The Case For Frank de Boer...continued

[Yid]

Ok so after your excellent comments I want frank mor than lvg now , gods sakes spurs kill me

To be honest, I myself don't know what (or whom) I want.
FDB would be awesome, but I am not sure if he would want to come here.
It will be a long and cruel Summer, that's for sure.

 

[millsey]

To win the league, you need to be able to score goals and keep clean sheets. It will matter very much when they lose out on the league title on goal difference, to Man City

Chelsea showed today how important a solid defence is, compared to playing free-flowing attacking football...I'm glad you posted this before today's game. Real Madrid (who did the same against Bayern in the week), or United under Ferguson, would also consistently pick off this Liverpool side by prioritising defence. I'll be very surprised if Liverpool can challenge for the title again next year, playing the same style of football. Every team will "park the bus" against them.

This may be liverpools only real chance to win the league for years and years. Imagine how strong chelsea will be if they buy 2 world class strikers. Suddenly I feel we are a million miles from those 2 teams

 

[millsey]

Very interesting question.
Albeit one that cannot be fully answered in a brief time-frame.
I suppose I'll just provide a general idea of what FDB is about.

His system is influenced largely by Cruyff and LVG. He basically incorporates the best of both worlds.
Both Cruyff and LVG teach intelligent ball movement and possession-oriented, attacking style of football at its core.
Their primary difference of managerial philosophy lies within the "individual vs the team" concept.
While Cruyff (almost fully) embraced the "Total Futbol" idea of each individual player's versatility and ability to adjust according to the opposition's strengths and/or weaknesses...LVG emphasizes collective strength of the team as a cohesive unit. His players function as one, and communication amongst the center-halves, the full backs, the mids, the attackers, etc., is one the main keys to success on the pitch.
Whereas Cruyff values individual creativity and adaptability on the pitch more than the uniform compliance of a well-oiled machine (which is LVG's standard).

So in essence, Frank De Boer utilizes the individual training approach of Cruyff, yet he still promotes LVG's belief that no individual is greater than the team...with the added benefit of constantly developing young talent of Ajax academy (especially with his experience starting out as a youth coach at Ajax, after he left the Netherlands assistant manager position).

I hope this helps.

I think what we want to know is does he have a game plan, does he change things when things go wrong, does his team beat there nearest rivals in the big games.

 

[millsey]

Did you watch that game? Wigan played City of the park.

And Mancini got sacked because of it!

 

[Yid]

That was no fluke, mate. Salzburg battered them, hands down and fair and square.. Dunno what they had for breakfast, but they reamed them hard and FDB had no answers.

I agree, it was a fair win. I am just saying it was more of an anomaly. An exception to the rule, rather than the rule.
If Salzburg played in the Eredivisie instead of the Austrian Bundesliga, they would be a mediocre team (at best), IMHO.
I guess the point I was trying to make is those losses were not common occurrences, that's all.

 

[thinktank]

I agree, it was a fair win. I am just saying it was more of an anomaly. An exception to the rule, rather than the rule.
If Salzburg played in the Eredivisie instead of the Austrian Bundesliga, they would be a mediocre team (at best), IMHO.
I guess the point I was trying to make is those losses were not common occurrences, that's all.

It was out-of-the blue, yeah, but what was interesting to me was FDB had no plan B and Ajax continued to play exactly the same throughout and tried to rely on their stock method, that was getting fisted, instead of skilfully adapting to what was in front of them.

Too many similarities to AVB for me...though I can appreciate how his team is drilled, organised and disciplined and like that he has a strong philosophy and technical appreciation.

If we ended up with him I wouldn't moan tbh. A light year improvement over DTS.

 

[Kubo]

I agree, it was a fair win. I am just saying it was more of an anomaly. An exception to the rule, rather than the rule.
If Salzburg played in the Eredivisie instead of the Austrian Bundesliga, they would be a mediocre team (at best), IMHO.
I guess the point I was trying to make is those losses were not common occurrences, that's all.

Are you sure those are the exceptions?

Four straight league titles, yeah that's great and all that, but FDB:s cup facit is bleak. Two dutch cup finals, lost both after throwing away leads. Knocked out by AZ the other two years. Always ending third in pretty competitive Champions League groups is nothing to be ashamed of, but they haven't ever progressed very far in the Europa League: knocked out by Spartak (okay), Man Utd (fair enough), Steaua (hmmm...) and Red Bull (not very impressive).

Without watching Ajax play much I can sense a pattern: just a bit more quality than the rivals to keep griding away in the league, but when the going gets tough...

 

[danielneeds]

You express some concerns that are legitimate, and others that are not so valid.

The Salzburg blowout was a total fluke, and anyone who's followed Ajax for the last 3 years (on top of being familiar with Salzburg) knows that.

Sorry but that Salzburg defeat was no fluke. I watched the 1st leg in Amsterdam specifically to watch De Boer's side against decent opposition, and Schmidt performed a tactical masterclass on Ajax, they closed down all of the Ajax defenders down in packs and forced turnovers. They swarmed them and Ajax and De Boer had no answer.

 

[Hitch]

Did you watch that game? Wigan played City of the park.

But they weren't beaten 5-1, and were in the end only undone by an injury time winner. To me it's not comparable.

There are many instances of a giant being outplayed by a minnow in a cup final such as that one. I do not however see many examples of a giant getting absolutely smashed into oblivion by a minnow in a cup final, such as was the case between Ajax and Pec.

 

[Hitch]

Are you really going to claim that a billionaire-owned Shiteh club (which was also a defending champion of arguably the strongest league in the World) full of primadonkeys -->> getting outplayed, out-hustled, and generally humiliated by championship-dwelling relegation fodder (a.k.a Wigan) in a Cup Final... is somehow less embarrassing than the Ajax loss to Zwolle?

Considering the fact Eredivisie is about 5 or 6 levels lower than the EPL, and Ajax is worth about 7 times less cash than Shiteh...Not to mention that Wigan has been relegated and Zwolle is still a mid-table club in the Eredivisie...The aforesaid comparison is not even remotely close to being fair. Just an FYI.

I'm not even sure what argument you're trying to make since it doesn't seem to bear significance to my point. The relative degrees of embarrassment between City-Wigan and Ajax-Pec are meaningless in the context. What happened to City is a completely different story from what I was alluding to, which is a dominant club getting humiliated by a cricket score in a cup final by a minor team.

Tell me the last time you ever saw one of City, United, Chelsea, Arse, Barca, Madrid, Bayern, etc get battered 5-1 in a domestic cup final by a mid-table level club.

 

[SargeantMeatCurtains]

There really is no predicting how well a manager will do at a football club, unless his name is Jose Mourinho.

Every manager has a different style and philosophy. Brendan Rodgers is now doing a fantastic job at Liverpool. The players and fans are completely on board with everything he wants to do with the club.

But it hasn't always been rosy for him. He was on the brink of relegating Reading from the championship 5 years ago, and that wasn't because he's a bad manager, its because he wasn't the right manager for Reading.

Theres a very, very fine line between appointing a manager based on his past glory (i.e. Benitez) and appointing somebody who is the right fit for the club(i.e. De Boer/Tuchel), whatever they may have won in the past will have absolutely no bearing on if they'll be a success at a club that doesnt match their own philosophies.

In my opinion, Frank De Boer is the perfect match for us. He is similar to Rodgers in the fact that he likes to keep the ball on the floor, and build from the back.

At Spurs we have fantastic defenders (not on this season's form) who are very capable with the ball at their feet. We have intelligent midfielders, and strong midfielders who can win and retain possession, believe it or not, but we have wingers who are capable of taking on fullbacks, and strikers who know how to score.

We have all the makings of a traditional dutch side, and if Levy backs a manager like De Boer, and signs HIS players, i think we'll come back very, very strong next season.

My opinion, of course! COYS

 

[Yid]

Sorry but that Salzburg defeat was no fluke. I watched the 1st leg in Amsterdam specifically to watch De Boer's side against decent opposition, and Schmidt performed a tactical masterclass on Ajax, they closed down all of the Ajax defenders down in packs and forced turnovers. They swarmed them and Ajax and De Boer had no answer.

I understand they were defeated fair and square (as I already pointed out twice in my previous posts).
Perhaps Schmidt did indeed perform a masterclass over FDB in that particular match-up, I am not positive.
However, there are a couple of things everyone who's minimizing FDB's achievements (citing the losses against Salzburg and the blowout vs Zwolle) either fails to realize or conveniently forgets -->>

1) These were 3 games in 3 + years. That's hardly a large enough sample size to utilize as critique of FDB's managerial abilities. Aside from these tiny shreds of instability (in the grand scheme of things), the man has a highly impressive winning record.

2) Considering FDB's available resources are much more restricted than that of a manager from any of the "big leagues", he has done an outstanding job developing 18 year old kids into skilled footballers (who have more often than not hung in there with some highly competitive clubs... even on the European level). De Boer can't just say to his board, I need to buy the next primadonna from Serie A (or fill in the blanks) whenever the transfer window comes around. On the contrary, he must sell his best players on the regular basis (Verts a couple of years ago...Eriksen + Alderweireld last year...Veltman is going to go this year, etc.), and then refill the squad with more teenagers (and he proceeds to mold them into quality players all over again...and the cycle continues). That is the way of Ajax.
Maybe you are applying the EPL standards to what he's doing in Holland. If that's the case, perhaps you need to lower your expectations a bit. The man has done a fantastic job given the circumstances. For the most part, he has restored Ajax's winning philosophy on a limited budget. One can't ask for much more (as long as one is being realistic).

3) Salzburg is a great club (but only in the confines of the Austrian Bundesliga). If Salzburg played in Holland, they would either be a bottom feeder (or a mediocre team at best). Plain and simple. Not saying they wouldn't be able to pull off an occasional upset or even win a trophy once every two decades, but at the end of the day, if Salzburg played FDB's Ajax on the regular basis, they would most likely lose each and every time.
And so would Zwolle for that matter. They beat Ajax once and that was under strenuous conditions for Ajax. Once in a while underdogs get lucky. Let's not make a big deal out of it.

If anyone is capable of producing actual physical evidence that De Boer is not a top top quality manager...any discernible pattern at all that shows he has not been successful. I will seriously consider that. Until then it's settled. He is a bad mothfo! And he is not even my first choice to replace what's his face.

COYS

 

[Yid]

I'm not even sure what argument you're trying to make since it doesn't seem to bear significance to my point. The relative degrees of embarrassment between City-Wigan and Ajax-Pec are meaningless in the context. What happened to City is a completely different story from what I was alluding to, which is a dominant club getting humiliated by a cricket score in a cup final by a minor team.

Tell me the last time you ever saw one of City, United, Chelsea, Arse, Barca, Madrid, Bayern, etc get battered 5-1 in a domestic cup final by a mid-table level club.

I am not trying to make an argument. You are. I was simply pointing out flaws in your logic.
These are your words, as follows:

"Forgive me. By comprehensively beaten I mean absolutely mauled 5-1. A 1-0 loss to Wigan is not in the same category."

Based on your statement above, you're implying Ajax's blowout by Zwolle is much worse (to put it simply) than the absolute and utter embarrassment EPL's defending champion (i.e. City) has suffered at the hands of a soon-to-be relegated (much much inferior) club (i.e. Wigan) during the FA cup final.
The aforesaid implication is flawed IMHO, because I think it is laughable to compare the two. These scenarios are not even close by any parameter imaginable. Any way you slice it, that is not a fair comparison.

You asked whether there was a club comprehensively beaten by a lesser opponent, and when a perfectly legitimate example (City vs Wigan) was provided to you by another party, you were quick to discard that example as invalid (by making the statement I quoted in the paragraph above).
I in turn reiterated that it was indeed a good example, and you can't just disqualify it as meaningless, simply because it renders your initial argument null and void.

Alright then. I am going to try and hit the hay.
Take care.

PS. Oh yes, forgot to mention that some of my previous posts in this thread may give you a better idea of what transpired during the KNVB Cup final between Ajax and Zwolle (as it directly pertains to our discussion). Cheers!

 

[ItsBoris]

It was out-of-the blue, yeah, but what was interesting to me was FDB had no plan B and Ajax continued to play exactly the same throughout and tried to rely on their stock method, that was getting fisted, instead of skilfully adapting to what was in front of them.

Too many similarities to AVB for me...though I can appreciate how his team is drilled, organised and disciplined and like that he has a strong philosophy and technical appreciation.

If we ended up with him I wouldn't moan tbh. A light year improvement over DTS.

That's what I'm worried about too. There seem to be many AVB clones about, who can get a top team in a weak league to play decent football but have no idea how to coach a team to break down deep, and often quality, defenses. Laudrup I'm sure would be another AVB, and I'm wary but not so certain about Pochetinno and De Boer. My gut tells me that Pochetinno would be the best choice though.

 

[beats1]

That's what I'm worried about too. There seem to be many AVB clones about, who can get a top team in a weak league to play decent football but have no idea how to coach a team to break down deep, and often quality, defenses. Laudrup I'm sure would be another AVB, and I'm wary but not so certain about Pochetinno and De Boer. My gut tells me that Pochetinno would be the best choice though.

The thing is AVB didnt have much experience people forget this! They compare him to other managers that worked under AVB in the past but forget that he wasn't part of the coaching team.

Frank De Boer has been a coach for 3 years
He also has been an assistant manager for 2 years in a team that made it to the World cup final
He also had to rebuild his team after losing Suarez, Eriksen, Vertonghen, Alderweld, Sulejmani, Van Der Weil and etc.
He also been at job for 4 years and had sustained success

The two only similarities between AVB is that they both have a high amounts of possession

 

[Riandor]

I find the plan B the most prevalent argument.
Whilst I'm sure FDB is not a bad manager by any stretch, you cannot win the tricky games by keeping to one style.

Look at Mourinho.

Ajax winning their league is as powder puff as Celtic winning the SPL or Porto the Portuguese league. It isn't really that challenging, might not always be assured, but it's no EPL.

Cup games are of more interest to me personally in this instance (with the league being an almost given) because it gauges how a manager reacts when he has to, when there is no next game to set things right and here I'm wary of FDB's record.

Would not be a bad appointment, but it wouldn't be a statement and I think a statement is what we need.

 

[ItsBoris]

The thing is AVB didnt have much experience people forget this! They compare him to other managers that worked under AVB in the past but forget that he wasn't part of the coaching team.

Frank De Boer has been a coach for 3 years
He also has been an assistant manager for 2 years in a team that made it to the World cup final
He also had to rebuild his team after losing Suarez, Eriksen, Vertonghen, Alderweld, Sulejmani, Van Der Weil and etc.
He also been at job for 4 years and had sustained success

The two only similarities between AVB is that they both have a high amounts of possession

I think people are just wondering how much it proves to win the title in the Eredivisie. Van Gaal won the title with AZ with 80 points. In Frank De Boer's seasons at Ajax, they've picked up 73, 76, and 76 points, and this year the max they can get is 73.

In BMJ's season at Ajax, they came 2nd but picked up 85 points (1 behind Twente) and had a +86 goal difference, compared to +40 for Twente. They scored 106 goals and conceded 20 in that season. FDB's best in 4 seasons is a goal difference of + 57, almost 30 worse than Jol's full season.

There may be other factors, but what's important is that BMJ was effectively an amazing manager in the Eredivisie. But I just don't think that doing well with Ajax means he'll be successful here, I have my doubts let's just say.

 

[MarkyP]

since when has possession football been considered cloning AVB......?

if anything, AVB was attempting to clone the style of other successful teams / coaches.. and failed..

when possession football is implemented correctly... it can be highly successful as various teams have shown.. when its not, you get the boring, turgid, slow tempo muck we were beginning to see under AVB...

 

[Kubo]

I think people are just wondering how much it proves to win the title in the Eredivisie. Van Gaal won the title with AZ with 80 points. In Frank De Boer's seasons at Ajax, they've picked up 73, 76, and 76 points, and this year the max they can get is 73.

In BMJ's season at Ajax, they came 2nd but picked up 85 points (1 behind Twente) and had a +86 goal difference, compared to +40 for Twente. They scored 106 goals and conceded 20 in that season. FDB's best in 4 seasons is a goal difference of + 57, almost 30 worse than Jol's full season.

There may be other factors, but what's important is that BMJ was effectively an amazing manager in the Eredivisie. But I just don't think that doing well with Ajax means he'll be successful here, I have my doubts let's just say.

To be fair, Martin Jol had this dude named Luis Suarez to call upon.

But I agree with your point. Winning the Eredivisie don't really prove nothing. Schteve McClaren did it, for crying out load.

 

[OPModric]

This does prove something I think, Ajax titles: 2001–02, 2003–04, 2010–11, 2011–12, 2012–13, 2013–14

Ajax didn't dominate until De Boers four straight wins.