pritch (however disappointing) is no catastrophe because there will be another load coming along very shortly.

Anyway, massive thanks to SpursIdol for his continued good work on this thread and keeping up in the loop with the youth teams - top work.

Likewise, there's not much I would disagree with here.

RE THudd/Carroll, however: Anyone who shares an interest in the youth set-up (no, Obscene, put it away, put it away ), and reads these forums, may recall that I have been going on about Tommy Carroll for the last couple of years. I want to see him on the pitch, I want to see him getting the chance to develop. I'm not disagreeing. I am just trying to see it from AVB's point of and, as said above, maybe he just feels ATM, especially with the injury list we had and the loss of 3 top players/the arrival of 5 new players, that he wanted to maximise the experience he had leeft in the squad, and that includes THudd, whatever continuity there was left, and, maybe, just feels that this is what he needed at that precise point in time to help inculcate an attitude change to one where we believe we have a serious chance in every competition and will not let any of them slip easily.

 

[StartingPrice]

@<The Apprentice> - On the contrary, I will be pretty surprised if no-one from the youth set-up breaks through over the next five years (and that is ignoring the many players who arrived at the club young and joined the youth set-up at 15 - 16 up, who have already broken into the 1st team squad).
More to the point, i would imagine Mr Levy, who has invested so much time, effort and money into making the youth set-up a massively productive wing of our football club, will be fecking livid, and will not accept it as remotely satisfactory.

@ <SpursIdol> As per my response to Shelfy, there's not much in your post I actually disagree with, I'm just trying to imagine how AVB would be looking at it, and I think the loss of 3 top players and the arrival of five new ones, together with a substantial injury list of first team players, coupled with his awareness of the effect that the immediacy of poor results had on his project at Chelsea, made him keen to maximise whatever experience and continuity he had left in the squad.

So the one thing I am not sure about in your post is the assertion that we haven't worked out how to get players from the youth set-up into the 1st team squad. The way I see it, the very job titles/descriptors given to the likes to Tim Sherwood would suggest we have thought long and hard about it. As I said above, lack of opportunity due to specific circumstances is not the same as lack of know-how.

I do agree, however, that we should be using the extended bench to include a few of the lads on the substitute list.

@ <Bofrok> - That was like a vision of back in the day - they had no qualms about making us play on a pitch considerably worse than that. Modern footballers are pampered way too much

 

[Bofrok]

Yes I remember those days StartingPrice as I'm 65. BTW I deleted the video as I think I might be risking a visit from A&C due to copyright infringement.

 

[Spursidol]

@<The Apprentice> - On the contrary, I will be pretty surprised if no-one from the youth set-up breaks through over the next five years (and that is ignoring the many players who arrived at the club young and joined the youth set-up at 15 - 16 up, who have already broken into the 1st team squad).
More to the point, i would imagine Mr Levy, who has invested so much time, effort and money into making the youth set-up a massively productive wing of our football club, will be fecking livid, and will not accept it as remotely satisfactory.

@ <SpursIdol> As per my response to Shelfy, there's not much in your post I actually disagree with, I'm just trying to imagine how AVB would be looking at it, and I think the loss of 3 top players and the arrival of five new ones, together with a substantial injury list of first team players, coupled with his awareness of the effect that the immediacy of poor results had on his project at Chelsea, made him keen to maximise whatever experience and continuity he had left in the squad.

So the one thing I am not sure about in your post is the assertion that we haven't worked out how to get players from the youth set-up into the 1st team squad. The way I see it, the very job titles/descriptors given to the likes to Tim Sherwood would suggest we have thought long and hard about it. As I said above, lack of opportunity due to specific circumstances is not the same as lack of know-how.

I do agree, however, that we should be using the extended bench to include a few of the lads on the substitute list.

@ <Bofrok> - That was like a vision of back in the day - they had no qualms about making us play on a pitch considerably worse than that. Modern footballers are pampered way too much

SP - It seems to be agreed amongst most in the football world that there is a gap between 'youth' football and first team football.

The (new last season) NextGen u 19 league helps to bridge that gap by providing more meaningful matches, the experience of travelling abroad etc, as does the (new this seasson) u 21 league. However the gap, although narrower certainly still exists - the players are rarely playing in front of big crowds, they are not playing against much older more experienced players (except maybe ome or two of the over age players) etc.

Consequently the two ways in which a player can bridge that gap is :

i) To go out on loan (s), which gives players of experience of playing against older players, playing in front of crowds, playing with others who need to get results becuase they need to pay the mortgage and all the other things which make up the difference between first team football and youth football and/or
(ii) playing directlly for the first team (proibably after going on a loan or two, and at least initially off the bench).

So if we look at Andros Townsend and Iagio Falque - Windy I think cited stats recently that Townsend and Falque had been on the bench 15 times and 9 times respectively - but only made 6 appearances between them. I'd need time to check in detail, but the stats cannot be that far wrong.

How many appearances for Carroll, Mason, Parrett....just a handful,

So for all those players, have they learnt that much - should more of them have been on loan to enhance their experience and share the very few first team appearances amongst say 2 or 3 young players so that at least those couple learn something ?

But if we look at the quality of loans made - Rose has obviously done well, but Luongo despite playing well (according to Ipswich fan sites) was dropped pretty quickly because the Ipswich squad was very young and they needed to bring in more experienced players. Equallly Fredericks loan was curtailed because Brentford (to whom he was loaned) were playing a narrow diamoind midfield and did not require a winger. Last seaon's good example was Mason and Kane both going to Millwall - direectly the loans were announced many commentators (including myself) questiioned whether both could play together asa Kane (as a second striker) and Masion (as a No 10) occupy very similar positions - as we know Mason hardly played IMO in each case whoever was arranging the loans at Spurs failed to ask the basic qiuestion of whether the player would get enough games to learn from the loan before the loan started.

The result, it pains me to say it, have been a little hit or miss.

In addition, wre you to look at the quality of the u 21 team who beat Wolves 5-1 on Monday or the quality of Spurs X! side who beat Peterborough 8-1 on Tiuesday, I would suggrest that there are other players who would have benefitted from going out on loan - but loans have not been arranged.

That means we have a group of players who need to gain the experience they need to play at a high level :

a) Are not being played in the Spurs first team much, if at all. and
b) Are often not getting good loans - or not being loaned out at all.

That means that for too many of our development players the route to being considered for Spurs first team is being blocked - AVB understandably is being cautious, and Sherwood or whoever is resonsible at Spurs for loans is not placing as many players as we need on good lloans where the player comes back more experienced and able to play at a higher level.

If AVB planned to be cautious in his use of Spurs developing players (for the reasons you give), he needed to have got Sherwood in overdrive to get loans arranged. Since that seems not to have happened, it follows that Spurs seem to not understand how to ensure that the developing players get to be first team players if they are good enough.

 

[StartingPrice]

@ Bofrok - Wow, do peoples really live to be that old? You must know Alex Beetroot Head Ferguson!

@ SpursIdol:

SI, buddy, I know everything you have said here, and haven't disagreed with must of it.
I am happy to defer on your knowledge of individual players, usually, but I think you are kinda missing the point I am making here. I'm not inviting a big, elaborate argument about the route from Development Squad (and the <FACT> of creating a Development Squad should speak volumes about the direction the club is moving). I am making a simple point: Some folk imagine there is some kind of perfection in youth set-up and development that isn't being attained, and the failure to attain this impossible goal is some kind of proof of gross ineptitude on the part of the club. I just do not buy that. Could the club do better? Yeah, of course they could. I am sure you could do better in every aspect of your life, as could I (well, actually, I couldn't as I'm fecking PERFECT! ). Should the club do better? Yeah, probably. Do I hope the club will do better? yeah, of course I do...and, as I keep on emphasising, you can better your bottom dollar that Daniel Levy does, too! Do I expect the club to do better (and does Daniel Levy)? See former answer.

Do I believe we can analyse AVB's record in this respect, ignoring all the extraneous factors that he has had to cope with? Get outta here! Do I believe that every single loan arranged has to go absolutely fandabby swimmingly perfectly? Get outta here! Do I believe some loans not going perfectly is proof positive of gross uselessness on the part of the club? Get outta here!

I am stating the case forcefully, and I know you personally may have never taken your critique to this Nth degree (I do read other posts and other threads, and wasn't making the point specifically to you, y'know ). I have made a point of stataing that I know it hasn't been perfect, and I would personally have preferred to have seen a few things go differently (see THudd/Tommy Carroll, for instance). But I am at least able to envisage circumstances that mitigate against major disappointment. As said, above, AVB was coming into a new club, acutely aware that results must not slip too badly while he implemented his project, with three major players leaving, five newbies arriving, and an extensive injury list - to which we should also add to the list the departure of Inglethorpe. It is very easy for us keyboard warriors to say he should have played Carroll instead of THudd, or he should find a place for the Pritch on his bench - but we ain't suffering the consequences of possible failure, and we don't see in depth performance in training, etc.

It also seems to me that folk are focussing on AVB on this when a lot of the responsibility (and I mean that in the neutral sense) is in Tim Sherwood's hands. He was conspicuously promoted when, by-and-large, the Redknapp regime was dismissed, and I am absolutely 100% sure that if Dan Levy (who will be watching these developments with a keener eye than ours) suspects that his money is being wasted, and a major part of his strategic vision for the club undermined, he will wield the Sherwood's head removing axe quick sharpish.

You and eye show a keen interest on this, but a lot of folk are making a hell of a lot out of a little information IMHO. It is true, for instance, that the Lluongo loan, that was going very well (suggestive that at the time of arranging the loan, it was a good move and therefore those responsible actually did their job well and not otherwise) - but wasn't that something to do with a change of management at Ipswich? And, if so, how on earth could those responsible at our end have known that when they loan was arranged?

I also think there is way too much being made of Pritch-Gate. We know virtually nothing ATM, other than some contradictory ITK. He may well leave, but he may have made his mind up a long time ago, and it may be little to do with being included in the 1st team squad. And even if it is, our management and coaching staff see the kid in training, we don't. Would they really be the first such to not believe a player is ready for a step up, which upsets the player who disagrees? And would that necessarily make them wrong?

Like I said, I just think a lot of folk are making way too much out of a very little information and failing to contextualise it. Me, I will wait until this time next year before making a decision one way or the other on how the AVB regime is handling the youth set-up, and integrating youth players in the full squad (if any said youth players are good enough). After all, he seems to be doing reasonably well on the whole.

Just a personal opinion, bro...like I said, on the whole I'm more than happy to defer to your knowledge of youthful happenings

 

[Spursidol]

Tottenham technical co-ordinator Tim Sherwood says the Premier League club are yet to make a decision on the future of Millwall loanee Adam Smith.

Source: News at den


Smith, who has made 16 appearances for the Lions since arriving at The Den in September, is due to return to his parent club at the end of January.

Boss Kenny Jackett is in discussions with Spurs about keeping the England U21 star until the end of the season, but is understood to face competition from several Premier League clubs.

But Sherwood told NewsAtDen: "We haven't decided what we're going to do with Adam yet. He has been doing well so we are happy with the progress he has made.

"We have not discussed what is going to happen in the long term, but we still see him as part of our plans. He either stays at Millwall, goes somewhere else on loan or he comes back to Spurs.

"Those are the three options. But we're happy with the way Kenny has dealt with him and the way he has been treated at Millwall - our young players always benefit from playing games.

"It has been a good loan for him. Ultimately, we want him to be a Premier League footballer so we'll do what is best to put him in that position."

Would be good if he spent the second half of the season playing on loan at a Premiership club. Think he would do well.
​

 

[Spursidol]

Spurs u 13's are playing in the Riga Cup in Latvia - first match was won 7-0 and second match 4-0.

Spurs u 16's played there last year and finished runners up to Dynamo Kiev - Spurs u 16's retiurn there for their agre group competition towards the end of February.

its all part of Spurs Academy teachiong process to get tyyhe lads used to going away to play football, playing against opposition playing a different style of football etc

 

[kazzah9]

Spurs u 13's are playing in the Riga Cup in Latvia - first match was won 7-0 and second match 4-0.

Spurs u 16's played there last year and finished runners up to Dynamo Kiev - Spurs u 16's retiurn there for their agre group competition towards the end of February.

its all part of Spurs Academy teachiong process to get tyyhe lads used to going away to play football, playing against opposition playing a different style of football etc

They have some vids on their youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/rigacup

 

[Pringle]

Spurs u 13's are playing in the Riga Cup in Latvia - first match was won 7-0 and second match 4-0.

Spurs u 16's played there last year and finished runners up to Dynamo Kiev - Spurs u 16's retiurn there for their agre group competition towards the end of February.

its all part of Spurs Academy teachiong process to get tyyhe lads used to going away to play football, playing against opposition playing a different style of football etc

A lad I teach PE at school is is the team. Left earlier in the week for it - lucky sod has played against Barca and Sporting Lisbon in previous years!

 

[RickyVilla]

Tottenham technical co-ordinator Tim Sherwood says the Premier League club are yet to make a decision on the future of Millwall loanee Adam Smith.​

​

Source: News at den​

​

​

Smith, who has made 16 appearances for the Lions since arriving at The Den in September, is due to return to his parent club at the end of January.​

​

Boss Kenny Jackett is in discussions with Spurs about keeping the England U21 star until the end of the season, but is understood to face competition from several Premier League clubs.​

​

But Sherwood told NewsAtDen:"We haven't decided what we're going to do with Adam yet. He has been doing well so we are happy with the progress he has made.​

​

"We have not discussed what is going to happen in the long term, but we still see him as part of our plans. He either stays at Millwall, goes somewhere else on loan or he comes back to Spurs.​

​

"Those are the three options. But we're happy with the way Kenny has dealt with him and the way he has been treated at Millwall - our young players always benefit from playing games.​

​

"It has been a good loan for him. Ultimately, we want him to be a Premier League footballer so we'll do what is best to put him in that position."​

​

Would be good if he spent the second half of the season playing on loan at a Premiership club. Think he would do well. ​

​

My Millwall supporting mate is desperate to keep Smiffy. Says he is quality going forward but needs to sharpen up on his defensive skills. A bit like Walker.

 

[Spursidol]

My Millwall supporting mate is desperate to keep Smiffy. Says he is quality going forward but needs to sharpen up on his defensive skills. A bit like Walker.

Smith's style of play is very much like Walker's. Smith is a very good attacking fullback with good crossing abilities and a decent shot (2 of his goals were included in MK Dons goal of the season competition when he was on loan there). He's not a bad defendre, but certainly that is the weaker part of his game.

 

[mill]

Spurs u 13's are playing in the Riga Cup in Latvia - first match was won 7-0 and second match 4-0.

Spurs u 16's played there last year and finished runners up to Dynamo Kiev - Spurs u 16's retiurn there for their agre group competition towards the end of February.

its all part of Spurs Academy teachiong process to get tyyhe lads used to going away to play football, playing against opposition playing a different style of football etc

You started on the drink early? lol. Just messing good work again Spursidol

 

[Spursidol]

You really need to stand out these days to make a strong case for a first team chance. It's a tough, tough transition into a Top 4 chasing team.

From games I've watched over the last couple of years, the two players in youth games who have seemed head and shoulders above everyone else were Wilshere and Sterling. It's not enough to just look good at youth level. Not for our level.

I would be surprised if more than one of our current youth players is a regular starter for us over the next 5 years. Happily surprised of course! I would love it to happen.

Spurs have been awarded the Category 1 status for its Academy which requires it to spend a minimum of £2.5m pa on its operations (wages and the like) and employ at least 18 staff. Spurs have over 200 players in its academy and there are almost 40 staff listed on Spurs Academy page http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/spurs/Academy/about-the-academy.page? which suggests to me that Spurs are spending £3m + on the academy. After the academy there are over 2 dozen players classed as professionals (Carroll, Towndsend, Falqyue, Coulibaly, Pritchard to name a few) plus their coaches etc - assuming that each player is on £40k pa then the wage bill for the professionals and coaches will be £1m + pa

So it total probably £4m + pa spent by Spurs on the youth set up.

Levy is a business man and will be expecting a return from that annual spend. Although ManU were trying to sell Fryers for £6m, I expect most would have been surprised at a fee of more than £2m to £3m.

On that basis Levy's business plan for the youth set up is probably to get one or two players moving froim the youth sert up to the first team squad every year, with those not making it being sold on foir fees probably varying from £100k to £1m for the better ones and others just being released. Most of course will be 'squad' players with a few becoming stars - Caulker might be the best candidate currently to become the regular starter in due course.

That does not mean that every player joining the first team stays fior their career, some mau join but move on after a couple of years because there are better youngsters coming up from the academy. Levy's model is Barca where earlier this year they put out a team composed 100% of players brought tyhrough their academy with one or two being bought and polished (like we did with Walker).

There are plenty of good candidates coming through the system - the only question is whether Spurs can get them the experience to move into the first team as the bar has become ever higher. As an example, Adam Smith has had a very good half season loan at Millwall (as did Townsend a couple of seassons ago) but unless he gets a Premiership loan he may struggle to get the experience he needs sittiing on a Spurs bench. But if the players do not come through intoi the first team , expect Levy to be asking questions

 

[Spursidol]

Spurs u 13's are playing in the Riga Cup in Latvia - first match was won 7-0 and second match 4-0.

Spurs u 16's played there last year and finished runners up to Dynamo Kiev - Spurs u 16's retiurn there for their agre group competition towards the end of February.

its all part of Spurs Academy teachiong process to get tyyhe lads used to going away to play football, playing against opposition playing a different style of football etc

Spurs u 13's won their third and final group match 5-0 to top the group with a maximum 9 points and an aggregate 16-0 scoreline. In the semi finals they had a tougher time against Italians Atlanta, going through 8-7 on penalties to reach the final against a Russian team tomorrow.

Riga Cup ‏@Riga_Cup
ATALANTA – TOTTENHAM H 2:2 (penaltys 7:8)

 

[littlemandefoe]

I'm surprised Andros doesn't get a little bit more playing time! He looks decent so far.

 

[kazzah9]

My word, we won a pen shootout??!

 

[Spursidol]

My word, we won a pen shootout??!

Yup, apparantly we are now taking it seriously and practising taking penalties at an early age - penalty shoot out vid against Atlanta

 

[littlemandefoe]

they're all chocolate

 

[RickyVilla]

they're all chocolate

What?