The Harry Effect

[Bus-Conductor]

That article is moronic

To suggest that Mickey Mouse could enjoy success with the quality in the sqaud is to basically dimiss the worth of having a manager in the game at all.

The is a reason to jobs require top managers and said top managers are paid vast sums of money. To suggest their role is trivial to the extent a ficticious cartoon mouse could do it is to frankly make a fool out of yourself (this is excatly what the writer has achieved.)

Tell that to those managers who have tried and failed to bring success to clubs brimming with talent in recent times, countless Newcastle managers, Roy Evans during his regin at Liverpool, Ranieri at Chelsea (Avaram GRant too) managers at Real and Barca constanly pay the price for failed campagins dispite having untold talent at their disposal.

There are many many more factors involved in a top manager bringing success to a top club then simply the players in the squad they manage. For the authour of that article to have such a generic view is to prove one of two things, he is an idiot or he has a personal vendetta and is using his article to express his bitterness with what is little more then sour grapes (could well be both.)

The sad things is there are so many people who will simply take everything he wrote as the gospbel seeing as far too few question what they read and hear and are all to quick to take such hate mongering at face value and adopt it as their own view.

That article has all the class of a BNP newsletter informing the members of Dagenham borough that the government is giving £80,00 grants to any African family wishing to purchase a house in the area.

He dismisses Redknapps achievements at Pompey, that is laughable, before Redknapp they were a lower league team with no hope of every reaching the top flight. Under him they became established Premiership outfit and won the FA cup to boot (the first non top four side to do so in 13 or so years)

I'm sure if you were to ask any well informed non bitter Pompey fan if Redknapp under achieved there they would not be so quick to agree with the author on this occasion.

How any Spurs fan can be looking to shoot down or write off Redknapp already is truely beyond me and really disapoints me. He as the new manager deserves a clean slate with us, it is after all the first time he has ever been giving such a high profile and presitgeous role at a club with real potential and resources.

So in my mind his work at the likes of Pompey and West Ham is not directly comparible with what he will have to do here, he has never been in the postion he is now and while this serves as no evidence for why he can take us forward, equally it does not to serve to prove he cannot and at this stage (after already dragging us out of the bottom 3) he certainly deserves the beneift of (the admittidly large) doubt.

I honestly think those banging on about how we shouldn't have sacked Ramos and trying to prove why Redknapp has no future are as bad as the Baekz and co bring back Martin Jol posts. Same waste of time, it doesnt matter spilt milk crying posts, just this time written with a good deal more eloquence.

I'm not trying to be a Spurs Nazi (oxymoron in the extreme) and this forum is here for debate of course, but I am truely disapointed by fellow Spurs fans who are showing such neagativity already and not (in my opinion) backing the club to the extent they should.

I am one of those people that believe strongly a positive attiuide has a direct releation to positive achievement and I feel we as the fans have a role to play in that aspect of the positive energies surrounding our club.

Im not saying we should blindly follow the club and accept whatever the system (in this case board) does and tells us, but Harry deserves and if you think not has certainly earned with his inital results the right to have us all back him 100% at this stage not to be calling him small time, belittling his past achievements and suggesting he is not good/big enough to be incharge of our club.

A few weeks ago we were languishing at the bottom, playing god awful football and never looked like scoring let alone winning. Ramos was rightly sacked as a result (the whats and whys this came to pass are no longer important) and the new guy has came in and turned things around, we are winning games and scoring goals.

this ends my interest in this thread, I will not be reading or posting in it again I hope it goes away quickly and articles like that ex Southampton failure wrote are never posted in this forum again.

That ex-southampton failure (which is a term that could be fairly used to describe Redknapp too) was responsible for bringing a form of coaching which introduced a dirfferent approach to youngsters. If I remember correctly it used a ball which encouraged the need for technique and control. Something english players in general have severely needed. I don't really see why he deserves to be derided and ridiculed just because he is saying something you don't like hearing.

He has had the courage to put it in print, suggesting that it is probably true as otherwise he would leave himself open for libel. Clive Woodward also had problems with Redknapp when trying to instill a better sporting (fitness etc) regime if I remeber correctly.

This forum is exactly the place where this debate should take place. Not at the Lane on a Saturday or outside the Chairmans office after a game on mass.

Whilst I didn't agree with the Jol hangers on, I was happy to debate the merits or otherwise of Ramos's appintment and his sacking plenty of times.

As far as I'm concerned it is entirely what football is about . It is purely entertainment (with a dividend once every 5 years if I'm lucky).

Yes let's get behind the fuckers every week. But let's not disconnect our brains the rest of the time.

The micky mouse stuff was obviously a tongue in cheek pop at a bloke who he clearly thinks isn't a tactical genius.

Frankly neither do I. But you know what. In two years time when we are in the CL or have have won the UEFA cup playing great football you can come on here and gice me a verbal caning. But why not just read I'm saying and come up with a rational response instead of saying it's all bollocks and how very dare you ?

Why not explain to me why you think Redknapp didn't achieve much with a fantastic West ham team or play very good football with the team he had at Pompey.

And by the way, I think you may find he achived promotion by spending more than most in the division, backed by Mandric.

 

[Damian99]

Why not explain to me why you think Redknapp didn't achieve much with a fantastic West ham team or play very good football with the team he had at Pompey.

And by the way, I think you may find he achived promotion by spending more than most in the division, backed by Mandric.

He Won an FA CUP with Portsmouth of which you put down to being "jammy". List me some of these players that Portsmouth had/have that make you believe they should be pushing into the top four? A top four we have(minus the jol era) struggled to reach even the top 10 with a squad far better than anything Redknapps ever worked with.

Ramos won us a CC cup and you wank over it. Most of the big four look at that as a joke something they can use their second string/youngsters. They don't need to win the CC cup to gain European qualification. It's hardly Harry Redknapps fault he only had to beat Cardiff in the FA Cup final.

I had no interest in Redknapp before he became Tottenham manager yet you claim Portsmouth didn't play very good football, how do you know this? By watching the odd televised game on sky? Or what other people may have told you?.

You may well end up being right and Redknapp may end up like the rest of them and getting the sack. But to write him off straight away and to suggest we were better in the 8 games under Ramos, then no imo.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I agree with you, in the extent that I don't think Redknapp is a special manager in the mould of Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho, Hiddinck et al, and will probably never take us to heights that we all hope for.

But I think by holding on to the idea that Ramos was "unlucky" in matches or "unfortunate" in the events surrounding transfers, you are grasping on straws.

The team that I saw play this season pre-Redknapp would have got relegated, no doubt. Not Pav acclimatising, nor anything else would saved them, there was no belief in the side, it would have got worse not better.

Ramos allowed the rot to set in last season even with Berbs and Keane, so ultimately he has to be blamed for the continuing poor league form. He should have had the strength to stamp his authority on the club and team..something which from afar I didn't see.

You criticise Redknapp for building a good team at Portsmouth and then not challenging for champs league, but the fact was that he had to balance the books and didn't really have the depth of squad or quality in wide areas to push on to extent he would have liked, a reason he has come to Spurs...

Oh and by the way, I would lay good money on Sir Alex having a cup of tea and Racing Post in his office too, never done United any harm has it?

Fair comments. Ultimately I cannot guarantee that ramos would have succeeded. But do you honestly think that 12 months - all but 8 games of which was with players who had already qualified for europe, staved off the relegattion threat and had very little to play for, especially those that suspected they wouldn't be here next year - is really long enough to change a whole regime.

Ramos was trying to change the whole ethos from top to bottom. Players were bought with an emphasis on quality and technique not versatility.

I keep banging on about this. You either think it inconsequential or mistaken but from January to August we effectly replaced 4 defenders (inc Goalie), two midfielders and both strikers.

Do you really believe 8 games was long enough to say this is never going to work, given that the new man was always going to have to work with the same players ?

I have criticised Ramos plenty. Read any of the ratings thread and you will know I didn't think he got everything right. And I would have been just as disapointed if Jol had got the sack two seasons ago when he started badly then (ie in his second ful season) and said so.

Sacking managers after a year, especially ones like Ramos, with proven ability, trying to change (and as Yanno said maybe that was part of his undoing) everything and make us into more than just perenial dreamers, seems like a very short sighted thing to do.

Personally even on the worst days I could see what we were trying to do, the football we were trying to play. Personally I liked that style. I like to see us pass the ball. I accept that that is part of my discomfort with the whole thing. And maybe others are less fussy, but I persoanlly think that it is only by playing this type of football that you will - sooner or later - achieve sustainable success. Not just 15 minutes of glory.

 

[Mullers]

Perhaps if Ramos had some better man management skills then maybe he'd still be in charge.

 

[oohaahedgar]

Bus -Conductor you are quite clearly mad. I don't like slagging off a fellow Spurs fan but at the beginning of this thread you sounded wrong. Now you sound like a bitter, twisted idiot with an axe to grind. Ramos might have been a decent manager but he was totally wrong for us and the premiership, where as Harry has a vast knowledge of the way the english league and players work. He also has a good eye for a player and I think is as tactically aware as Sir Alex Ferguson. I'm not saying we are going to be world beaters under his stewardship, we haven't been since Bill Nicholson but we have a chance of being where we should be, i.e. challenging the top 4( purely on money spent on players). It sounds as if you would be slightly pissed off if this happened under Redknapp as you seem so dead against him.

 

[Michey]

Perhaps if Ramos had some better man management skills then maybe he'd still be in charge.

That is if the players are telling the truth.....who knows. It seemed to work in Spain. What would be the difference.....are spanish players tougher and gets by without having to talk all the time...

The question needed to asked...

 

[Sputic]

Sorry but thats just a ridiculous way of looking at things. So by your analysis, the manager doesn't get credit for the good decisions he makes? These are decisions that Harry made which proved crucial to our results. Its easy to sit back and say "yeah well why didn't he just play Pavylcuhenko and Lennon from the start?" But thats the point, would that have won the games? Not necessarily. He made the right changes at the right times and as a result he has won crucial games. So why cant you acknowledge that? And why dont you give an example of the great decisions that Ramos made, or even Martin Jol, and tell me how they're any different than the decisions Harry has made in the last month?

Ridiculous cos I don't agree with you? They weren't good decisions, they were obvious ones. They were barely decisions. Jol and Ramos frequently threw on extra forwards when we were chasing games. It didn't make them tactical geniuses either.

I'm not arguing that Redknapp's not better than Ramos, cos he is. But the performances against the only real opposition - Arsenal, Liverpool (league), Fulham and Man City have been poor. I'm just being realistic.


And by the way, we were 1-0 down within a minute against Liverpool. Your eyes are wide open, aren't they.

 

[jimbo]

I think that generally English players aren't as intelligent as their continental counterparts. Having a core of English players was going to hamper Ramos, as it would hamper Wenger. Which is not say that Harry is a simpleton, far from it, he just knows how to get the best out of these players something which Ramos failed to do.

In his own words he'd tell you the game is all about confidence, I think he has a point.

 

[yanno]

Hi yanno

some good stuff there about the likely effects of JR on some of our players - have some rep


I'd never thought of comparing JR to Hodd before - but hey there are some similarities aren't there ?

Thanks for the rep, DC_Boy.

I don't want to push the Hoddle/Ramos comparison too far. There are some major differences, such as the fact that a veteran Hoddle would play 5-a-sides in training and still be the most gifted player at the club (as the Hud testified about his time on loan at Wolves). Whereas Ramos was never going to impress any of our players with his touch and technique. :wink:

However, I do think both Ramos & Hoddle were a little unlucky in that they did not have time to mould & develop the team they were creating.

In Glenn's case, he signed Kanoute to play alongside Keane and was sacked four games into their putative partnership. Most English pundits thought Fredi was a lazy waste of space, but time has proved that Hoddle's judgement of Kanoute as a player, and as a potential partner for Keane, was a case of excellent judgement. Especially given the fact Fredi only cost a couple of million.

In Ramos' case, as B-C has written, he had lost three goalscoring strikers, including the creative hub of the team in Berba, and he was seeking to upgrade the technical quality of our midfield. I have no doubt that Juande - rightly or wrongly - judged Bentley, Modric and Dos Santos as an improvement in terms of technique and vision over the likes of Lennon, any of our CMs and Steed. However, Bentley allegedly turned up unfit (source: Balague), and with the loss of a massively creative striker in Berba, Ramos seemed unsure of how to integrate Luka & Gio.

Ramos was sacked, and Clive Allen immediately showed that Modric, Huddlestone & JJ can play in the same team. I remain staggered that an astute coach like Ramos never tried this CM combination.

Fundamentally though, both Hoddle & Ramos appear to have lost the dressing room. And once that happens, the chairman either sells half-a-dozen key players or sacks the coach. And so the coach almost always gets the boot.

Roy Keane's most famous rant against Ferguson concerned that "fucking horse" - Magnier and McManus' Rock of Gibraltar. Fergie loves money (at one stage, most of manure's academy allegedly had to sign contracts with his son's agency), and he loves his nags. But Ferguson has always employed outstanding and tactically astute coaches from manure's academy through to their first team. Leaving Fergie's role as kicking boots at Beckham's head and applying the hairdryer when necessary.

I wouldn't mind 'Arry spending much of his time checking the racing form if he hired proper coaches. But the descriptions of Kevin Bond's coaching prowess fill me with gloom. And Joe Jordan may stare the players down, but I'm not sure how much more there is beyond the man of granite image. Every match, Clive Allen unfortunately seems a few seats further down the bench away from 'Arry....

It's true that no manager will have an A+ in all the various skills needed to be world class. But the best managers make sure they surround themselves with colleagues who complement their strengths and compensate for their weaknesses.

I suspect Donkey Adams organized 'Arry's defence for him at Pompey - so that was a good coaching appointment. Given his background at the FA, Tony Parks may prove a good goalkeeping coach for Gomes. I'm looking for more of these types of appointments and for 'Arry to show that he can mould our talented squad into a team that can consistently get the best out of the likes of Modric, Huddlestone and Bale.

Here's hoping. :beer:

 

[Sputic]

You criticise Redknapp for building a good team at Portsmouth and then not challenging for champs league, but the fact was that he had to balance the books and didn't really have the depth of squad or quality in wide areas to push on to extent he would have liked, a reason he has come to Spurs...

He didn't balance the books though. They're financially screwed because of the huge wage bill built up under Redknapp. And this is something that follows him around. The wage bill at West Ham was ridiculous too. Especially for a team that spent most seasons narrowly escaping relegation.

 

[arnoldlayne]

That is if the players are telling the truth.....who knows. It seemed to work in Spain. What would be the difference.....are spanish players tougher and gets by without having to talk all the time...

The question needed to asked...

Maybe Spanish players aren't all as thick as Bentley and co.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Thanks for the rep, DC_Boy.

I don't want to push the Hoddle/Ramos comparison too far. There are some major differences, such as the fact that a veteran Hoddle would play 5-a-sides in training and still be the most gifted player at the club (as the Hud testified about his time on loan at Wolves). Whereas Ramos was never going to impress any of our players with his touch and technique. :wink:

However, I do think both Ramos & Hoddle were a little unlucky in that they did not have time to mould & develop the team they were creating.

In Glenn's case, he signed Kanoute to play alongside Keane and was sacked four games into their putative partnership. Most English pundits thought Fredi was a lazy waste of space, but time has proved that Hoddle's judgement of Kanoute as a player, and as a potential partner for Keane, was a case of excellent judgement. Especially given the fact Fredi only cost a couple of million.

In Ramos' case, as B-C has written, he had lost three goalscoring strikers, including the creative hub of the team in Berba, and he was seeking to upgrade the technical quality of our midfield. I have no doubt that Juande - rightly or wrongly - judged Bentley, Modric and Dos Santos as an improvement in terms of technique and vision over the likes of Lennon, any of our CMs and Steed. However, Bentley allegedly turned up unfit (source: Balague), and with the loss of a massively creative striker in Berba, Ramos seemed unsure of how to integrate Luka & Gio.

Ramos was sacked, and Clive Allen immediately showed that Modric, Huddlestone & JJ can play in the same team. I remain staggered that an astute coach like Ramos never tried this CM combination.

Fundamentally though, both Hoddle & Ramos appear to have lost the dressing room. And once that happens, the chairman either sells half-a-dozen key players or sacks the coach. And so the coach almost always gets the boot.

Roy Keane's most famous rant against Ferguson concerned that "fucking horse" - Magnier and McManus' Rock of Gibraltar. Fergie loves money (at one stage, most of manure's academy allegedly had to sign contracts with his son's agency), and he loves his nags. But Ferguson has always employed outstanding and tactically astute coaches from manure's academy through to their first team. Leaving Fergie's role as kicking boots at Beckham's head and applying the hairdryer when necessary.

I wouldn't mind 'Arry spending much of his time checking the racing form if he hired proper coaches. But the descriptions of Kevin Bond's coaching prowess fill me with gloom. And Joe Jordan may stare the players down, but I'm not sure how much more there is beyond the man of granite image. Every match, Clive Allen unfortunately seems a few seats further down the bench away from 'Arry....

It's true that no manager will have an A+ in all the various skills needed to be world class. But the best managers make sure they surround themselves with colleagues who complement their strengths and compensate for their weaknesses.

I suspect Donkey Adams organized 'Arry's defence for him at Pompey - so that was a good coaching appointment. Given his background at the FA, Tony Parks may prove a good goalkeeping coach for Gomes. I'm looking for more of these types of appointments and for 'Arry to show that he can mould our talented squad into a team that can consistently get the best out of the likes of Modric, Huddlestone and Bale.

Here's hoping. :beer:

Really good post. I completely take on board the "losing the dressing room" factor but this often puzzles me. On the pitch I didn't see any overt sign of players not trying. And "losing the dressing room" in this case appeared to me to be Bentley trying to justify some really woeful performances and take the heat off himself. Then following some dreadful personal mistakes against Udinese we had Woodgate's hypocritical and dissloyal "rudderless" rant, although I'm pretty sure that the rudderless question was beautifully teed up by the interviewer and woodgate was thinking more in line of on pitch lack of leadership.

The Ferguson comparison is also a very valid one. The difference being I think that Ferguson has always been a strict disciplinarian and far better at actually utilising the talent at his disposal. What he achieved at Aberdeen was in some ways as impressive as what he achieved with ManU.

I too was disapointed that Modric wasn't played in his best position by Ramos and said so at the time. I was also disapointed that he ignored Dos Santos after the first couple of games. Both he and Pav getting injured on the first couple of games didn't help. The treatment of Lee and Kaboul was also poor.

What Ramos tried to do though was instil a complete philosophy - a la wenger if you like - where no matter what you play football. Personally I liked it. I also liked the way that no player was safe - a la Jol - another sign of a good manager. I liked the fact that we looked fitter and from the time he took over seemed to believe we could beat anybody. Of course that seems ironic now.

 

[arnoldlayne]

Really good post. I completely take on board the "losing the dressing room" factor but this often puzzles me. On the pitch I didn't see any overt sign of players not trying. And "losing the dressing room" in this case appeared to me to be Bentley trying to justify some really woeful performances and take the heat off himself. Then following some dreadful personal mistakes against Udinese we had Woodgate's hypocritical and dissloyal "rudderless" rant, although I'm pretty sure that the rudderless question was beautifully teed up by the interviewer and woodgate was thinking more in line of on pitch lack of leadership.

The Ferguson comparison is also a very valid one. The difference being I think that Ferguson has always been a strict disciplinarian and far better at actually utilising the talent at his disposal. What he achieved at Aberdeen was in some ways as impressive as what he achieved with ManU.

I too was disapointed that Modric wasn't played in his best position by Ramos and said so at the time. I was also disapointed that he ignored Dos Santos after the first couple of games. Both he and Pav getting injured on the first couple of games didn't help. The treatment of Lee and Kaboul was also poor.

What Ramos tried to do though was instil a complete philosophy - a la wenger if you like - where no matter what you play football. Personally I liked it. I also liked the way that no player was safe - a la Jol - another sign of a good manager. I liked the fact that we looked fitter and from the time he took over seemed to believe we could beat anybody. Of course that seems ironic now.

Although many others don't I agree with you!

 

[SpurSince57]

I don't know why you think this bloke talks tosh but Redknapp doesn't ?

Because he's a chirpy fucker always ready with a quip. Bit of a geezers geezer.

I think you are typical of the type of person I aimed this thread at. When Ramos came in he achieved the same last year. Results picked up almost immediately. So he must be a confidence maestro too the eh ?
Ramos rarely played players out of position, but when he did I didn't like either. But Redknapp has done exactly the same. Bentley LW, Bent and Pav, Modric LM (not his best position), Huddlestone central in a 2.


I don't know why you say the article is a load of tosh. I and a couple of others were of exactly the same opinion despite have no axe to grind with him whatsoever. He inhererited all the talent young players at West Ham, added some really good players like Kanoute, Sinclair, DeCanio, Foe etc and did what with them ? Absoloutely fuck all. Pretty much the same with Pompey. He actually had one of the best defence and midfields in the EPL last season, but they were boring and but for the jammiest of cup runs would have achieved nothing but mid table mediocraty. That team should have been pushing the top 4. Same with the West Ham team. You have to ask yourself why ? Maybe because Redknapp has a deceent eye for the obviously good player, and can deliver great "your brilliant now go and fucking run about" motivational back slap but when it comes to training, coaching and tactics he's actually not very good.

What I believe is that more than anything Ramos suffered from the striker problem. An unfit, tired Pav needed to settle, and the most limited striker I've seen since Armstrong in Bent. We had no fulcrum for the passing attacking football that we were trying to play.

Getting 3/4 of a team to gel at the same time obviously didn't help. Then you had Bentley pl,aying like a **** and having to justify himself to the media. Not my fault, it must be the managers fault that I'm playing shit.

I believe that if we'd rode it out, sooner or later Pav would have acclimatised, we only had to string a handful of results together and what we'd have long term was so much better than what Redknapp's Racing post future offers us.

Tosh.

True, results did pick up under Ramos. We drew with Boro, enjoyed a goalfest against a pitifully poor Wigan, scraped another draw with the Spammers, lost to Birmingham, beat City (something rarely seen at the Lane), beat Pompey, lost to Arsenal, then had two more goalfests against sides in freefall, the latter of which could easily have gone the other way. Only beating Pompey and our perormance against Arsenal went against expectations. Doesn't quite compare with our recent turn-around, does it? And that was the high water mark of our league achievement under Ramos. A great CC run and silverware pulled from nowhere obscured that, as it did less than whelming UEFA performances.

Do you seriously believe we'd have come out of this recent sequence of games with 14 points if Levy had been crazy enough to keep faith with Ramos? Gus can go on about the players being a bit dim for all he's worth, but since by his own admission he didn't know what Ramos was up to half the time that rings a tad hollow. The final straw for me was their completely conflicting explanations of why we went one up front with Pav against Pompey.

I'm by no means convinced that Redknapp is the answer to a maiden's prayer. However, whether by luck, judgement or homespun motivational psychology, or a combination of all three, he's pulled us out of the shit Ramos got us into, so I don't particularly care. All of us swallowed the Ramos Revolution bullshit at one time or another; some of us just vomited it up sooner than others, that's all.

As for Clifford, since he drops a mention of his Brazilian Training School into virtually every other sentence it's pretty obvious what his agenda is.

 

[yanno]

Really good post. I completely take on board the "losing the dressing room" factor but this often puzzles me. On the pitch I didn't see any overt sign of players not trying. And "losing the dressing room" in this case appeared to me to be Bentley trying to justify some really woeful performances and take the heat off himself. Then following some dreadful personal mistakes against Udinese we had Woodgate's hypocritical and dissloyal "rudderless" rant, although I'm pretty sure that the rudderless question was beautifully teed up by the interviewer and woodgate was thinking more in line of on pitch lack of leadership.

I agree that "losing the dressing room" is an over-used phrase, and very difficult to prove. And I agree about the stupidity of Bentley's comments, and the strong possibility that Woodgate's professional post-match anger at a poor performance was taken out of context by journalists.

But but but....

I think a lot of our players felt very unsure about their places under Ramos, and whether the coach rated them.

Huddlestone is the obvious example. He is thriving under Redknapp. In truth, Tom is now experienced enough for a coach to say: "OK - you're going to play the next dozen games as first choice, with players who will enable you to show us whether you can use your passing ability and vision to dominate games." And, unless he gets injured, we will have a much better sense come next Spring whether Huddlestone is truly worthy of a CM place in a top EPL team.

Under Ramos, Huddlestone was a bit part player and often played like one.

Ramos' coaching style clearly motivated a generally very experienced group of players at Sevilla. I've seen Spanish newspaper reports that the Sevilla squad both respected and feared Juande. And that fear and respect produced some consistently excellent winning football.

I suspect many of our players also feared and respected Ramos. But this seemed to stifle their performances rather than leading them to play out of their skins in game after game.

At Sevilla, I don't think I ever saw the supposedly inconsistent Kanoute play badly. So, at some level, Ramos' man-management skills worked with Fredi.

The Ferguson comparison is also a very valid one. The difference being I think that Ferguson has always been a strict disciplinarian and far better at actually utilising the talent at his disposal. What he achieved at Aberdeen was in some ways as impressive as what he achieved with ManU.

Like Ramos, Ferguson is respected and feared by his players. And I totally agree about the disciplinarian element. But manure's players seem to respond to this. And he is publicly loyal and protective of his players, whilst quickly shipping out players he's decided aren't good enough or who have challenged his authority. Stam being the obvious example.

I too was disapointed that Modric wasn't played in his best position by Ramos and said so at the time. I was also disapointed that he ignored Dos Santos after the first couple of games. Both he and Pav getting injured on the first couple of games didn't help. The treatment of Lee and Kaboul was also poor.

What Ramos tried to do though was instil a complete philosophy - a la wenger if you like - where no matter what you play football. Personally I liked it. I also liked the way that no player was safe - a la Jol - another sign of a good manager. I liked the fact that we looked fitter and from the time he took over seemed to believe we could beat anybody. Of course that seems ironic now.

I agree with all of that. But I do think it would have been very hard for Ramos to turn around our early season slide.

I wouldn't be at all surprized if Juande is a big success at his next Spanish club (Atletico Madrid?). However, once a coach loses their aura of respect and infallibility with a particular squad of players, it's very hard for him to get it back with those very same footballers.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Tosh.

True, results did pick up under Ramos. We drew with Boro, enjoyed a goalfest against a pitifully poor Wigan, scraped another draw with the Spammers, lost to Birmingham, beat City (something rarely seen at the Lane), beat Pompey, lost to Arsenal, then had two more goalfests against sides in freefall, the latter of which could easily have gone the other way. Only beating Pompey and our perormance against Arsenal went against expectations. Doesn't quite compare with our recent turn-around, does it? And that was the high water mark of our league achievement under Ramos. A great CC run and silverware pulled from nowhere obscured that, as it did less than whelming UEFA performances.

Do you seriously believe we'd have come out of this recent sequence of games with 14 points if Levy had been crazy enough to keep faith with Ramos? Gus can go on about the players being a bit dim for all he's worth, but since by his own admission he didn't know what Ramos was up to half the time that rings a tad hollow. The final straw for me was their completely conflicting explanations of why we went one up front with Pav against Pompey.

I'm by no means convinced that Redknapp is the answer to a maiden's prayer. However, whether by luck, judgement or homespun motivational psychology, or a combination of all three, he's pulled us out of the shit Ramos got us into, so I don't particularly care. All of us swallowed the Ramos Revolution bullshit at one time or another; some of us just vomited it up sooner than others, that's all.

As for Clifford, since he drops a mention of his Brazilian Training School into virtually every other sentence it's pretty obvious what his agenda is.

I bow to your superior knowledge in this field.

 

[SpurSince57]

About bloody time. :grin:

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I agree that "losing the dressing room" is an over-used phrase, and very difficult to prove. And I agree about the stupidity of Bentley's comments, and the strong possibility that Woodgate's professional post-match anger at a poor performance was taken out of context by journalists.

But but but....

I think a lot of our players felt very unsure about their places under Ramos, and whether the coach rated them.

Is that a bad thing ? Was Ferguson ever scared to drop anyone ?

Huddlestone is the obvious example. He is thriving under Redknapp. In truth, Tom is now experienced enough for a coach to say: "OK - you're going to play the next dozen games as first choice, with players who will enable you to show us whether you can use your passing ability and vision to dominate games." And, unless he gets injured, we will have a much better sense come next Spring whether Huddlestone is truly worthy of a CM place in a top EPL team.

Under Ramos, Huddlestone was a bit part player and often played like one.

To be honest Yanno, I understand the Huddlestine dilema completely. He's had probably 100 games for us now, and before that he'd had 100+ championship games. I am thoroughly unconvinced by him. Great technique and passing ability when he has time and space. When he doesn't his passing becomes no better than jenas or Zokora's and the rest of his game is worse.

For me he cannot play in a four midfield. That simple. He was awful against Fulham and Blackburn until they went a man down.

Ramos' coaching style clearly motivated a generally very experienced group of players at Sevilla. I've seen Spanish newspaper reports that the Sevilla squad both respected and feared Juande. And that fear and respect produced some consistently excellent winning football.

I suspect many of our players also feared and respected Ramos. But this seemed to stifle their performances rather than leading them to play out of their skins in game after game.

This is where I fundamentally disagree and am almost alone on here it seems. I thought we lacked goals mainly, but not performance or effort. I tried to show this with my stats on the opening page.

At Sevilla, I don't think I ever saw the supposedly inconsistent Kanoute play badly so at some level, Ramos' man-management skills worked with Fredi.



Like Ramos, Ferguson is respected and feared by his players. And I totally agree about the disciplinarian element. But manure's players seem to respond to this. And he is publicly loyal and protective of his players, whilst quickly shipping out players he's decided aren't good enough or who have challenged his authority. Stam being the obvious example.

On these occasions though it all comes down the backing of the board. Once players know they aren't going to come out on top the managers job is so much easier. I do appreciate though that's it's a hell of a lot easier to back a multi trophy winning Fergy than 12 month CC winning Ramos.
I would of though, crazy fool that am.

I agree with all of that. But I do think it would have been very hard for Ramos to turn around our early season slide.

64 million dollar question (literally) eh ? I think so, but I would say that wouldn't I ?

I wouldn't be at all surprized if Juande is a big success at his next Spanish club (Atletico Madrid?). However, once a coach loses their aura of respect and infallibility with a particular squad of players, it's very hard for him to get it back with those very same footballers.

Agreed

 

[Rackybear]

To be honest I was worried before reading this. But this article sums up why perfectly.

I also saw that my old friend Harry Redknapp has enjoyed initial success at Tottenham Hotspur. I think he saw the writing was on the wall at Portsmouth, who had spent heavily in the hunt for success, and I think he was already looking for a way out. He’s now got millions of pounds worth of talent at his disposal – Mickey Mouse, if put in charge of that team, would enjoy success there, and I think Juande Ramos’ failings came down to a lack of communication and the player’s failing to respond foreign coaching methods and ideas.


If there’s one thing that Harry is good at, it’s working with players that are earning high salaries. People say that Harry can work on a budget and work his magic in the transfer market, and his great genius is having friends who are agents who get to the good players first and working with chairmen who are willing to pay the extortionate salaries that these players demand.
My abiding memory of Harry when we were working at Southampton is him sitting at his desk reading either The Sun or The Racing Post and it said everything to me when he appointed Kevin Bond as his assistant manager. Kevin’s a lovely man. On the training field, I’ve probably never seen anybody worse. Last year he got Bournemouth relegated and was forced to leave Newcastle yet there he is sat next to Harry at Tottenham Hotspur. People say that Harry did well at West Ham in bringing through the young players, but this was completely down to the academy director at the time, Tony Carr, who gets little credit.
Harry once said to me that he didn’t believe in coaching; he believed that you’re either born a good player or you’re not. It therefore makes more sense to me that he has employed Kevin Bond as his assistant. I mentioned to Harry that he should have a look at the Pro Zone statistics when we were at Southampton, which showed that in the first-half of games we were second in the table but in the second we were third-bottom, and I questioned the team’s fitness. I resigned on the Tuesday, and on the Saturday Southampton went into a 3-0 lead against Leeds United and then lost the game 4-3. I always remember Harry’s remarks to me weeks before that match, which were that he had never seen a computer win a football match.

Tbh, this is one persons view.

What about all the players that praise the effect Redknapp has had on them, and all the good things they have to say about him.

As far as im concerned those views completely and unanimously outweigh those of this clifford guy, who is among a very few that had bad words to say about harry.

Like SS57 said, its clear he has something to get of his chest and it seems like a personal vendetta against Redknapp more then anything else? Maybe something to do with the fact that he has ended up at a big club whilst he was falling out with our current manager at southampton :shrug:

Smells like jealousy...

Regarding Redknapp, I dont honestly think he has the managerial credentials to crack the top 4 with spurs. But I do know that things have changed since his arrival, and our performances have quite evidently improved regardless of shots on target stats and such.

Long may it continue, we will soon learn of his deficiencies in managing a top club with aspirations, then we will evaluate his weaknesses, but right now - he isn't doing much wrong, keeping things simple, winning games and putting a smile on spurs fans faces.

:up:

 

[Bristol Coys]

For all the the stats in the first post i'm surprised this thread got much beyond the stats that count:

08/09 ------WIN --- LOSS --- DRAW
Ramos ----- 17% ---58% -----15%
Redknapp -- 75% ---17.5% ---12.5%

That's pretty much all we can examine at the moment. At the end of the season we can take a step back and see how Redknapp has done but as for Ramos, I previously wrote this post on the virtue of continuity and I think some of it applies now:

So Rednapp is not as good as Ramos at getting draws.
Surely he has to go. :wink:

Its a little early to quote stats yet. Maybe after 20 games.