The anti-Stratford protests begin!

[jimmyn16]

AEG expressed interest in the OS in May 2010, well before its tie-up with Spurs.

http://tinyurl.com/6bh2zvb

 

[EastLondonYid]

Well at least that's a more sensible

argument than 'Arsenal will be nasty to us'.

Alot of that though is complete conjecture and can't be backed up with any sort of evidence. Even if Levy is planning to sell as soon as we move stadium that would be the case wherever the stadium ends up surely? Also if Levy believes that the OS is a better selling point for prospective buyers that's also good for the club. The more potential buyers there are the more likely we will be to get the right person in for the club.

There seems to be a feeling on here that any business dealing to do with football is bad and I think that is what is naive. Yes ENIC's first interest is in getting the best deal for themselves, but that doesn't mean it would be bad for Spurs.

Firstly, that is not the main or only reason i don't want to move...FFS.

Secondly , the way you word it is patronising, to say its a 'more sensible ' argument, is a matter of your opinion, it doesn't make it sensible or not, one of the main things fans do is banter and bragging, how on earth can you say its not sensible to not want rival fans taking the piss when you see them at work every day.Part of being a fan is the contact with your rivals.

Read my posts on why i object to us moving, there are more important issues i have raised... don't just pick out what suits you to make me look like a mug, ... thanks ...

 

[dimiSpur]

Look there's fans that will disagree with other fans, due to the fact that there's people that aren't emotionally attached to the area. This is because either they are from other parts of London/outside London/overseas or just because they hate the area and want to avoid going there.

Personally, I've grown up far from the ground. But hearing stories from my dad and grandad about glory nights at WHL where they would go and see the mighty Spurs conquering Europe, you can't help but feel attached to the place. Also, going to the current WHL, there's no ground like it. It doesn't look that great on the outside, but once inside, it's awesome. No ground has our atmosphere. No fans are like ours. So to move away from 110 odd years of tradition and move to a new area code is always bound to get people in an uproar.

As we are, we are in tune with Uefa's Fair Play financial laws. So the argument that we must move because of it is rubbish. The reason we must move is because Arsenal are set to become an economic powerhouse within the next 10-15 years, and we do not want to be found lagging behind with a 65k wage cap forever. We also have a high demand for tickets so it would be stupid to not capitalise on that.

However where is the line on where a Club goes to maximize profits? What if it were cheaper to relocate to Southampton? Real Madrid challenging Spurs at Southampton or top 4 challenging Spurs in N17? Some will say it's not like that the move to Stratford, well, isn't it? It might aswell be. As soon as you move out of Tottenham, you might aswell go to the moon, it won't make a difference IMO. We're Tottenham Hotspur, so as soon as THFC isn't in Tottenham, somethings wrong. We're not London FC where it's ok to be anywhere in the London area.

And those like me who are londoners, will know that North and East London is like seperate cities in terms of footballing terms. My dad grew up with the floodlights from WHL shining through his window in Edmonton. When he was 5-6 years old he could hear the fans roaring to our success in Europe. "Times move on, its better financially to move to Stratford", so? Like I said the NDP project had our board creaming last year, what's changed? We could do it last year, nothngs changed. They've just found a cheaper option.

I'd consider it if planning permission was removed or it got significantly more expensive to redevelop WHL. Until then, it's just another Club bowing to the IMO the end of football as we know it.

 

[EastLondonYid]

Yes, but once again that works both ways! Those supporting the move and saying we should move are doing so without knowing fully exactly what the costs are. They're just taking vague reports of the OS costing 200m as gospel and ranting and raving about how backwards anti-Stratford fans are. They are doing the complete opposite in other words, suppporting something they don't know the full information on.

Once we have the information we need to compare the two projects, then we can make an informed decision on our opinions.

However I, unlike some, believe that those saying they'd rather we stay at 36.000 WHL than 60.000 Stratford have a point. They don't just feel that way for the sake of it, they feel that way for what could be a number of reasons. That's what makes THFC special, the fact there's so many people that despite the area being a dump, connect with the WHL surroundings. We've been there since 1899, it's easy to see why fans are regarding this as an unacceptable move.

I'm opposed to the move. But I'd love to see the list of figures to see exactly what we would gain from moving to East London and ending our North London traditions.

^ this....

Everyone seems to know exactly whats going on , either for stratford or not ...

The truth is, none of us know whats really going on.
Do we really truly know what Enic are upto? do we really know why they would want a move to the OS..?

would all the pro-stratford posters still back a move, if they were to find out that Levy was instructed to get us the OS, so as Enic can find a buyer?
I am not saying this is the case, i am saying we don't know!

Be careful what you wish for....and why our current owners want a move.

 

[danielneeds]

Look there's fans that will disagree with other fans, due to the fact that there's people that aren't emotionally attached to the area. This is because either they are from other parts of London/outside London/overseas or just because they hate the area and want to avoid going there.

Wrong. I grew up in the area, and currently live in Hornsey, but I am open to the move because I think the club's long term interests are best served by moving into a modern stadium with good communication links at a reasonable price.

Unfortunately modern PL football clubs don't have the same connection with the area that they used to anyway. I don't know about you, but I don't see the players having a post-match drink in a pub on the high road like they used to, I don't know anyone who works for the club, and even if I did, I wouldn't be surprised if they continue to employ people from the area even if they move.

 

[AngerManagement]

I understand banter with rival fans is a big part of supporting a club, I have personally never understood why any spurs fan would care in the slightest that Arsenal sign about or poke fun at us making DVD's nor would I understand feeling anyway about them calling us Stratford Hotspur or whatever they felt to do.

But we are all indivduals and different people handle things in different ways, to me silly comments like that from Arsenal or any other fans are just water off a ducks back but other people may find it annoying or frustrating in some way (for one reason or another)

I wonder if any Arsenal fan has ever been even slightly annoyed by a tottenham fan calling them woolwich Arsenal though? I mean it happened so long ago, before everyone was born unless you happpen to be having some banter with a 98 year old gooner.

I come from west london, so the anti spurs banter comes more from Chelsea fans although it usually is about as witty as calling me a jew and talking about their foreskin. But like I say, I am not the type of person who is ever bothered by football banter, but that's just me.

To be fair to EastLondonYid, the banter is a side note to his reasons for wanting to stay and it is something that is personal and meaningful to him, who and I (or anyone) to tell him it means nothing if it does to him.

The bottom line is this, the move is all about the clubs identity and to which extent you feel the N17 postcode factors into this id. Those of us who do not see the area as being part of who we are are not bothered if the club moves because we still see the club as being the same just playing in a different stadium.

But those who feel strongly that Spurs is Tottenham and Tottenham is who we are N17 is a very big part of the clubs identity and I can understand (kind of, although not in agreement) that they would see the clubs move as being as bad as if the club changed it's name and moved to Paris to those of us who do not see the N17 area as being quite so important.

I know a few London Wasps fans, and watched them move to Loftus road and then to Wycombe. Their fans seemed to take it in their stride and they very much support the club the same as they did in London. But then they did not have the same history and long term connection to a single area and are indeed a kind of break away from the origional Wasps fc amature rugby club (which is the reason London was first added to the name I believe)

I hope if we do win the vote that a number of the fans who say they will see the club as dead and cease to support 'stratford spurs' will reconsider once they have time to come to terms with the fact that it will go ahead, I mean right now it's still only a prospect so much easier to be totally opposed to it without the reality....(kinda like the man who says no way would he ever suck a dick for £10m....maybe things would be slightly different if the £10m was infront of you, well maybe that's not a good way to put it but you know what I mean without the homoerotic imagery)

 

[EastLondonYid]

I understand banter with rival fans is a big part of supporting a club, I have personally never understood why any spurs fan would care in the slightest that Arsenal sign about or poke fun at us making DVD's nor would I understand feeling anyway about them calling us Stratford Hotspur or whatever they felt to do.

But we are all indivduals and different people handle things in different ways, to me silly comments like that from Arsenal or any other fans are just water off a ducks back but other people may find it annoying or frustrating in some way (for one reason or another)

I wonder if any Arsenal fan has ever been even slightly annoyed by a tottenham fan calling them woolwich Arsenal though? I mean it happened so long ago, before everyone was born unless you happpen to be having some banter with a 98 year old gooner.

I come from west london, so the anti spurs banter comes more from Chelsea fans although it usually is about as witty as calling me a jew and talking about their foreskin. But like I say, I am not the type of person who is ever bothered by football banter, but that's just me.

To be fair to EastLondonYid, the banter is a side note to his reasons for wanting to stay and it is something that is personal and meaningful to him, who and I (or anyone) to tell him it means nothing if it does to him.

The bottom line is this, the move is all about the clubs identity and to which extent you feel the N17 postcode factors into this id. Those of us who do not see the area as being part of who we are are not bothered if the club moves because we still see the club as being the same just playing in a different stadium.

But those who feel strongly that Spurs is Tottenham and Tottenham is who we are N17 is a very big part of the clubs identity and I can understand (kind of, although not in agreement) that they would see the clubs move as being as bad as if the club changed it's name and moved to Paris to those of us who do not see the N17 area as being quite so important.

I know a few London Wasps fans, and watched them move to Loftus road and then to Wycombe. Their fans seemed to take it in their stride and they very much support the club the same as they did in London. But then they did not have the same history and long term connection to a single area and are indeed a kind of break away from the origional Wasps fc amature rugby club (which is the reason London was first added to the name I believe)

I hope if we do win the vote that a number of the fans who say they will see the club as dead and cease to support 'stratford spurs' will reconsider once they have time to come to terms with the fact that it will go ahead, I mean right now it's still only a prospect so much easier to be totally opposed to it without the reality....(kinda like the man who says no way would he ever suck a dick for £10m....maybe things would be slightly different if the £10m was infront of you, well maybe that's not a good way to put it but you know what I mean without the homoerotic imagery)

Top post..:clap:


I know i come across abit ott on the subject, and i admit i am blinkered abit about the pro's of stratford, I don't care...But the whole point of SC was so we all air our views.
I was brought up a mile or so from the ground, i was a spurs fan from day 1, being a spurs fan to me was not just about 11 men playing in a stadium, a stadium you can just lift up and move to another area.
For me it was our club, in our community, it was personnal, it was part of our life and where we came from, i don't expect everyone to feel the way i do.In our school , we nearly all supported spurs, the area breathed and lived spurs...
When we got to all the f.a cup finals in the 80's, the area would be buzzing, shops and houses would be a sea of blue and white, Statford would never welcome us or accept us, we would be like lodgers.

Our club would only really be alive for 90 mins every 2 weeks.

TO me Tottenham belongs in tottenham...always,


No one on here with all the right logics will ever change how i feel.

 

[sloth]

That is exactly what it is to me, the club is no more if they aren't playing in Tottenham

If there were an earthquake or something and WHL fell down and our only option was to move to Stratford, would the club still have died for you?

Want I'm trying to get at is whether it's the location per se or if the voluntary aspect of the move is what's getting to you? If the club had literally no choice but to move to Stratford would they still cease to be your club?

 

[MattyP]

Matty & SS57 - not picking on you but of those opposed to Stratford you are being the most articulate. I'd like to know how much of a move is too far. To state the obvious NDP isn't identically located to our current stadium but is acceptable. If we didn't have that but could remain on the High Road would that be ok ? If no High Road anywhere in N17 ? If we couldn't get N17 would Stamford Hill as N16 be too far ?

I won't go on because you can see where I'm going, where do you draw the line and why ?

Best possible scenario would be to redevelop the existing stadium, but this would be problematic and expensive - reduced capacity whilst doing so, virtually no chance of naming rights.

It took me a while to come round to fully supporting the NDP, but by the time of the second planning application, for me it satisfied the balance between having a new stadium and retaining our history.

The new Park Lane would be in the location of the current Paxton, we would retain the link to our founding years by retaining the old Charingtons Pub, we'd retain links to our more recent past by retaining The Red House, The Nicholson gates, the cockerel clock in it's original location.

It is not exactly on the same site, it will not be WHL as it is today (or a developed version), but it was close enough. Our address would still be the same.

Personally I wouldn't want us to move to Enfield, to Picketts Lock, closer to Seven Sisters tube station even. They are not our traditional home.

The NDP as a whole will still occupy the site that we've been in for over a century, the stadium will still essentially be a misplaced Palacios pass away from where we are today.

 

[EastLondonYid]

How are we going to knock it all down when you read this.....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympic_games/london_2012/9366610.stm

Interesting how we intend to knock the OS down and rebuild, when they object to the running track being removed....are we being told porkies ? are we going to keep it as it is after all the fuss dies down?

 

[bigturnip]

If there were an earthquake or something and WHL fell down and our only option was to move to Stratford, would the club still have died for you?

Want I'm trying to get at is whether it's the location per se or if the voluntary aspect of the move is what's getting to you? If the club had literally no choice but to move to Stratford would they still cease to be your club?

If it was a temporary move while a new stadium was built in Tottenham then of course it would be acceptable, if it were to be a permanent move then I would feel exactly as I do now.

I don't see how there would ever be a scenario where a permanent move to Stratford could be forced upon the club.

 

[bigturnip]

How are we going to knock it all down when you read this.....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympic_games/london_2012/9366610.stm

Interesting how we intend to knock the OS down and rebuild, when they object to the running track being removed....are we being told porkies ? are we going to keep it as it is after all the fuss dies down?

Reading the debate from that article is also very heartening.

 

[Hoowl]

Top post..:clap:
I know i come across abit ott on the subject, and i admit i am blinkered abit about the pro's of stratford, I don't care...But the whole point of SC was so we all air our views.
I was brought up a mile or so from the ground, i was a spurs fan from day 1, being a spurs fan to me was not just about 11 men playing in a stadium, a stadium you can just lift up and move to another area.
For me it was our club, in our community, it was personnal, it was part of our life and where we came from, i don't expect everyone to feel the way i do.In our school , we nearly all supported spurs, the area breathed and lived spurs...
When we got to all the f.a cup finals in the 80's, the area would be buzzing, shops and houses would be a sea of blue and white, Statford would never welcome us or accept us, we would be like lodgers.

Our club would only really be alive for 90 mins every 2 weeks.

TO me Tottenham belongs in tottenham...always,


No one on here with all the right logics will ever change how i feel.

I think it's interesting what represents Tottenham Hotspur to different people. If you actually live in Tottenham I can understand that you would associate more aspects of the area with the football club than someone who travels to the ground and maybe only frequents their favourite pub before kick off but that doesn't necessarily relate them to Tottenham Hostpur universally. However, does that matter? Because they're Tottenham Hotspur to you, and you're a fan, does that make them Tottenham Hotspur?

If you extrapolate this further, for some people Tottenham Hotspur could include a journey from their house in Manchester but it would hard to justify this as a universal connection to Tottenham. I would imagine the majority of season ticket holders don't live in Tottenham. I am certain that most fans live outside Tottenham. So should the area hold a big association with everyone?

Just because you go to the Bell and Hare before kick off, is the Bell and Hare part of Tottenham Hotspur? I imagine tt would be for you, but there would be a lot of fans to which it had not meaning. If we moved to Stratford, there would be a new pub in which Spurs fans would gather. To them it would be part of their matchday ritule but I would argue that it wouldn't be part of Tottenham Hotspur. I would say it's the congregation of fans that is the key, not the venue.

 

[roosh]

I have to echo the sentiments of AngerManagement, and many of those who oppose the move to stratford.

For me retaining our historical links with the area around WHL is important, and it would be great to develop a hugely successful team there, so that we could not only enjoy that success, but we could also point to how we have done it withot compromising our historical roots.

In an era where everything in football seems to be about money, it would be great to maintain the integrity and values of a club who values their history and the community they grew up in.


The question is, at what cost do we attempt to retain that?


Personally, all of that won't be worth a fuck to me, if we are not competing with the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal, City and United on the field. If we can't compete because the wages we can offer are too low to attract the best players, because our salaries are capped at a percentage of revenue, and our revenue is limited by the cost of the NDP development, as well as reduced revenue streams.

It has taken us decades to return to anywhere near the summit of English and European football, and it if it a choice between maintaining that push towards the top or retaining sentimental connections with the area of Tottenham, and believing that we have maintained our integrity. If the only compensation we have while Arsenal, United, City and Chelsea fans, boast a share of the silverware, is that we stayed true to our roots, then I'm afraid that it won't have been worth it for me.

I would prefer to see a successful Tottenham Hotspur in a new location, than an also-ran Tottenahm Hotspur with a history that fades into ancient history the longer time goes by.

Now, of course it isn't a straight choice between success and staying where we are, and I don't think anyone who says they would potentially support a move, is saying that it is. If the same, or very similar opportunities for future success can be had by staying put, then that is, I think everyones preferred option.

The reality is, there could be a potential trade off between future success and staying where we are. Those who oppose the move at all costs are quite clearly stating that they are willing to sacrifice the success of the club, for staying where we are. Those who are saying they might potentially support the move, are saying that there is a point where future success of the club (which will become our history) is worth more than staying in our historical home (which would remain part of our history).

 

[EastLondonYid]

I think it's interesting what represents Tottenham Hotspur to different people. If you actually live in Tottenham I can understand that you would associate more aspects of the area with the football club than someone who travels to the ground and maybe only frequents their favourite pub before kick off but that doesn't necessarily relate them to Tottenham Hostpur universally. However, does that matter? Because they're Tottenham Hotspur to you, and you're a fan, does that make them Tottenham Hotspur?

If you extrapolate this further, for some people Tottenham Hotspur could include a journey from their house in Manchester but it would hard to justify this as a universal connection to Tottenham. I would imagine the majority of season ticket holders don't live in Tottenham. I am certain that most fans live outside Tottenham. So should the area hold a big association with everyone?

Just because you go to the Bell and Hare before kick off, is the Bell and Hare part of Tottenham Hotspur? I imagine tt would be for you, but there would be a lot of fans to which it had not meaning. If we moved to Stratford, there would be a new pub in which Spurs fans would gather. To them it would be part of their matchday ritule but I would argue that it wouldn't be part of Tottenham Hotspur. I would say it's the congregation of fans that is the key, not the venue.

Not the Venue ? sorry lets agree to disagree...

the other points you raise are fair enough, like i have said on previous posts, when you discuss with others on these sites, you don't know how they feel about our club, and what it means to them.

I don't mean they are lesser fans ...just different.

 

[Hoowl]

Not the Venue ? sorry lets agree to disagree...

the other points you raise are fair enough, like i have said on previous posts, when you discuss with others on these sites, you don't know how they feel about our club, and what it means to them.

I don't mean they are lesser fans ...just different.

I didn't mean the stadium by that remark, i meant the pub.

 

[SpurSince57]

i think it's unlikely that AEG had a board meeting one day and said lets get involved in this flag ship opportunity just because it will get right up live nation's nose, it may be a bonus but surely there is more to it than that.

They had protracted and widely reported negotiations with West Ham; these collapsed and West Ham threw in their lot with Live Nation, who presumably offered a much better deal. Have those of us starstruck by the Spurs-AEG link thought through the possible ramifications for 'our' plc? (Sorry, club.)

 

[jj87]

Very very sad to read such disparaging comments about 'banter' etc. Supporting a football club is necessarily an emotional process. Just casually disregarding all the things that make football special because they don't fit in to market rationality is really quite disheartening. Football is becoming so divorced from what it used to mean, that Stratford would be the final nail in the coffin. If you really want to turn being a Spurs fan into a soulless experience where day trippers sit politely and chat in a non-descript corporate events area (a la Emirates, although they at least stayed local!!) then by all means support the Stratford bid. It will not be the same thing at all.

If enough of us don't think emotions, tribalism, passion, rivalry, tradition and belonging mean anything, then we probably fucking deserve Stratford. What a sad day.

 

[sloth]

If it was a temporary move while a new stadium was built in Tottenham then of course it would be acceptable, if it were to be a permanent move then I would feel exactly as I do now.

I don't see how there would ever be a scenario where a permanent move to Stratford could be forced upon the club.

I dunno, a radiation bomb goes off on the high road or something... :razz:

No one can live in Tottenham for 100 years.

Would the club have died for you then?

It's not supposed to be a realistic scenario, but it is supposed to get at where you're coming from. I'm trying to work out if it's literally the hallowed ground you support whichsoever club happens to be on it, or if there's something additional you've yet to tell us, if there's something about the voluntary aspect of the move that winds you up.

 

[EastLondonYid]

Very very sad to read such disparaging comments about 'banter' etc. Supporting a football club is necessarily an emotional process. Just casually disregarding all the things that make football special because they don't fit in to market rationality is really quite disheartening. Football is becoming so divorced from what it used to mean, that Stratford would be the final nail in the coffin. If you really want to turn being a Spurs fan into a soulless experience where day trippers sit politely and chat in a non-descript corporate events area (a la Emirates, although they at least stayed local!!) then by all means support the Stratford bid. It will not be the same thing at all.

If enough of us don't think emotions, tribalism, passion, rivalry, tradition and belonging mean anything, then we probably fucking deserve Stratford. What a sad day.

:clap: ......repped.