The England Thread

[LexingtonSpurs]

The PL has killed the national team. I know this has been discussed ad naseum in the past, but it really is true. The opportunity for development is seriously hindered by the fact that a majority of the top positions (a roster spot in the prem) in the country are taken up by internationals. I dont see how you will ever overcome that if the prem stays as it is.

You are looking for problems instead of looking for solutions.

The foreign players - who, almost by definition, are better than the English players must have developed somewhere, right? How is it that they are able to develop into world-class players, while English players cannot develop?

The problem is not that the PL does not allow players to develop, because there are plenty of teams where a good prospect could develop. One of the problems is that English players are not going to places where they can develop. That could be to foreign leagues, or it could be that they should be signing for mid-to-lower table squads, or even Championship squads when they are lads, and not for top-6 caliber teams - where playing time is simply not going to be available for their personal development.

Part of that is on the FA though - from a distance, they seem to pick players based on name or team reputation rather than how they may fit into a particular system.

Anytime you reduce competition for spots, you are not making the players better, you are simply lowering the bar. If you want to be the best at anything, you need to raise the bar, not lower it.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

I have to disagree.
However what does piss me off is the bang average foreign players over here of which there are many who I'm sure could be replaced with English players who are just as average. But that wouldn't make any difference to our national sides success.

This is a money problem - average English players cost more than average foreign players. Why spend more to get the same product?

 

[beats1]

This is a money problem - average English players cost more than average foreign players. Why spend more to get the same product?

But what country isn't that true in? Homegrown players cost more everywhere only difference is that the Premier league is the only league where all the teams are doing well financially

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

But what country isn't that true in? Homegrown players cost more everywhere only difference is that the Premier league is the only league where all the teams are doing well financially

I am not sure what your point is - are you suggesting that teams should overspend for all players? That is not a sustainable business model.

Why would any rational businessman spend £100 when he can get the same quality product for £50?

 

[beats1]

I am not sure what your point is - are you suggesting that teams should overspend for all players? That is not a sustainable business model.

Why would any rational businessman spend £100 when he can get the same quality product for £50?

No, but it the same issue every club in the world has and yet they still manage to develop good players

Plus there is value for good young english players if you look for it
Huddlestone - £600k
Lennon - £1m
Dawson -
Naughton & Walker - £8m
Dier - £4m
Parker - £5.5m

 

[fortworthspur]

You are looking for problems instead of looking for solutions.

The foreign players - who, almost by definition, are better than the English players must have developed somewhere, right? How is it that they are able to develop into world-class players, while English players cannot develop?

The problem is not that the PL does not allow players to develop, because there are plenty of teams where a good prospect could develop. One of the problems is that English players are not going to places where they can develop. That could be to foreign leagues, or it could be that they should be signing for mid-to-lower table squads, or even Championship squads when they are lads, and not for top-6 caliber teams - where playing time is simply not going to be available for their personal development.

Part of that is on the FA though - from a distance, they seem to pick players based on name or team reputation rather than how they may fit into a particular system.

Anytime you reduce competition for spots, you are not making the players better, you are simply lowering the bar. If you want to be the best at anything, you need to raise the bar, not lower it.

take your local university. if you give two thirds of the engineering spots to Africans and South Americans, you arent going to have enough engineers in a few years. you can tell all the local teenagers they have to do better to win those spots back, but the fact is there are a LOT of africans and south americans. and they are hungry. The FA understands this and thus the homegrown rule, which is a start.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

take your local university. if you give two thirds of the engineering spots to Africans and South Americans, you arent going to have enough engineers in a few years. you can tell all the local teenagers they have to do better to win those spots back, but the fact is there are a LOT of africans and south americans. and they are hungry. The FA understands this and thus the homegrown rule, which is a start.

Assuming its merit based, then the engineers we do get back will be better than before.

And, if we had the top engineering university, and local students wanted to enroll, they would try harder to make the cut. For students who were not good enough to make the cut at the university, surely they have other options available to them - say a lesser university - to become engineers - and maybe even better engineers that came from the local university.

Any time you artificially alter the free-market, you are getting a lesser product. You could force out all foreigners, and only allow Englishmen to play - but now, they are not getting any better because the level of competition is drastically reduced. Increase the caliber of player in the PL, and you will find that the English players who make it will be closer to world-class than if you close the league. I would say that most world class players did not start out in the PL - thus blaming the PL for not developing players is misplaced.

If you want to improve the quality of the English national team, the answer lies with the FA and how the national program is set up and run - how the players are identified and selected at all age groups. Players from big clubs, with big reputations, are not always the best fit for a national team. Players who are suitable with one set of tactics, may be unsuitable under another set of tactics.

 

[fortworthspur]

Assuming its merit based, then the engineers we do get back will be better than before.

And, if we had the top engineering university, and local students wanted to enroll, they would try harder to make the cut. For students who were not good enough to make the cut at the university, surely they have other options available to them - say a lesser university - to become engineers - and maybe even better engineers that came from the local university.

Any time you artificially alter the free-market, you are getting a lesser product. You could force out all foreigners, and only allow Englishmen to play - but now, they are not getting any better because the level of competition is drastically reduced. Increase the caliber of player in the PL, and you will find that the English players who make it will be closer to world-class than if you close the league. I would say that most world class players did not start out in the PL - thus blaming the PL for not developing players is misplaced.

If you want to improve the quality of the English national team, the answer lies with the FA and how the national program is set up and run - how the players are identified and selected at all age groups. Players from big clubs, with big reputations, are not always the best fit for a national team. Players who are suitable with one set of tactics, may be unsuitable under another set of tactics.

yeah maybe the engineers are a little better, but you have 2/3 less of them. thats what England is trying to do, build a national team with about a 1/3 of the players Germany and France and Italy have to choose from.

 

[nailsy]

Players improve with experience. If a young English player can't get into their club side because an overseas player fills his position then its obviously going to hurt his development. Obviously that's not the only reason for Englands decline but I'd say its part of it.

I'm not sure how you solve the problem, because most people, including me, are more interested in the eighty plus club games you get in a two year period, rather than the ten to fifteen Internationals that you might get in the same period.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

.

Players improve with experience. If a young English player can't get into their club side because an overseas player fills his position then its obviously going to hurt his development. Obviously that's not the only reason for Englands decline but I'd say its part of it.

I'm not sure how you solve the problem, because most people, including me, are more interested in the eighty plus club games you get in a two year period, rather than the ten to fifteen Internationals that you might get in the same period.

Thats on the player then to find a club where he is going to gain that experience early in his career. The FA could play a role in this by advising players early in the youth set-ups that getting playing time at "lesser" clubs, or even "lesser" leagues when they are young will speed their growth - and will actually pay-off in the long-run.

Too many players/families/agents are enamoured with the short-term gains of signing a big contract with a big club, even if it stagnates growth and actually costs the player money in future deals. Elite English youth players would also do well getting experience in foreign leagues where they are exposed to different tactics and challenges. Dier's experience in Portugal did not seem to hurt his development...

The FA cannot rely on upper-table teams, who have aspirations of CL or EL, to play young players to gain experience - managers are fired on an annual basis for not winning. Players should understand that before signing for those teams, even in the youth set-up.

 

[LSUY]

Breaking news: England matches could be taken around the country again from 2018 - if Wembley becomes home to a new NFL franchise #SSNHQ

That's £757m well spent.

 

[Wellspurs]

Anyone going tonight? Big qualifying game?... I am free ticket mind.

 

[beats1]

That's £757m well spent.

Pretty disgraceful imo

 

[goughie1966]

Anyone going tonight? Big qualifying game?... I am free ticket mind.

You'd have to pay me!

 

[Marty]

Breaking news: England matches could be taken around the country again from 2018 - if Wembley becomes home to a new NFL franchise #SSNHQ

That's £757m well spent.

England matches definitely should be taken around the country as soon as possible. Having even friendlies at Wembley takes away some of the supposed magic of playing there, if there's any left by now.

But an NFL franchise? AYFKM?

 

[SteveH]

England matches definitely should be taken around the country as soon as possible. Having even friendlies at Wembley takes away some of the supposed magic of playing there, if there's any left by now.

But an NFL franchise? AYFKM?

Spot on!
Who currently looks forward to international week(s)? Two week is too long one would suffice.
We should buy (take it of the FA hands) Wembley! Change the colour of the seats, oh and the caterers. Its a total waste of money as it stands.

As for NFL for the odd weekend its doable. But if I want to watch the Jets (I know - for my sins) I'll catch them at 'their' stadium......

 

[talkshowhost86]

So are we effectively saying that Wembley was built to house an NFL team now?

Don't get me wrong I think the England team should tour the country for friendlies, but if they aren't using Wembley as the main ground for competitive England games it all seems a little bit ridiculous.

 

[L-man]

Got a tenner on both Over 12 corners and Over 13 corners. Will effectively double my money if it comes in.

Not great odds but I always do it when England play the likes of San Marino and Andorra etc. and it's come in every time so far. Last two games vs San Marino had 16 and 17 corners

 

[Coyboy]

So are we effectively saying that Wembley was built to house an NFL team now?

Don't get me wrong I think the England team should tour the country for friendlies, but if they aren't using Wembley as the main ground for competitive England games it all seems a little bit ridiculous.

Well it’s the national stadium so it will be still be used 6 or so times a year for cup finals and possibly semis. Presumably England would tour the country so they would play there sometimes and anyway isn’t there an obligation for these places to put on other events such as concerts and in this case NFL games?

 

[gushayes11]

I've put a few quid on 5-0 and 6-0. Think we will struggle for the first 20 mins then 1 could open the floodgates.