The Rugby Thread

[Arnoldtoo]

I'm going for NZ to win by 15

I hoped I was being pessimistic, but we were lucky to get that close.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Itoje was good when he came on. Large grunts at lock won't disrupt the all blacks. Athleticism is the way IMO

Retallick gave a masterclass today

Well I think we have to try that but I don't think it will work.

Anyone know if Davies can play 12? He was excellent today but we need a try scorer in the team and for me that means JJ.

I'd stick with the back three as I don't think anyone else offers more in terms of attacking threat.

If we're going 'Athletic' do we then drop POM and bring in Stander? Front three of Mako, George and Sink?

I don't know. I suspect it won't make a difference.

 

[littlewilly]

I think the Lions need to revert to a more traditional power-based forward/kicking game. It's the only way they'll compete with NZ. It's a folly to try this short, intricate passing game - the Lions just don't quite have the skills. They should have scored in the opening stanza and we could have seen a quite different game unfold. CJ and Itoje as starters for me.

 

[mpickard2087]

I think the Lions need to revert to a more traditional power-based forward/kicking game. It's the only way they'll compete with NZ. It's a folly to try this short, intricate passing game - the Lions just don't quite have the skills. They should have scored in the opening stanza and we could have seen a quite different game unfold. CJ and Itoje as starters for me.

Exactly. Kick for territory, and get it off the park. Kruis/Itoje/POM can pressure the lineout, we saw today that it can be got at, and then better linespeed in defence to get at them and put the squeeze on. They might go from deep and score, fair play to them, or we might strangle the life out of them and win the ball back in good areas. Who knows, but territory first and then build from there.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I think the Lions need to revert to a more traditional power-based forward/kicking game. It's the only way they'll compete with NZ. It's a folly to try this short, intricate passing game - the Lions just don't quite have the skills. They should have scored in the opening stanza and we could have seen a quite different game unfold. CJ and Itoje as starters for me.

Do you really see is overpowering them though? I think today showed conclusively not.

Our lineout collection was excellent but we couldn't drive it anywhere.

Our scrum was okay but never made any yards.

I don't think power will work.

 

[E17yid]

The first 5-10mins of the second half were key. We made a great break, got within a couple of yards of their try line (which you're not going to get often so you have to walk away with points when you do) and Murray drops the ball at the base of the ruck, gets turned over, NZ clear their lines. Then you add in Kruis not timing his jump to lose a 5m libeout ( the only other time we got to a few yards out in the 2nd half) and we lose the ball, NZ clear their lines. Then we're attacking their 10m line and Sexton puts in a poor pass to Farrel, we lose the ball, NZ clear their lines but this time a poor error from Williams costs us 7 points. All from their 10m line.

Yeah, there were other areas we were 2nd best in but cut out that stupid shit, especially at the start of the second half, and it could've been a different result.

 

[littlewilly]

Do you really see is overpowering them though? I think today showed conclusively not.

Our lineout collection was excellent but we couldn't drive it anywhere.

Our scrum was okay but never made any yards.

I don't think power will work.

You either spread it wide (and play into the ABs hands) or look for forward drive over many phases with some cute kicking. The Lions scored a great try and that might have signalled a false dawn. The tight five must be allowed to play to their strengths.

 

[littlewilly]

I was disappointed with Kruis today and so will he be. I hope they persist with him.

 

[SugarRay]

Well I think we have to try that but I don't think it will work.

Anyone know if Davies can play 12? He was excellent today but we need a try scorer in the team and for me that means JJ.

I'd stick with the back three as I don't think anyone else offers more in terms of attacking threat.

If we're going 'Athletic' do we then drop POM and bring in Stander? Front three of Mako, George and Sink?

I don't know. I suspect it won't make a difference.

Athletic second row was my meaning mate. Sink wouldn't hold up in the scrum IMO. The thing is, Lawes and Itoje are athletic but also possess enough physicality too.

I think people don't realise how difficult a Lions tour to NZ is

 

[SugarRay]

The first 5-10mins of the second half were key. We made a great break, got within a couple of yards of their try line (which you're not going to get often so you have to walk away with points when you do) and Murray drops the ball at the base of the ruck, gets turned over, NZ clear their lines. Then you add in Kruis not timing his jump to lose a 5m libeout ( the only other time we got to a few yards out in the 2nd half) and we lose the ball, NZ clear their lines. Then we're attacking their 10m line and Sexton puts in a poor pass to Farrel, we lose the ball, NZ clear their lines but this time a poor error from Williams costs us 7 points. All from their 10m line.

Yeah, there were other areas we were 2nd best in but cut out that stupid shit, especially at the start of the second half, and it could've been a different result.

Fine margins. The all blacks made a few mistakes but we didn't capitalise like they did on ours. Momentum changes immediately and it's suddenly game over

 

[talkshowhost86]

Athletic second row was my meaning mate. Sink wouldn't hold up in the scrum IMO. The thing is, Lawes and Itoje are athletic but also possess enough physicality too.

I think people don't realise how difficult a Lions tour to NZ is

I think people do realise how difficult it is.

I don't think anyone is really to blame for that defeat. NZ are just the better team.

 

[SugarRay]

I think the Lions need to revert to a more traditional power-based forward/kicking game. It's the only way they'll compete with NZ. It's a folly to try this short, intricate passing game - the Lions just don't quite have the skills. They should have scored in the opening stanza and we could have seen a quite different game unfold. CJ and Itoje as starters for me.

I can't agree with Stander ( he is no way British or Irish ) but you're spot on.

Territory is the key. Pressure the set piece in their half then if and when chances come we have the back 3 to produce

 

[mpickard2087]

Fine margins. The all blacks made a few mistakes but we didn't capitalise like they did on ours. Momentum changes immediately and it's suddenly game over

I'd say actually our best moments came from running back and punishing turnover ball/errors/loose kicks. If there was one thing we did do well it was broken field running and picking out mismatches in the defensive line and NZ noticeably tightened up the game about 50 mins in and played much more carefully in respect of this. We didn't really have much ball through phases and build attacks.

 

[nightgoat]

Despite the score there are some positives for the Lions. Ultimately it's game management that's the key factor. You can't expect to win test matches with such a small amount of territory and possession, but from what ball they had, they still created opportunities, just didn't finish them.

Jones and Kruis' places will be under threat now as neither were particularly effective and Itoje as expected had a good impact off the bench. Murray wasn't great and Webb will have put himself in contention with his cameo, and Williams' error in the second half will probably be admonished by his break in the first - and you have to give him credit for seeing the space and exploiting it to create the platform for the try, although it was Daly making a fool of Barrett and the excellent support running of Davies and O'Brien that made it.

The front row were all good, as was Sinckler off the bench, the line out was totally solid until George went off. Te'o's impact was minimal, having impressed on tour so far. He was far too Warrenball when all the Lions' good attacking play came from breaks, good hands and quick offloads, something Joseph would thrive on. Sexton's kicking from hand was very good, but otherwise wasn't great.

Hopefully in the second test we'll have more of a platform to gain possession and territory by New Zealand not being allowed to constantly enter rucks from the side, clear out Lions from offside positions and dive right over the ruck.

 

[E17yid]

See, I think Te'o did well and should have stayed on. We looked weaker when he went off and you could see Sonny Bill was loving it when he put Farrel at 12. He was like, look where I'm going to run with this. George should have come off 10-15 mins earlier and it was a silly time to bring Owens on. Likewise, I don't know on what planet Kruis stays on the pitch there, he was having a bit of a nightmare.

Webb has to start next week and to be honest i'd drop Kruis from the 23 and start AWJ and Itoje with Lawes on the bench. Other than that I don't think we need wholesale changes, Watson and Daly were good and should keep their place along with Williams who, other than that bad drop, played well.

We weren't good at the breakdown in defence or attack today and POM and SOB did ok today but we need Tipuricin there imo to win us more ball but still offer that agility and dynamism.

I would like to see:

Vunipola
Owens
Furlong
Itoje
AWJ
POM
Tipuric
Faletau
Webb
Farrell
Daly
Te'o
Davies
Watson
Williams

McGrath, George, Sinkler, Lawes, Warburton, Murray, Sexton, Halfpenny

Goes without saying that I'd like Gatland to use this Hurricanes game in the same way as the Chiefs and if there are some stellar performances on Tuesday then I'd be happy to amend my team. No way do I think Gatland makes that many changes, though. Probably AWJ for Itoje and that's it

 

[E17yid]

Are you going to share the joke with the rest of the class, @nightgoat

 

[mpickard2087]

I have just been watching the game again, as when I visited my parents my dad was catching up with the game after being out all morning. Some extra thoughts:

The forwards will be disappointed, individually and collectively. We didn't win the arm wrestle, made no headway in the scrum, were definitely second best at the break down, and no player got the better of his opposite number (from 1-8 it was basically in NZ's favour). The only area we had joy was the lineout. I don't think they can be that bad again, but it was a reason for the struggle. Our backs/attacking play didn't really do much after that opening break in terms of creating chances from phase play and patient build up, but Davies + the back three worked wonders off counter attacking ball and broken field play.

Defence was also patchy, as I said earlier. Started well first 10 minutes with good linespeed, NZ put some phases together and marched forward and then we lost confidence and became more passive. Picked it up again at the start of the second half and had our best spell, and then reverted back to being passive and we need a greater intensity across 80 mins.

Individually quite a mixed bag.

Mako didn't have his best game round the park, at the breakdown etc, and didn't carry too well. Ditto for George. Furlong much the same but probably a little better. AWJ took a head knock about 20 mins in, after that the game just passed him by - should he have been out there at all after that you'd have to question...? Kruis was trying, but couldn't make an impact apart from lineout and made three bad errors in contact and had a bad game. POM was good in the lineout, average around the park. SOB finished off a great try but didn't do enough at the breakdown or around the park. Faletau put in a lot of effort making tackles, didn't really have much impact carrying.

Murray started well with some good box kicks, faded and no running game makes him predictable and easy to contain if his team is on the back foot.. Farrell didn't have a great game at all, no direction or control and some poor passes. Te'o did what he does quite well, runs hard and tackles hard, but never passes. JD had a good game with ball in hand and showed composure. Watson had a pretty good game. Daly had some nice touches but ropey in defence at times and I don't think he should have been so narrow for the opening try. Ditto for Williams who had the sublime (the break for the try) with the not so (completely failing to gather the ball for the last try). The bench wasn't brilliant, Itoje was the standout for the intensity and impact he brought. Apart from that Webb sniped for a try at the end close in, Sinckler had one run... The rest offered very little.

 

[E17yid]

I have just been watching the game again, as when I visited my parents my dad was catching up with the game after being out all morning. Some extra thoughts:

The forwards will be disappointed, individually and collectively. We didn't win the arm wrestle, made no headway in the scrum, were definitely second best at the break down, and no player got the better of his opposite number (from 1-8 it was basically in NZ's favour). The only area we had joy was the lineout. I don't think they can be that bad again, but it was a reason for the struggle. Our backs/attacking play didn't really do much after that opening break in terms of creating chances from phase play and patient build up, but Davies + the back three worked wonders off counter attacking ball and broken field play.

Defence was also patchy, as I said earlier. Started well first 10 minutes with good linespeed, NZ put some phases together and marched forward and then we lost confidence and became more passive. Picked it up again at the start of the second half and had our best spell, and then reverted back to being passive and we need a greater intensity across 80 mins.

Individually quite a mixed bag.

Mako didn't have his best game round the park, at the breakdown etc, and didn't carry too well. Ditto for George. Furlong much the same but probably a little better. AWJ took a head knock about 20 mins in, after that the game just passed him by - should he have been out there at all after that you'd have to question...? Kruis was trying, but couldn't make an impact apart from lineout and made three bad errors in contact and had a bad game. POM was good in the lineout, average around the park. SOB finished off a great try but didn't do enough at the breakdown or around the park. Faletau put in a lot of effort making tackles, didn't really have much impact carrying.

Murray started well with some good box kicks, faded and no running game makes him predictable and easy to contain if his team is on the back foot.. Farrell didn't have a great game at all, no direction or control and some poor passes. Te'o did what he does quite well, runs hard and tackles hard, but never passes. JD had a good game with ball in hand and showed composure. Watson had a pretty good game. Daly had some nice touches but ropey in defence at times and I don't think he should have been so narrow for the opening try. Ditto for Williams who had the sublime (the break for the try) with the not so (completely failing to gather the ball for the last try). The bench wasn't brilliant, Itoje was the standout for the intensity and impact he brought. Apart from that Webb sniped for a try at the end close in, Sinckler had one run... The rest offered very little.

Yeah, pretty much how I saw it. Front row wasn't great, back row didn't really get into the game and the less said about the 2nd row the better. I think Te'o, in defence offered a lot. I know you're a fan of Farrel at 12 but the game changed for the worse when Te'o came off but I need to watch it again.

 

[E17yid]

South Africa v France on now.

 

[mpickard2087]

I also saw a good discussion in the week about the differences between NZ and the Northern Hemisphere. The argument was that they do not compromise on pace or ball skills -catching/passing etc. In B+ I teams a player might not have these skills but will still get picked for offering something - Scrummaging, lineouts, big tackles, breakdown work, place kicking, physicality - You name it. For them those two skills are non-negotiable, they'll sacrifice a bit and work on those other areas, just so that everyone has those basics - run, catch, pass. Of course, by the time you're at the top level those other skills aren't too far behind either...

Let's be honest, how often do our teams pick scrum halves who cant crisply pass the ball. Or fly halves who cant run and/or pass that well. Or centres who don't pass. Or steady wings who don't really have top end pace. That's before we even get to what the forwards can do...

Look at their first try earlier, could you imagine a Dylan Hartley, Rory Best et al take the ball at ankle height without breaking stride and zipping over in the corner not giving the opposite winger a sniff? In some alternate universe maybe. There is a reason Ben Te'o was never on the radar of the NZ system, he is a 2D player - runs hard, tackles hard, pass... nope. I suspect if NZ had a choice of our players they'd be more likely to go for someone like Tipuric in the backrow or a George Ford or Finn Russell at fly half than the selections that are made.

Also linked to that are the body shapes of players. I don't see many NZ forwards carrying those extra pounds and extra layer of padding, like their counterparts. There's also a lot of Lions players with gym monkey physiques. I cant help but think that NZ players are out there more working on skills and letting what they do on the training pitch get them toughened up and conditioned for elite rugby...