The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

[Locotoro]

I’d play him against Wimbledon and take it from there. Maybe try to find him a PL club.

All this talk of Poch not giving youth a chance compared with his Espanyol and even Southampton days has lost all sense of context.
Look at where we are in the footballing hierarchy. We are a Champions League club right now. Espanyol and Southampton were not. In order to bring through youth into the first team squad those players have to be a step up from what we needed previously. I'd expect the ratio of youth players deemed good enough to diminish the better we got that's just logical.

Of the players in our squad who could comfortably be replaced by youth players i can think of only one and that'd be Sissoko for Onomah (at a push - because they still don't give you the same thing). All the rest of our current options are better than what we're producing so I can't really understand the criticism of Poch.

 

[IGSpur]

All this talk of Poch not giving youth a chance compared with his Espanyol and even Southampton days has lost all sense of context.
Look at where we are in the footballing hierarchy. We are a Champions League club right now. Espanyol and Southampton were not. In order to bring through youth into the first team squad those players have to be a step up from what we needed previously. I'd expect the ratio of youth players deemed good enough to diminish the better we got that's just logical.

Of the players in our squad who could comfortably be replaced by youth players i can think of only one and that'd be Sissoko for Onomah (at a push - because they still don't give you the same thing). All the rest of our current options are better than what we're producing so I can't really understand the criticism of Poch.

One a season isn't a lot no matter where you are competing in the table, if they are good enough. Onomah instead of Sissoko, Edwards instead of N'Koudou, KWP? could all be getting chances no?

Either way Thiago, Messi, Iniesta, Xavi Sergi Roberto, Busquets, Tello, Pedro, Motta are players that all came through Barcelona when they were competing for titles and Champions Leagues.

Munich brought through Alaba, Kroos, Schweinsteiger, Muller and Lahm when they were competing for the CL and titles. This you can't bring through academy players as you're competing for things, though they are under even more pressure than us, is an English/PL mentality. The 'can't rely on youth, they crack under pressure' talk.

I don't for one second expect him to be doing what he did at Espanyol here, but when he isn't even doing as well as his PL rivals I feel that is a different argument.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Game that always stands out in my memory is that game at WHL when we beat the (champions elect) Blackburn, with Sheringham, Barmby and Klinsman tearing them apart.

 

[IGSpur]

I understand the concerns but have you read the book? If not I recommend it. Youth is like THE recurring theme along with being 'Brave' and you'd probably find some of the passages on youth football interesting

Not read it, but had a lot of people post snippets and tell me about it. I should read it at some point as it does sound interesting

Levy also talks about how him and poch joke how if it was left to poch we'd never sign players and Levy has to push poch to buy players sometimes (sounds crazy I know) using to example of Dier in summer 2015 when all of pochs coaching staff and levy wanted to sign a CDM but poch choose to move dier there instead. Now you can say Levy is in on the act to pretend poch cares about youth but I'm going to trust that the whole book isn't just a lie.

I don't see how anyone can believe this is true though, if anything I'd be more inclined to believe Levy is the one, who would rather he use the academy since he invested so much in it. I don't believe, that if Poch had is way, we wouldn't sign anyone. Even if Levy is the one pushing Poch to sign these players you would think if someone was so insistent on using academy players and so believing in them, that he would still find a way to fit them in. Yet he has only brought one through. You expect me to believe that if in 4 years if Poch had done what he wanted the only change we would have seen in the squad is the inclusion of Winks. You honestly believe that if Poch genuinely believe in the use of the academy and suggested to Levy that he believed Onomah the so called 'special player' was better than Sissoko and he would rather use him, Levy would force him to spend 30m on a player Poch didn't think was useful? How could anyone believe it when the evidence completely suggests otherwise.

Maybe the only way to solve this is to wait a year though and see what happens, if KWP isn't rotating fullback with aurier, Edwards is no closer to the first team and maybe one more player close to the set up then I'll be disappointed as well but I really think circumstances haven't fallen right so far and there are a multitude of individual reasons why players haven't broken through because as you say it's obviously tougher to bring players through here and if one tiny thing isn't right it may be counterproductive

A lot of managers don't get as much time in one club as Poch has so I was hoping for more. I thought there were times he could have given Onomah EL minutes, but was told squad players like Paulinho and Capoue needed opportunities.

Was told at the start of the 15/16 season that due to a lot changes in the squad it was hard to introduce players. We're now over 2 years on from then and only Winks has come through, and to wait another year for a very precise set of circumstances to fall into place before anyone else can get a chance, before we can judge again. This for a man who's determined to give academy players a chance. Very very conservative and risk averse behaviour for someone who apparently seeks out using a youngster first. I don't buy it at all. I'll let the evidence speak for him. But as usual I will continue to wait to repay everyone's faith.

 

[Blake Griffin]

I don't see how anyone can believe this is true though, if anything I'd be more inclined to believe Levy is the one, who would rather he use the academy since he invested so much in it. I don't believe, that if Poch had is way, we wouldn't sign anyone. Even if Levy is the one pushing Poch to sign these players you would think if someone was so insistent on using academy players and so believing in them, that he would still find a way to fit them in. Yet he has only brought one through. You expect me to believe that if in 4 years if Poch had done what he wanted the only change we would have seen in the squad is the inclusion of Winks. You honestly believe that if Poch genuinely believe in the use of the academy and suggested to Levy that he believed Onomah the so called 'special player' was better than Sissoko and he would rather use him, Levy would force him to spend 30m on a player Poch didn't think was useful? How could anyone believe it when the evidence completely suggests otherwise.

agree, makes no sense.

as i said in the trippier thread - klopp went into the season with no fit senior right-backs, he could've went out and signed aurier or someone else but instead chose to show faith in alexander-arnold(and then later joe gomez), both have done well and now they have multiple options there and their first choice rb(clyne) may now struggle to even get back in. poch went into the season with one senior right back but still decided to go out and buy another, he could've given that role to kwp but chose not to. that doesn't sound like someone who is desperate to bring youth players through, or maybe he actually wanted to but levy made him spend 25m instead ....

i'm not saying these are easy decisions to make but given poch's reputation for being the archbishop of giving youth a chance you'd expect to see a few more examples of it.​

 

[IGSpur]

agree, makes no sense.

as i said in the trippier thread - klopp went into the season with no fit senior right-backs, he could've went out and signed aurier or someone else but instead chose to show faith in alexander-arnold(and then later joe gomez), both have done well and now they have multiple options there and their first choice rb(clyne) may now struggle to even get back in. poch went into the season with one senior right back but still decided to go out and buy another, he could've given that role to kwp but chose not to. that doesn't sound like someone who is desperate to bring youth players through, or maybe he actually wanted to but levy made him spend 25m instead ....

i'm not saying these are easy decisions to make but given poch's reputation for being the archbishop of giving youth a chance you'd expect to see a few more examples of it.​

Jonjoe Kenny also came into a struggling u see pressure Everton team and trusted by Big Sam to play at RB and their performances have improved. He didn't crumble under the pressure and intensity of the league.

That's 3 players from KWPs age group or younger that have played in his position in the league who I don't believe are better than him, and Maitland-Niles a winger has started 3 games in a position KWP played in when he win the WC, but KWP is waiting for a very precise situation before fans and apparently Poch feel comfortable with him getting games.

 

[Cravenspurs]

agree, makes no sense.

as i said in the trippier thread - klopp went into the season with no fit senior right-backs, he could've went out and signed aurier or someone else but instead chose to show faith in alexander-arnold(and then later joe gomez), both have done well and now they have multiple options there and their first choice rb(clyne) may now struggle to even get back in. poch went into the season with one senior right back but still decided to go out and buy another, he could've given that role to kwp but chose not to. that doesn't sound like someone who is desperate to bring youth players through, or maybe he actually wanted to but levy made him spend 25m instead ....

i'm not saying these are easy decisions to make but given poch's reputation for being the archbishop of giving youth a chance you'd expect to see a few more examples of it.​

If KWP isn't in against Wimbledon, a cup we apparently aren't too interested in, I will be thinking less of Poch's youth policy.

 

[IGSpur]

If KWP isn't in against Wimbledon, a cup we apparently aren't too interested in, I will be thinking less of Poch's youth policy.

We need to take the FA Cup seriously as we need to win it. KWP starting shouldn't effect that though.

Even I believe Poch will start KWP, but wouldn't be surprised to see him on the bench I mean, he didn't let him start a dead rubber though so arguably less chance in a knockout match

 

[Cravenspurs]

We need to take the FA Cup seriously as we need to win it. KWP starting shouldn't effect that though.

Even I believe Poch will start KWP, but wouldn't be surprised to see him on the bench I mean, he didn't let him start a dead rubber though so arguably less chance in a knockout match

Agree it is something we need to try and win. A trophy is something we desperately need to bring confidence to the team and to attract some more talent.

If KWP isn't in at Wimbledon then he is off on loan most likely and Poch is sticking with his more experienced pair of rotating full backs.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

One a season isn't a lot no matter where you are competing in the table, if they are good enough. Onomah instead of Sissoko, Edwards instead of N'Koudou, KWP? could all be getting chances no?

Either way Thiago, Messi, Iniesta, Xavi Sergi Roberto, Busquets, Tello, Pedro, Motta are players that all came through Barcelona when they were competing for titles and Champions Leagues.

Munich brought through Alaba, Kroos, Schweinsteiger, Muller and Lahm when they were competing for the CL and titles. This you can't bring through academy players as you're competing for things, though they are under even more pressure than us, is an English/PL mentality. The 'can't rely on youth, they crack under pressure' talk.

I don't for one second expect him to be doing what he did at Espanyol here, but when he isn't even doing as well as his PL rivals I feel that is a different argument.

Onomah has struggled when given chances. And, yes, I know that nobody plays Onomah in his "preferred" position - but at some point there is probably a reason for that.

Edwards over GKN? OK? Not sure that a few minutes here or there makes a difference in Edwards' development. GKN has a hard enough time making a bench.

KWP - he is somewhat stuck in a numbers game. If Trippier is sold, that could change. But, you can't really justify KWP over Aurier or Trippier while both are in the squad.

As for Barça and Bayern - you have an impressive list of world class players who have come through - who on Spurs do you see as a world class talent?

Who have Spurs lost from the academy who has gone on to star at a top-4 club? Arguably Bentaleb (albeit not directly from the academy) - but Schalke are doing better this season while Bentaleb has been injured and out of form.

Maybe, the youth team players are slightly over-rated, relative to earning a place in the Senior squad. And, that is an important aspect - earning a spot. I think everyone would love to see more players coming through to the senior team - not least of all Levy. But, you cannot continue to blame Poch for not integrating more players into the senior squad if they are not ready, or capable. Watching youth games is not the same as watching how those players integrate with PL-calibre players - and I have seen youth players train with the senior team, and know that they get the opportunity to earn their way into the squad. Poch gives those players a chance to prove themselves - and thus far, I have yet to see Spurs lose a top youth player who has gone on to success at a top club.

I think a fair interpretation is that the Academy is in a lull, where players are not quite at the level necessary to compete at this level. it would be irresponsible to simply play youth players who are not ready at the expense of their own development, and at the expense of a senior player who is putting in the work on the training pitch. The right approach, imo, is to continue to integrate top prospects into first team training. Give them the opportunities to earn a spot on the team. Provide them with coaching and feedback.

 

[Blake Griffin]

We need to take the FA Cup seriously as we need to win it. KWP starting shouldn't effect that though.

Even I believe Poch will start KWP, but wouldn't be surprised to see him on the bench I mean, he didn't let him start a dead rubber though so arguably less chance in a knockout match

i don't expect to see him start, surely it'll just be trippier/aurier(whoever's turn it is in rotation) at rb? can only see him maybe in at lb if rose starts against west ham and poch gets a bit creative with davies as a cb.

I've only just seen poch's quotes on kwp today basically saying we'll make a decision in jan whether he goes out on loan or not, why was this not done in the summer though? i know aurier came in late due to his legal problems but once that was over the line we could've let kwp go rather than having him spend the next five months not playing. obviously i wouldn't have wanted him to just end up anywhere, like villa, but i'm sure a lot of clubs would have enquired about him over the sumer and would have been willing to wait.

 

[SpursD22]

Onomah has struggled when given chances. And, yes, I know that nobody plays Onomah in his "preferred" position - but at some point there is probably a reason for that.

I don’t 100% agree with you, he couldn’t even get the chance to play as a CM in the friendly games in the summer. Even TOB got the chance to play in his preferred position (CM) in the same games. Onomah hasn’t been given a fairly chance

 

[beats1]

All this talk of Poch not giving youth a chance compared with his Espanyol and even Southampton days has lost all sense of context.
Look at where we are in the footballing hierarchy. We are a Champions League club right now. Espanyol and Southampton were not. In order to bring through youth into the first team squad those players have to be a step up from what we needed previously. I'd expect the ratio of youth players deemed good enough to diminish the better we got that's just logical.

Of the players in our squad who could comfortably be replaced by youth players i can think of only one and that'd be Sissoko for Onomah (at a push - because they still don't give you the same thing). All the rest of our current options are better than what we're producing so I can't really understand the criticism of Poch.

Who did Poch bring through at southampton?

In terms of the footballing hierarchy look at Man City, they are crushing the league and they are still giving their youth players a chance. So what we should be now grateful for our new place, we could have potentially the next harry kane and there are some players who match his talent levels at his age if not better in the academy that arent getting a look in at all.

Bernardo Silva a player who most of this forum wanted for a while, had he signed for us people would be moaning that he needs the game time and a player like Edwards isnt good enough or better than him.

Whereas at City, he has played 1,200 mins whilst young players like Foden and Diaz have both in half a season managed to get 300 mins together, which is more than Onomah got all season last year.

The only difference is rather than take a player like Bernando Silva's time, Onomah was taking Sissoko's time

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

I don’t 100% agree with you, he couldn’t even get the chance to play as a CM in the friendly games in the summer. Even TOB got the chance to play in his preferred position (CM) in the same games. Onomah hasn’t been given a fairly chance

Why do you think that is the case?

 

[IGSpur]

I won't reply to most of it as I'm sure you're as tired of reading my view as I an hearing and replying to those responses. You sit on the side of Poch will do the right thing because he's Poch, I sit in the I'll wait until he actually does.

As for Barça and Bayern - you have an impressive list of world class players who have come through - who on Spurs do you see as a world class talent?

These players were not world class players when they were introduced. They became world class after being given a chance and playing with other top class players. You can only point at the fact that it was the right thing to do as you now see the results. Same as when someone says Kane was always going to make it with us as he was good enough, when 95% of the forum thought he was slow, relentless and would at best make a career in Championship. @WindyCOYS said he raps Ted Kane to end season as our first choice striker and was laughed at. I thought Kane would be our striker equivalent of Ledley King, and yet he only got his chance due to the failures of our 2 most costly players. Now you can claim it was always going to happen as he was always good enough. It's nonsense and revisionism. We've gone from he was FL ability at 18 to always having it in him. Same thing we do when any players proves they're good enough.

It's ironic I see our fans take pride in Kane coming through and mock other clubs for spending loads of money on players. I see our fans metaphorically pat each other on the back as they laugh at Utd spending 80m on Lukaku while we do things differently. Haha Van Dijk cosy's 75m I much prefer the way we do things. All these other clubs think the best way to fix a situation is to throw money at it, but we develop our own. It's absolute BS. We laid down a load of money for Soldado and Adebayor and relegated him to 3rd choice despite him being the most in form striker at the end of previous season. He came through due to luck yet we act more righteous than other clubs fans, as if this is all planned and due to us giving others a chance. Then you read the transfer forums and we want to spend spend spend, and anyone suggesting an academy player is met with they're not ready or not good enough. It's such garbage. Man Utd could laugh at us spending money on Sissoko and Nkoudou while they bring through Lingard and Rashford. Our fans don't realise how foolish they sound and how ironic their behaviour is. Youre either about giving players a chance or buying the. Don't go around telling your own fans they're not ready or good enough, then start taking credit when one eventually styles through.

Maybe, the youth team players are slightly over-rated, relative to earning a place in the Senior squad. And, that is an important aspect - earning a spot. I think everyone would love to see more players coming through to the senior team - not least of all Levy. But, you cannot continue to blame Poch for not integrating more players into the senior squad if they are not ready, or capable. Watching youth games is not the same as watching how those players integrate with PL-calibre players - and I have seen youth players train with the senior team, and know that they get the opportunity to earn their way into the squad. Poch gives those players a chance to prove themselves - and thus far, I have yet to see Spurs lose a top youth player who has gone on to success at a top club.

I think a fair interpretation is that the Academy is in a lull, where players are not quite at the level necessary to compete at this level. it would be irresponsible to simply play youth players who are not ready at the expense of their own development, and at the expense of a senior player who is putting in the work on the training pitch. The right approach, imo, is to continue to integrate top prospects into first team training. Give them the opportunities to earn a spot on the team. Provide them with coaching and feedback.

I've booked the necessary parts to respond to, as again the rest is a repeating debate of excuses.

How on earth can you make that claim. I have read Dutch, Spanish, Norwegian and German coaches much more well informed on youth/academy football than you and I consistently and unanimously state that the England academies are producing better footballers than every other country. Over the course of last seasons tournaments England youth teams lost 2 matches and they were both down to penalties. The won 4 trophies lost one final and one semi. We contribute the 3rd/4th most players to those teams and you have Jst said our academy is in a lull. You are joking right? What else can English academies do to prove to the average fan that they are good enough. Please state what you need to see before you believe that our and other PL academies are producing players good enough for the PL and ate joy I'm a lull. Yell me what they can do to show they are not overrated when compared to their European counterparts, who are producing players you will inevitably want to buy I'm the future while lamenting the state of the English game. I don't know where thes debate can even go when I'm being Tod we aren't producing players of the required standard. Of people are waiting for us to pop out a CB better than Toby, a CM better than Iniesta or an attacker better than Messi without a single adult behind them then we're never gonna produce a player again

 

[SpursD22]

Why do you think that is the case?

Whatever the case is it’s stupid. So you’re telling me TOB is more ready to play as a CM than Onomah? If the case is that Onomah is a liability and would make mistakes or not track back as CM who cares it’s a friendly game. Poch should’ve at least test him there

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

So, long story short, we have not lost any top players from the Academy who have gone on to star for a top-4 team?

I think the biggest difference is that I don't look at playing time as the gateway to becoming a star. You become a star on the training pitch, and I know that our youth prospects get the opportunity to learn and show their talents in a 1st team setting.

 

[Streetspur77]

I don't see how anyone can believe this is true though, if anything I'd be more inclined to believe Levy is the one, who would rather he use the academy since he invested so much in it. I don't believe, that if Poch had is way, we wouldn't sign anyone. Even if Levy is the one pushing Poch to sign these players you would think if someone was so insistent on using academy players and so believing in them, that he would still find a way to fit them in. Yet he has only brought one through. You expect me to believe that if in 4 years if Poch had done what he wanted the only change we would have seen in the squad is the inclusion of Winks. You honestly believe that if Poch genuinely believe in the use of the academy and suggested to Levy that he believed Onomah the so called 'special player' was better than Sissoko and he would rather use him, Levy would force him to spend 30m on a player Poch didn't think was useful? How could anyone believe it when the evidence completely suggests otherwise.

I've enjoyed this discussion but I can't tell if you're purposefully misreading what I said or not.

They "joke about" it, obviously jokes are going to be exaggerated it wouldn't be funny if Levy said "hey Mauricio if I wasn't here you'd probably buy less players, obviously depending on external factors such as stadium costs and league position!" I didn't think I needed to add that in. I'm clearly not suggesting that if Levy wasn't there poch wouldn't have signed anyone it's just an anacdote that gives an insight into poch and in a discussion void of any facts, just people's opinions on why they think stuff is happening or what they think should happen , which is fine, I tend to think primary evidence from the two people involved is interesting.

As for the rest I had something typed out but it was quite long and I don't think there's any point because whilst I can see your point of view we are both coming from such different angles I don't think we will agree. I will say though, if by this time next year KWP and a few others aren't close to the first team then I'll come back and admit I'm wrong

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

Whatever the case is it’s stupid. So you’re telling me TOB is more ready to play as a CM than Onomah? If the case is that Onomah is a liability and would make mistakes or not track back as CM who cares it’s a friendly game. Poch should’ve at least test him there

I've seen the team train - I know that Poch gives youth players the chance to prove themselves at this level. He does not need to see it in a pre-season friendly, if the player is not showing it in training.

 

[beats1]

Whatever the case is it’s stupid. So you’re telling me TOB is more ready to play as a CM than Onomah? If the case is that Onomah is a liability and would make mistakes or not track back as CM who cares it’s a friendly game. Poch should’ve at least test him there

The problem is, you can say Onomah is being played out of position by not being in CM, but he is being played out wide, which is a position he is never going to do well at.

He isnt the type of player to make a run behind and nor is he a player who is used to beating a player and putting a cross in.

Playing him out wide is just stupid, I dont understand it at all, of course people will spin it and then post a positive onomah quote over looking the fact if he says I'm not a winger, it would be career suicide