Spurs v Bolton FA Cup Match Thread

[lillywhites61]

the whole famous people/soldiers thing i just find so annoying. is it a surprise that someone in the public eye receives more attention than john the soldier? i bet the same people that make this ridiculous comparison don't raise attention to and mourn every soldier's death yet here they are popping up with this lame point. and as already pointed out, soldiers know what they're signing up to, it's still sad nonetheless but a footballer collapsing mid game is a little bit more unexpected.

I find it quite amazing that people have to talk about it at all. What happened yesterday was a very surreal thing, I and everyone else at the ground felt totally helpless in what they were witnessing. Why would this have and relevance to how we look at our brave soldiers? Two totally seperate things, I have also had mates go through terrible situations in war. At the end of the day yesterday was shocking and brought back some terrible memories and made me reflect a lot, I hope I never have to witness something like that again.

 

[LeSoupeKitchen]

Some of these comments.....

Of course if you think about it rationally then we should mourn every death on the planet equally. You tell me I can't get hysterical about a family member's death because there has just been an earthquake in china that jas killed thousands. Football is a family and its human nature to care more about one of your own- especially of you've actually seen it happen!

Are you going to complain when the medical staff are congratulated because tere are thousands of people doing the same thing in hospitals every day and not getting credit?

 

[CosmicHotspur]

Soldiers are killed and badly injured in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, etc. fairly frequently. We can't help but get slightly numbed to these as there are so many that they become statistics. We may feel sorrow for them and their families when it comes up on the news but, unless we knew them, we tend to put it to the back of our minds until the next one is killed and we repeat the process.

Because we are at a distance and don't see it happen, it remains remote whereas yesterday it was actually witnessed as it happened, by those at the Lane (who must have been the most affected by it) and by those of us watching on TV or online, which harshly brought home to us the reality of the situation. Most of us don't usually (if ever and certainly not in such a sudden and shocking way) see someone dying, as he obviously did, so publicly and close up and witnessing it has undoubtedly been traumatic.

We all know death is unavoidable and comes to us all but when it's someone so young, it becomes irrelevnt whether it's a soldier, a footballer or anyone from any walk of life and it's incredibly tragic and sad.

It still remains to be seen whether Fabrice Muamba will actually survive as he wasn't alive for a considerable time and, if he does live, we don't know what quality of life he will have.

Maybe he was sworn and cursed at while playing football and no doubt like the rest of us he isn't a perfect human being (although he certainly seems to be a hard-working, intelligent young man) but he certainly doesn't deserve what has happened to him.

 

[oohaahedgar]

Whilst listening to the Liverpool game on the mac ( banished from the living room ) I thought I would read through this thread in full. I wasn't there yesterday but I did have a house full of beer and friends that trundled off quite quickly after the game was called off, so I was shocked like any sane person would be watching events unfold. I do however agree with some of the posters (shit Downing has scored while I'm typing) that have suggested we all seem to go into a Princess Diana lets all see who can be the most upset mode. I get sick of people going into collective mourning almost like they enjoy it when anything tragic happens. . I wish the poor lad a complete recovery and will probably get up during the night to see if he has any improvement. BUT please can people stop saying how they were crying or how upset they were as if it's a competition. Shit happens all the time and it's terrible for the people directly involved not for anyone else. If it is devastating for you I would suggest you watch the news occasionally as devastation on a larger scale happens daily.
Oh and our fans at the match were a credit to our club, incredible.

 

[Mr Pink]

Whilst listening to the Liverpool game on the mac ( banished from the living room ) I thought I would read through this thread in full. I wasn't there yesterday but I did have a house full of beer and friends that trundled off quite quickly after the game was called off, so I was shocked like any sane person would be watching events unfold. I do however agree with some of the posters (shit Downing has scored while I'm typing) that have suggested we all seem to go into a Princess Diana lets all see who can be the most upset mode. I get sick of people going into collective mourning almost like they enjoy it when anything tragic happens. . I wish the poor lad a complete recovery and will probably get up during the night to see if he has any improvement. BUT please can people stop saying how they were crying or how upset they were as if it's a competition. Shit happens all the time and it's terrible for the people directly involved not for anyone else. If it is devastating for you I would suggest you watch the news occasionally as devastation on a larger scale happens daily.
Oh and our fans at the match were a credit to our club, incredible.

I agree with this completely...particularly the highlighted part of it.

 

[Misfit]

Yes, the cult of mourning does happen in society more often. The chants and t-shirts etc I can only see as a positive. Not because they make me feel any better, I'll carry on regardless, but for his family and friends. I hope that during this really scary period it helps them even a little.

We've all had family and friends die or with serious emergencies and just a pat on the back from an acquaintance in passing can help.

Also brings a very unwelcome reminder of our own mortality.

Hope the news is good when they bring him out of the coma.

 

[AngerManagement]

Yes, the cult of mourning does happen in society more often. The chants and t-shirts etc I can only see as a positive. Not because they make me feel any better, I'll carry on regardless, but for his family and friends. I hope that during this really scary period it helps them even a little.

We've all had family and friends die or with serious emergencies and just a pat on the back from an acquaintance in passing can help.

Also brings a very unwelcome reminder of our own mortality.

Hope the news is good when they bring him out of the coma.

this is quite a factor, but more so the mortality of our loved ones and the realisation you could lose anyone at any time.

Its not only sad to think of the impact it will have on him and his family, friends but its also shocking to see someone so young and seemingly healthy just drop (potentially to their death) for no apparent reason.

 

[L-man]

Soldiers are killed and badly injured in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, etc. fairly frequently. We can't help but get slightly numbed to these as there are so many that they become statistics. We may feel sorrow for them and their families when it comes up on the news but, unless we knew them, we tend to put it to the back of our minds until the next one is killed and we repeat the process.

Because we are at a distance and don't see it happen, it remains remote whereas yesterday it was actually witnessed as it happened, by those at the Lane (who must have been the most affected by it) and by those of us watching on TV or online, which harshly brought home to us the reality of the situation. Most of us don't usually (if ever and certainly not in such a sudden and shocking way) see someone dying, as he obviously did, so publicly and close up and witnessing it has undoubtedly been traumatic.

We all know death is unavoidable and comes to us all but when it's someone so young, it becomes irrelevnt whether it's a soldier, a footballer or anyone from any walk of life and it's incredibly tragic and sad.

It still remains to be seen whether Fabrice Muamba will actually survive as he wasn't alive for a considerable time and, if he does live, we don't know what quality of life he will have.

Maybe he was sworn and cursed at while playing football and no doubt like the rest of us he isn't a perfect human being (although he certainly seems to be a hard-working, intelligent young man) but he certainly doesn't deserve what has happened to him.

This is exactly what I wanted to say but couldn't quite put it into words, or wanting to come across uncompassionate (is that a word?) in regards to the soldiers etc.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

The point I am trying to get across is that I do not want FM to die, nor any other human except by natural causes.

I stated earlier in this thread that I was slagging off FM elsewhere because of a dirty foul he committed against Bale in Dec 2007 that put Bale out for the rest of the 2007/8 season.

I just think that there are a lot of people in this country who go into a collective hand wringing and sobbing group when a celeb, rock star, or someone known to the public dies. I dunno if if started with Princess Di - the Peoples Princess but since then there have been many who go into what I would call false mourning - Not quite as bad as the mourners for the N.Korean guy but more recent deaths like Jade Goody, Amy Whitehouse, Jacko and far too many more to mention but I hope you get my gist. Someone like the copper who was blinded by that slag Moat and committed suicide made hardly a mention. After a few weeks the public then move back into their own world where real lives and deaths should and do mean more.

Sometimes shit happens, I sincerely hope Muamba recovers fully - Because he is a human being like all of us - Not because we know him as a football player.

I apologise if I offended members on here - my opinion might sound cynical, it wasn't meant to. This electronic world which is overtaking my sensibilities seems to make people react differently with their grief for people they don't know. Six hundred people can die in an earthquake in China or Turkey - do we care. Why not ?

No need to apologise, you make some perfectly valid points, just the comparison with soldiers isn't particularly valid for reasons others have stated. Hard to feel an outpouring of grief for people who actively seek employment that they know may involve killing and maiming others etc.

 

[rawhide]

I have no issue with collective mourning, but personally didn't mourn the death of Princess Di, Winehouse or Jacko, to use the examples quoted in this thread. What this does is create a sense of community, togetherness if you like, which is missing from society in a geographic sense.

With the public eye/armed forces debate, I have huge sympathy for the families, it must be horrible. I think there has been some desensitising, as we have been involved in continued conflicts (if you can call them that) for many years and there have been deaths on an all too frequent basis. However, I understand the argument that this risk is part of their job, but we have just transitioned from huge World Wars with massive loss of life, and almost an expectation that soldiers will fight to protect their country, and fight for their lives, to a situation where they fight as peacemakers, for other countries, where loss of life is not expected on that scale.

All this is a moot point though, FM isnt dead.

Come on Fabrice, pull through!

By the way, I'm so proud of the way the fans at WHL reacted yesterday.

 

[Star_of_Davids]

Bolton ITK is saying that the players understandably don't want to go back to WHL. So maybe it'll be a neutral ground, or maybe we'll get a bye. I hope we don't, would feel sick to the stomach if we got through because of this.

I'm pretty certain they will come back to WHL (They're going to have to next season anyway - unless of course they get relegated) and will say that they're playing the game for Muamba. If however they don't want to come back to WHL then they'll have to concede the tie, no way we shoud have to give up home advantage for something that's no fault of ours

 

[fortworthspur]

to get right down to it, its not grief for Muamba, its grief for ourselves. grief because this wonderful thing (football) that gives us so much joy went horribly wrong yesterday while we all watched live on TV or in person. its selfish, which of course grief always is.

 

[JollyHappy]

Agree with all that is said about overhyping tragedies that happen in the public eye. Of course it was terrible for FM and his family and all so public. Imagine how his mum must have felt watching it on TV.

I was at the game by the way and still feel shocked myself at what I saw but then I'd feel the same if I saw someone in the same circumstances collapse in the street in front of me and then saw all the follow up efforts to save that person

However my main point, having suffered close family loss as I'm sure many of us have, is that it is very very difficult to go back to the place where it happened. The Bolton team will have viewed FM on a brother type relation as I think all sporting teams do - team spirit and all that and it's going to be very difficult for them to come back to WHL to play the game if the worst happens with FM.

Having said that, no way should Spurs give up home advantage for the tie. Yes - agree to an extended break and maybe play it on the date of the semi finals when we were meant to be playing Bolton away anyway.

On the other hand the Spurs supporter in myself then comes through and if we do beat Bolton and if Chelscum get through to the Champions League semi final, then we'd be playing them 4or 5 days before they have to play Barcelona and I view that as a good thing.

I think, harsh as it is, Bolton will have to choose whether or not to play on Wednesday week at the Lane and my guess at the moment is if the worst happens with FM then they will forfeit the tie.

 

[hybridsoldier]

WTF has happened to this thread? Total tangent.

It's a very sad, awkward, strange situation really. Everyone's hope and prayers are with Muamba and his family and pray to God he pulls through. Have to commend the medical teams for their quick reaction and its thanks to them and the quick actions of everyone at WHL and emergency services that he even has a shot still.

From a footballing standpoint your faced with a very strange rescheduled game. On one hand will Bolton want to play? If they do they will want to win for their friend and colleague. As for Spurs, will we want to play? How will our players mentally want to win that game knowing the whole country will see them as the bad guys. It's so tough, so so tough. A forfeit seems so wrong on both sides, but then again a rescheduled game is going to be tough for everyone too.

At the moment the only thought is for Muamba to survive.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

There are tragedies constantly. 22 children died just a few days ago. Soldiers are constantly dying. Policemen too. Women die giving birth. I was gutted a couple of weeks ago when I ran over a squirrel or hedgehog or something. Fact is, none of that in anyway lessens how horrible this was. Millions watching in tv, and myself and another 36,000 in the ground, saw a young 23 year old man have a heart attack. A fit man who lives a healthy lifestyle, with an amazing future ahead of him because of the amount he has earned and will earn. Furthermore, a man we have some form of affinity with, nore than we do with any of the 22 Belgian kids, because he's a man whose name we already knew, a man who those of us who were within a 100 metres of him of yesterday will have been that close to us 6 or 7 times already in the past half decade since he became a regularly appearing footballer. I myself shouted a fair deal of abuse at him when, playing of Birmingham in 06/07, he broke Gareth Bales foot.

I haven't read this thread (I've avoided this site for the past 24 hours because I was in complete shock about it and still am if I'm honest) but anybody who is downplaying how sad is appropriate to feel about this because of 'well relative to other disasters in the world' must really not be capable of empathy.

 

[YiddoJames]

As others have said it's not really comparable to soldiers dying abroad. Awful though that is in itself, it's expected, that is the nature of war.

But you don't expect a fully fit 23 year-old man to drop to the floor and nearly die during a game of football. It was something which most of us have never seen happen in these circumstances. It's unusualness and immediacy - ie on TV as we watched or even worse for those in the ground actually there - make it so shocking.

Can only hope there's a good ending to this story and keep fingers crossed.

 

[Mr Pink]

There are tragedies constantly. 22 children died just a few days ago. Soldiers are constantly dying. Policemen too. Women die giving birth. I was gutted a couple of weeks ago when I ran over a squirrel or hedgehog or something. Fact is, none of that in anyway lessens how horrible this was. Millions watching in tv, and myself and another 36,000 in the ground, saw a young 23 year old man have a heart attack. A fit man who lives a healthy lifestyle, with an amazing future ahead of him because of the amount he has earned and will earn. Furthermore, a man we have some form of affinity with, nore than we do with any of the 22 Belgian kids, because he's a man whose name we already knew, a man who those of us who were within a 100 metres of him of yesterday will have been that close to us 6 or 7 times already in the past half decade since he became a regularly appearing footballer. I myself shouted a fair deal of abuse at him when, playing of Birmingham in 06/07, he broke Gareth Bales foot.

I haven't read this thread (I've avoided this site for the past 24 hours because I was in complete shock about it and still am if I'm honest) but anybody who is downplaying how sad is appropriate to feel about this because of 'well relative to other disasters in the world' must really not be capable of empathy.

I don't think anybody is down playing it really.

The point I think which is relevant is that, the people who are closest to him, obviously his immediate family, are the ones who really will be suffering extraordinary worry and stress in a time like this.

We all feel for him and want him to pull through but its not even in the same stratosphere as to the emotions they'll be feeling - it couldn't possibly be.

 

[Shanks]

It's not playing it down at all, it's just for some people, they have different levels of compassion.
For some soldiers dieing away from home is emotion, for others, its a young mum who has cancer.

But this particular case, is you don't expect a fit, healthy young man to suddenly drop down with a heart attack live on TV in the middle of a football match.

It's shocking, and sad and for those millions watching it was shocking to see.

For me personally, I had my 5 yr old and 3 yr old watching with me, and whilst the 3yr old didn't really bat an eye lid, my 5yr old was more aware. Asking lots of questions about it, looking worried.

Just a sad thing to witness. And by all accounts one of the more decent blokes to play football, rather than an absolute ****.

 

[TheChosenOne]

The Daily Mail columnist isn't everybody's cup of tea and neither is the Daily Mail but this article isn't too dissimilar to a post of mine.


Pray 4 Muamba, but less of the fake tears
By RICHARD LITTLEJOHN

All eyes were on Gareth Bale, galloping down the left wing. It wasn’t until the ball went out of play that we spotted Luka Modric signalling frantically to the bench and a Bolton player prostrate on the turf.

What happened? Was there a clash of heads? No one around me in the West Stand at White Hart Lane was sure. We’d all been concentrating on the action.

Pretty soon it became obvious that there was something seriously wrong. We are used to cynical footballers feigning injury by rolling around theatrically, clutching their heads. But the figure on the ground wasn’t moving.

As the medical teams rushed on to the pitch, the anguished reaction of the other players told us that the man down wasn’t faking it. The deployment of a defibrilator confirmed this was a life-threatening incident.

Around the stadium, 35,000 supporters fell into an eerie silence, still unsure of what had occurred. Most of us weren’t even certain who was receiving treatment. It was only when the Bolton fans started to chant ‘Fabrice Muamba’ that we were able to put a name to him.

People were visibly distressed. A man sitting a few rows in front of me got to his feet and implored, from the best of motives: ‘Just get him to hospital.’ My friend Vertonghen was not the only one on the verge of tears.
Yet from behind came a voice we recognised only too well. It belonged to the Upper West Stand’s resident gobby imbecile, the bane of our lives, a man whose love of the sound of his own voice is exceeded only by his unparalleled ignorance.

In this oaf’s expert opinion, Bale, coveted by every major team in Europe, is ‘pathetic’. Modric, conservatively valued at £40 million, is an ‘absolute disgrace’. And Harry Redknapp, who has taken Tottenham from the foot of the table to the Champions League, doesn’t know what he is doing.
I’ve no idea who he is, but he looks and sounds like Harry Enfield’s tiresome, know-it-all creation, Mr You Don’t Want To Do It Like That.

On Saturday evening, he surpassed even his own subterranean standard of stupidity. As the stadium held its breath while Muamba was being given emergency CPR, he announced loudly: ‘If he’s brown bread, they’ll call the game off.’

A young man was fighting for his life in front of our eyes and all this moron could care about was whether a game of football would continue.

It’s a remark that should lead to him being banned from White Hart Lane for life. Crass doesn’t even begin to do it justice. I’m astonished someone didn’t deck him.

We left the ground immediately, all appetite for football extinguished, hoping for the best, but fearing the worst.

Most of us knew little about Fabrice Muamba until now. He is, by all accounts, an admirable young man who has fashioned a promising career from a life founded in adversity. We wish fervently that he makes a full recovery.

This tragic incident has brought out the best in people, from the instinctive humanity of a hostile home crowd to the heroic intervention of the cardiologist who climbed from his seat in the stand and helped keep Muamba alive.

But while it is understandable that others want to offer their support and good wishes to Muamba’s family and friends, it has also triggered another maudlin display of vicarious grief from the ‘football family’.

As I have observed before, professional football has a sentimental streak the width of Wembley Stadium. On Sunday, Manchester United and Wolves staged a pre-match display of synchronised applause for Muamba, despite the fact he isn’t dead.

Real Madrid wore ‘get well soon’ messages on their shirts, even though I doubt few of the players have ever heard of Muamba. The English disease has gone global.
At Stamford Bridge, the Chelsea defender, Gary Cahill, a former Bolton team-mate, ‘dedicated’ his goal to Muamba and unveiled a T-shirt bearing the slogan ‘Pray 4 Muamba’ for the benefit of the TV cameras.

He couldn’t even be bothered to spell out the word ‘for’.
There is a fine line between a tasteful show of solidarity and exhibitionism. And in this case, football yet again trampled across it.

Of course, football doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It reflects the values of our modern society, particularly when it comes to wallowing in the kind of self-indulgent weeping and wailing that first manifested itself over the death of Lady Di and reached its gruesome nadir with the demise of Michael Jackson.

For instance, the death of Wales manager Gary Speed, who hanged himself, was a tragedy for his family and friends. But the aftermath was a carefully choreographed travelling circus of remembrance, which made its way around the grounds of every club he’d ever played for. It went on for weeks.
We live in an increasingly godless society, where Christians are marginalised, sacked and even prosecuted for upholding their beliefs, yet we are urged to ‘Pray 4 Muamba’.

With a dwindling number of people attending church, millions have taken to worshipping footballers and celebrities instead.

In the words of G. K. Chesterton: ‘When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything.’


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...y-4-Bolton-star-fake-tears.html#ixzz1pfl0MB3L

 

[talkshowhost86]

What exactly is Littlejohn's point? That if more of us believed in God we'd be less sympathetic towards a footballer in cardiac arrest?

And for a Daily Mail journalist to criticise the Lady Di 'sobathon' is simply laughable as it was his paper that led the charge on that one.

Also this is one of the most irrelevant things I've ever seen a journalist say...

We live in an increasingly godless society, where Christians are marginalised, sacked and even prosecuted for upholding their beliefs, yet we are urged to ‘Pray 4 Muamba’.

What does our 'increasingly godless society' have to do with an ex team-mate wanting to show support for his critically ill friend?

The most upsetting thing from that article though is to learn that Littlejohn is a Spurs fan. Urgh.