The Bundesliga thread

[joey55]

This is how I waste my time.

It's pre-Bundesliga Oberligen tables.

http://www.bundesligatalk.com/what-if-current-pre-bundesliga-oberliga-tables/106

But I did get St. Pauli to 6th :grin:

What do you think of Aturo Vidal? In fact wheat do you think of Bayer in general? I think they are seriously good and if anyone can break into the top 3 it's them. They have a really good midfield and strike force. If they can keep those 6 players (Barnetta, Augusto, Vidal, Rolfes, Helmes and Kiesling) fit, then they could finish above your tip - Schalke.

 

[joey55]

I think that is the most fluid and dynamic midfield I've seen in a long time. All the talk about how great Arsenal is and they look boring compared to watching Bayer 04. Vidal, who I think is a bit of a head case, can really penetrate deep into defense and seems to really have come to a good understanding with Castro down that right flank. But the key, of course, is Augusto and Rofles (how many times did we call for him during the summer). They are amazing. Rofles with his ability to lock down the midfield by position and Augusto is just out of this world. Really shows you what can be done with 6 million pounds rather than 16.

I personally think that Bayer may win it. Bayern just isn't that good. Too old. I predicted Schalke but I don't like Rutten's tactics. But Bayer have had an incredible start and up until last week Adler wasn't match fit (10 saves this past weekend). And remember Helmes is the finisher they haven't had since Berba left.

A good comparison that shows their quality actually comes for the game they lost against Hamburg and our defeat to Villa. HSV were keeping the ball well, but got caught in possession 3 times and on 2 of these occassions Bayer played some fantastically quick passing and scored, whilst on the other time, went very close. You just can't give players of that quality a chance, as they use the ball so well. Yet against Villa, we got caught out loads of time, but despite the athleticism, none of the Villa players could find the final ball. Had we lost the all so eaily against Bayer, they've have punished us for sure.

I listed Augusto in the SC scouting thread.

Like you i think Bayer will go close, but the chances are they will have injuries and I don't think they have the strength in depth. It's annoying a no matter how shit Klinsmann is, the Bayern squad has so much more depth than anyone else's, that they will probably win in the end. Klinsmann will therefore be seen as a decent coach.

Where do you think HSV will finish? I can't really see much higher than 6th or maybe even lower. Neves is looking like he'll take a while to settle, as is Da Silva. And they lack a real driving force from the middle of the park. Appiah would actually be a good signing for them. Petric and Troch have impressed me, but other than that I think their current position is papering over the cracks. Their squad is lacking in too many areas and VDV carried them to an extent last season. The only reason they are doing pretty well is because Jol has them moving the ball well, so they dominate possession in most games. They lack real penetration and are quite flimsly in defence. I think if they had a couple of bad results in a row, it could turn into a run of several bad results.

 

[joey55]

I agree that HSV's faults at the back will catch up with them. The funny thing is that it was Huup who made this team sound defensively. They were actually rather boring to watch, like a George Graham team.

.

That's how they played on Saturday. De Jong and Jarolim sat much deeper and they were solid, but without VDV lacked creativity. Until the Wolfsburg game they were a very attacking team, but left holes at the back. As we saw against Bayer, good teams will always expolit this. It's a Catch 22 situation for Jol. If they play a more solid way, as on Satuyrday, they just wont crete the chances, but if they play a more expansive game, they'll get found out.

I think they have 2 main problems. One is that their fullbacks are dopey, so they need to be told to be less adventurous, as they don't read the danger and get back. The other is that whilst De Jong is a DM, Jarolim lacks the legs to get from box to box to support the attack. If he was more of an athelete, he could sit deep, as they did on Saturday, but then burst forward.

In fact other than Pitroipa, they don't have a vey athletic or powerful midfield. De Jong is no wimp, but he's not much use on the attack, whilst Neves looks flimsy, Troch is great but small and Jarolim looks like he's in his 50's. They are actually a very techinically gited midfield, but they lack physical presence. Even Ze Roberto at 34 is faster than all of HSV's 1st choice midfield 4. I think Hamburg have a tough season ahead and will be very thankful for the points they've picked up so far, as I think thye are going to struggle in the next couple of months. I can see them going out of Europe on Thursday.

I listed Subotic in the scouting thread also.

 

[joey55]

What Timothy Atouba is class baby! :grin:

Subotic will one day break the record for a defender. That kid is so flipping good. His read of the game at 19 breaks up most attacks early. He relied on Hummels to organize early, but being forced to partner Setana has helped him build that into his game. I would take the Berbatov money and spend it on him, Rofles and Ibesevic. Subo's my new Rene Adler. And the great thing is that Americans keep thinking he's going to play for them and he won't :grin:

It seems Prem clubs are obsessed with scouting France and South America, whilst ignoring what a hot bed of talent Germany is. Germany produce better players than England. Moyes has worked wonders at Everton by looking in the lower divisions for talent. Pleat and Arnesen did the same for us. The Bundesliga 2 has better talent in it than the Championship.

Players like Subotic, Ibesevic and Rolfes came from the lower leagues and cost next to nothing. I know Subotic was a record fee for a Bundesliga 2 player, but compared to what we pay in England for a defener, he was nothing. We should be scouting the German leagues. In fact I'd like a German D of F as they have all seem to have a good knowledge Germany, South America and Eastern Europe. These are the regions where we will find value for money. Buying players from Spain, France, Italy, Holland and Portugal will always be expensive as there are no secrets there. Whenever any team wants to buy a young talent from Portuhal it seems they come with a £15 million price tag.

Out of interest, where do you think Aston Villa would finish in the Bundesliga? They are favourites to finish 5th in the Prem, but personally i couldn't see them finishing in the top 6 in Germany. Obvioulsy the top 4 in the Prem are ridiculously good and much stronger than any other leagues top 4, but after that, I'd say the Bundesliga is as strong and at the moment the quality of football is better. I just watched Dortmund v Stuttgart and the quality was defintiely better than what we'd see from Everton, Pompey or Villa. Stuttgart lost 3-0 and had 4 German internationals in their side. We think Villa are decent because they have Barry and a couple of young talented English players!

I've been watching the French Ligue 1 aswell. It's shit.

 

[SpurSince57]

Now Bayern let Bochum score two goals in the last five minutes and thus chuck away a 3-1 lead. What on earth is going on?

I recorded Stuttgart v. Werder. Sounds a corker.

 

[Partizan]

yeah it was a great match. It's amusing how Stuttgart have spanked Bremen with a whooping 14 goals in their last 3 matches at home. Fantastic performance from brazilian Cacau

Bremen have also conceded and scored the most goals in the Bundesliga so far. Reminds me of someone in particular :lol:

 

[miles_64]

I don't have Sky so I can't watch the Bundesliga but am so happy for Martin Jol and the Hamburgers. Praying that we get through our group and draw them in Europe!

 

[SpurSince57]

The Bundesliga's on Setanta.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Joey/DP

I haven't watched any of the Bundesliga yet this season but your description of HSV under Jol sounds very reminiscent of his situation in 2005-6.

And with regards to scouting Germany, Comolli did bring the supposedly very promising KPB over (OK so not exactly a roaring success but..).

What did you two Bundesliga devotees think of the KPB transfer at the time ?

 

[SpurSince57]

Au contraire. Under Stevens last season they were pretty boring; Jol appears to be playing the kind of football he'd have played at Spurs if he'd had the players. Setanta haven't shown an HSV match in full yet (or if they have I've missed it) but on the weekly highlights they've looked pretty gung-ho. They came badly unstuck against Wolfsburg, but that's been about it.

But I would disagree with joey and DP about the quality. Whilst it's always difficult to judge one league against another I'd say the Bundesliga is some way behind the EPL and La Liga, ahead of Ligue 1 and posssibly on a par with Serie A.

 

[SpurSince57]

And for another reputed Spurs target, the Guardian's Raphael Hoenigstein on Bayern's latest disaster and Lukas Podolski.

Truth be told, 3-1 up with seven minutes to go is the exact time one should leave Munich's stadium because all you're going to miss is getting stuck in the car park for two hours. Bayern haven't won one out of every two championships in the last 40 years by winning games three times over. Their matches rarely last a full 90 minutes. Instead they score, kill you and then slow down well before the end, trying to conserve energy for the next match, the next calculated, dispassionate, perfectly-chilled three points.


But this is Klinsmann's Bayern. They do things differently. And infinitely worse. Out went the tireless 34-year-old Zé Roberto, in came Lukas Podolski, Tim Borowski and José Ernesto Sosa. With the exception of Podolski, who will soon take his unique brand of tactical dyslexia, laziness and unbridled sense of entitlement to the Premier League, they immediately swept forward in a deeply misguided attempt to impress their boss.



With the exception of Podolski, who couldn't have looked more wooden and inanimate if he had been put on the pitch as a cardboard cut-out, they ran around like kindergarten toddlers on a sugar rush, and forgot about any defensive responsibilities. In the midst of this uncoordinated assault on an already beaten opponent, Luca Toni missed 10 out of seven clear chances and Bochum thought: why not? With the stadium almost half-empty, they twice moved forward to find no resistance but the net, and equalised through a Dennis Grote header after another Michael Rensing shocker in the 85th minute.

Oh dear…

Full blog here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2008/oct/07/bayernmunich.bochum

 

[Partizan]

I talked to Rafa about Podolski coming to us and he thinks he's more likely to end up at Manchester City. I don't think he would be a good buy for us myself. I know that the FMers will want him, but he's not that good. Although I had no idea that Rafa had so much hate for him :grin:


Also Rene Adler is now the German #1 after Enke broke his hand. When he has a blinding game against Russia on Saturday and everybody finally takes notice of how he is on par with Casillas and Buffon, I just want everyone to remember that I said we should have gone after him two summers ago.

and get carried away, as usual

 

[miles_64]

And on a day of contrasting fortunes, Hamburg go top of the Bundesliga..!

 

[joey55]

And on a day of contrasting fortunes, Hamburg go top of the Bundesliga..!

They did very well to get a point today. They have terrible injury problems and were without (or weren't fit to start) De Jong, Jensen, Petric, Neves and Boateng. This is why I don't see them finishing in the top 3. They have a good first team, but their squad depth isn't good enough and they have to rely of the likes of Demel, Benjamin and Pretroipa (talented but a bit useless at the moment). Today they had to put Benjamin and Jarolim in a CM pair up aginst Jones, Engelaar and Ernst. I thought they were sure to lose, but got a draw. In the coming weeks they face a few of the CL rivals and with the injuries they have, I can see them dropping out of the top 3.

 

[SpurSince57]

Haven't watched the whole game yet, but that was a cracking goal from Trochowski, and a great assist. Not impressed by Engelaar.

 

[joey55]

DoublePivot, what do think of this lot:

Lars Bender (i've never seen this guy play, but a mate said he was good)
Castro
Andreas Beck
Hummels
Salihovic
Gentner
Gustavo
Geromel
Khedira

From what i've seen they all look impressive.

 

[miles_64]

Thanks for the summary there Joey!

 

[Partizan]

DoublePivot, what do think of this lot:

Lars Bender (i've never seen this guy play, but a mate said he was good)
Castro
Andreas Beck
Hummels
Salihovic
Gentner
Gustavo
Geromel
Khedira

From what i've seen they all look impressive.

What about Marko Marin? I only saw him twice but he looked like a great talent

 

[joey55]

What about Marko Marin? I only saw him twice but he looked like a great talent

I'm looking at players in terms of the Prem. So, I'd say Marin is probably too small (and not lightening quick like lennon). The other thing is that because he is so skillful he catches the eye easily and I personally think he gets over rated. It's very often the case with wingers. They tend to be either very skilfull (nice tricks and dribbling) or very quick, or both. These are great attributes to watch and therefore these type of players stand out. But more often than not they flatter to decieve. I think Marin needs to bulk up and start providing a bit more end product.

What I like about the Bundesliga is that there are alot of both technically gifted, yet physically strong players. Most of the players on the list I made are over 6ft tall and strong. For example, one of my favourite players in the Bundesliga at the moment is Troche, but because he's small, not aggressive and a bit light weight, I wouldn't really know where to play him in the Prem (plus I'm mainly concentrating on young players).

 

[DoublePivot]

DoublePivot, what do think of this lot:

Lars Bender (i've never seen this guy play, but a mate said he was good)
Castro
Andreas Beck
Hummels
Salihovic
Gentner
Gustavo
Geromel
Khedira

From what i've seen they all look impressive.

Really behind sorry. I have 3 games on tape and haven't written in my blog in days.

So here we go.

Bender
great name. I don't see much Zweite. I did see him hit a cracker of a goal, but one goal does not make a player. I would trust your mate's instincts

Castro
Not really necessary. Great attacker, lacks a bit defensively.

Andreas Beck
Needs time. Cool little fact, born in the Soviet Union.

Hummels
I fucking love this kid. Love him. Great read of the game. He's the poised one of the Subotic/Hummels pairing and tends to go under the radar because of it. Would buy him and Subo and have a CH pairing for the next 10 years.

Salihovic
Right sided play maker. Tidy player and obviously the catalyst for Hoffenheim, but not better than Augusto who can play more centrally.

Gentner
He's solid, but unspectacular. But he's a leftie so I wouldn't say no to him

Gustavo
Valera at Schalke? Not seen much of him. Seems like a wasted signing. But has been shackled with knee issues. He's 28

Geromel
In a second. Gets better each game and is holding a patchwork Zweite defense together for Koln. Probably would be just below Subo and above Hummels on my "shoot my load" if we got them list.

Khedira
Not convinced. Reminds me of Jenas in all run with little contribution at times. We'll see how he settles as the AM when he returns.

Marko Marin
While slight of built, has a low center of gravity and can carry the ball against bigger players. Will use gravity to his advantage when barely touched. But is a blonde version of Messi and I would take the kid in a heartbeat if we weren't already inundated with midget midfielders. He's going to be gangbusters...really!