The new under 21 League - starting 2012/13

boy-C

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Thread starter #1
Personally i think we should have one, but the new manager should have a big say in the system and style they play so that fringe/out of favour players can get used to what we are trying to achieve with how the first team play, so when they are dropped in the deep end they have a better chance of fitting in.
I don't really care how successful it is, i just think it would be a usefull tool for keeping players fit and sharper who aren't getting much game time in the first team. (We can still loan players out aswell)

What are peoples opinions on reintroducing a spurs reserve team for the new season?
 

ohh Teddy Teddy

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#2
Isn't there a change in the reserve league structure this season or is it next season? It's going to be an U21 league instead. Personally i'd rather keep doing what we are doing and only arrange games when we need too.
 

N17Jack

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#3
We have had our most successful run in the premier league since we abandoned a reserve team, I guess that is an answer in its self
 

only1waddle

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#4
Personally i think we should have one, but the new manager should have a big say in the system and style they play so that fringe/out of favour players can get used to what we are trying to achieve with how the first team play, so when they are dropped in the deep end they have a better chance of fitting in.
I don't really care how successful it is, i just think it would be a usefull tool for keeping players fit and sharper who aren't getting much game time in the first team. (We can still loan players out aswell)

What are peoples opinions on reintroducing a spurs reserve team for the new season?
Agreed, i said similar in the AVB thread, reserve team needs bringing back if a definitive style of play is introduced as all players will get used to the tactics.
It will be a good grounding for the youth players to play with some first team players and then transition into the full squad/ first 11 much easier, plus the squad should then have more like for like players..
I think Brendan Rodgers will do this at Liverpool but go a step further, have the Youth, Reserves and First team playing his way, hell even the under 9s will play his way, and maybe the person who cleans the bogs will do it in triangles...
 

dk-yid

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#5
Our results have been quite good without them and I personally think our youngsters got more experience going out on loan.
I see the whole point of all the teams playing the same style but if our best 'reserves' are not getting properly tested in competitive football I doubt they'll develop as much. Would Caulker have developed without going out on loan? Would Walker? I doubt it to be honest.
 

eddiebailey

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#6
Having a reserve team and loaning players is not an either/or choice. We have huge playing staff and comfortably send a dozen players on loan and still field a respectable reserve team.

Yes, Caulker and Button gained more from being loan than playing in a reserve league, but Luongo and Lancaster probably gained less playing in training ground friendlies.

And actually did the loans for Carroll or Falque really do much for their development?
 

only1waddle

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#7
Our results have been quite good without them and I personally think our youngsters got more experience going out on loan.
I see the whole point of all the teams playing the same style but if our best 'reserves' are not getting properly tested in competitive football I doubt they'll develop as much. Would Caulker have developed without going out on loan? Would Walker? I doubt it to be honest.
I am all for the youth going out on loan, much needed game time and important to their development.
A combination of the two would work in my opinion, i am adement that a reserve team playing the same structure and tactics would be positive in the long term.
 

Dinghy

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#8
FFS we have always had a reserve team. We just pulled out of the reserve league.
 

mill

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#9
Spurs Idol impart some knowledge on the upcoming reserve team situation, you're the king on these subjects
 

Spursidol

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#10
Spurs Idol impart some knowledge on the upcoming reserve team situation, you're the king on these subjects
Your wish is my command - except when we talk about the blonde with the big............. etc :D

As I was saying, the Premiership clubs have all agreed that the 'old' Reserve league did not work for the majority of teams - it was not competitive enough for young players, some teams treated it as a place to give game time to non playing players in their 25 man squad or injured players etc - all the reasons why Spurs left about 3 years ago and several other Premiership teams have followed.

The agreed Premiership way forward is an under 21 League with (probably) up to 3 over 21''s involved. The original (unannounced) plan was to start in 2013/14, followed by rumours (from seeming authoratitive sources) of a start in 2012/13. There is a logic to 2012/13 in particular there are links to the Elite Player Performance Plan (EPPP), however to date there has been no published decisions to when the 'new' under 21 league will be launched. We need to wait - although a decision on the start date before say mid August must be logical.

Without competing in a Reserve League, Spurs have both fielded a Spurs X1 team in ad hoc matches (usualy more frequent than the 'old' reserve matches) as well as loaning out players. The Spurs X1 matches have worked well as often it is clear that opposing coaches have agreed the standard of the match to be played (eg mainly 18 year old or 19 year olds etc). Whilst Spurs loans worked well in 2010/11 they worked less well in 2011/12 - I am of the opinion that there are now too many Premiership clubs trying to loan out their youngsters (if you think of it Spurs have had maybe 20 players out on loan - amd there are 19 other Premiership clubs plus Championship clubs trying to loan out players ?!) - IMO the market is saturated !

There are advantages and disadvantages to both an organised 'Reserve' league and an ad hoc Spurs X1 programme and/or loan system, which are well understood, but coming back to individual players maybe Ryan Mason (with his recent injury record), Dean Parrett (with injuries but also not a star out oin loan) and others may benefit from the closer attentions of the club competing in an under 21 league versus a loan.

Once the new under 21 league kicks in, with an increased number of Professionals now numbering approximately 30, IMO, Spurs will follow all routes to provide playing time to 18-21 year olds includimg :

1 Under 21 League
2 Spurs X1 ad hc matches
3 Loans - but maybe for say 12 players so that the loanee and loaning club can be better matched
4 Domestic cups - ie Spurs play a youth centric side in these competitions. Similarly Europa League whilost Spurs are in it !

With some 30 players in that crucial 18 to 21 age group this is not too many ways to give those players game time - especially if you consider that at Academy level with 2 year groups of 15 ( ie 30 players in total) there will be a temptation for older players to be promoted - so rather than just 30 'Professiona' players there may well be an extra 10-15 Academy players to play in these matches !
 

StartingPrice

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#11
Good summary, SI.
I think the new Under 21 League idea would suit the aim of integrating squads through age groups to facilitate players moving up through them in preparation for the 1st team squad, and coordinating playing style. So, yes, as long as the games are competitive, the club(s) being able to keep a closer eye on young players will probably be a good thing. But I also agree that sometimes, like with players like Walker, Caulker and Naughton, getting 1st team experience, especially in the Prem is surely the best way to assess their ultimate suitibility at that level.
 

Spursidol

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#12
Interesting news from Chelsea's web site http://www.chelseafc.com/page/LatestNews/0,,10268~2845178,00.html.

The under 21 league is definitely starting in 2012/13 (this coming season), with Chelsea in a group of Manchester City, Fulham, Wolves, Middlesbrough and Crystal Palace, with what are known as derby games against Arsenal and Spurs also to be arranged.

All Premiership sides (poossibly excluding the 3 without Category 1 Academy Status - Wigan, QPR and Swansea) are mandated to play in the under 21 league plus any clubs who have achieved Category 1 status for their academies - so it appears that Wolves, Fulham, Middlesborough and Crystal Palace have achieved category 1 status - earlier suggestions were that only a handful were likely to achieve it but assuming that the 'handful' are not just in this one group it appears more football league sides have achieved Category 1 than forecast (edit : I hear its 6 football league sides who have achieved Category 1 Academy Status).

No news on Spurs OS, hope to see some in due course.

However, what I would hope to see is a list of pre-season fixtures to gel the squad together - and indeed formally appoint a coach (is Sherwood going to do both under 19 NextGen series and the under 21 League or was Steffen Freund appointed with this in mind, or has a coach still to be appointed ?)

With an under 21 League in 2012./13 this means we will rediuce the number of loans made in 2012/13 (no bad thing, we can better match the player and club), as many more of the youth will have meaningful games in the under 21 league plus opportunities in Europa League.
 

Spursidol

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#13
Thought it might be useful to list the players who could be involved in this league (excluding any over age players who might be allowed) :

Listed as Professionals on OS :

Jiordan Archer goalkeeper (likely Loan to League 1 or 2)
Jonathan Miles goalkeeper

Nathan Byrne Defender/midfield
Jack Barthram Full Back
Kevin Stewart CB/LB/RB
William Ekong CB (now 3rd yearAcademy)

John Bostock Midfield
Thomas Carroll Midfield
Cristian Ceballos Midfield
Ryan Fredericks Winger
Massimo Luongo Midfield
Ryan Mason Attacking Midfield
Giancarlo Gallifuoco CB/centre midfield
Jake Nicholson Midfield/CB
Dean Parrett Midfield
Alex Pritchard Midfield
Jack Munns Midfield

Harry Kane Striker
Cameron Lancaster Striker

Additionally there are a few players whose status is unclear as OS not updated since joining (in some cases a year ago - hint hint to OS !)

Lawrence Vigouroux - Goalkeeper
Milos Veljkovic - CB/centre midfield
Nabil Bentaleb - central/attacking midfield
Tomislav Gomelt - midfield/striker
Soulymane Coulibaly - striker

So in total there are about 2 dozen players, of whom I would guess 6 - 10 might be loaned out, but before other young players may be recruited.

Plus there are the 15 players in the (new) Academy Year 2, a number of whom would aspire to play in the under 21's in the coming season - whilst these may also play in u 19 NextGen Series tournament.

Its a decent sized squad which requires training together to get the best out of the under 21 league !
 

eddiebailey

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#14
You seem to have missed Button, Smith and Obika, and when I checked the OS just now this year's academy promotions are not on there but Alnwick, Jansson, Ranieri and Oyenuga have reappeared!
 

Spursidol

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#15
You seem to have missed Button, Smith and Obika, and when I checked the OS just now this year's academy promotions are not on there but Alnwick, Jansson, Ranieri and Oyenuga have reappeared!
Alnwick and co must have boomerangs ! However although they are back, all the pictures and bios are not there - I assume its a site update screwup.

Button is 22, Obika 21 last September, so unlikely to meet under 21 rules which are usually based on age at 1 January 2012, but plead guilty to not including Adam Smith (20) (and indeed Stephen Caulker (20) - although unlikely he will play) !
 
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