The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

[St José Dominguez]

I'd like to see a couple of youth players start against Wimbledon but at the same time I want us to win the FA Cup as we are desperate for silverware. I don't think there's any chance the squad players who have started the least will not be involved, so it'll be something like this:

Vorm
Trippier Sanchez Foyth Davies
Wanyama ??
Sissoko Lamela ??
Llorente
​

Gazzaniga, KWP, Dier, Skipp, Dele, Son, Sterling

The question marks are the only spots that perhaps a youth team player could play thus not having to risk a regular first team player and also having enough to progress. Honestly can't see the point of starting GKN as he's clearly got no future here and it's not worth risking Winks or Dembele as they've injury issues. No reason Edwards and TOB couldn't get a start.

 

[IGSpur]

I've enjoyed this discussion but I can't tell if you're purposefully misreading what I said or not.

They "joke about" it, obviously jokes are going to be exaggerated it wouldn't be funny if Levy said "hey Mauricio if I wasn't here you'd probably buy less players, obviously depending on external factors such as stadium costs and league position!" I didn't think I needed to add that in. I'm clearly not suggesting that if Levy wasn't there poch wouldn't have signed anyone it's just an anacdote that gives an insight into poch and in a discussion void of any facts, just people's opinions on why they think stuff is happening or what they think should happen , which is fine, I tend to think primary evidence from the two people involved is interesting.

As for the rest I had something typed out but it was quite long and I don't think there's any point because whilst I can see your point of view we are both coming from such different angles I don't think we will agree. I will say though, if by this time next year KWP and a few others aren't close to the first team then I'll come back and admit I'm wrong

Did misread the joke about bit, but like you said. We won't agree, which is cool.

I hope in a years time I'm apologising to you though

 

[IGSpur]

So, long story short, we have not lost any top players from the Academy who have gone on to star for a top-4 team?

Done to death

I think the biggest difference is that I don't look at playing time as the gateway to becoming a star. You become a star on the training pitch, and I know that our youth prospects get the opportunity to learn and show their talents in a 1st team setting.

I guess that is the biggest difference. You believe talent can only be shown on the training pitch, something only Poch can see and therefore he is completely protected from criticism. I look at the fact that England as I mentioned are producing better players than ever including this club, and for whatever reason less are getting chances now than before Poch arrived despite his glorious reputation. I question something if it doesn't make sense you just accept it. No one stance is right or wrong so I'll leave you to it. It really is like debating religion sometimes.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

Done to death



I guess that is the biggest difference. You believe talent can only be shown on the training pitch, something only Poch can see and therefore he is completely protected from criticism. I look at the fact that England as I mentioned are producing better players than ever including this club, and for whatever reason less are getting chances now than before Poch arrived despite his glorious reputation. I question something if it doesn't make sense you just accept it. No one stance is right or wrong so I'll leave you to it. It really is like debating religion sometimes.

Two points - I don't know what has been "done to death" the truth is we have not had an academy product go on to success at another top club. That can't be Poch's fault, and it is indicative that the talent level at the academy is not quite where it needs to be to have more players making seamless transitions to the first team. I happen to believe that Poch is doing more for these players to prepare them for senior-level football than most teams.

Second, England performing well on the international youth stage is somewhat irrelevant to whether Poch is not giving players a chance who deserve to start/play on the senior team.

And, one more - I never said that talent can "only" be shown on the training pitch - but I did say that the players must show it there first - against senior team players - before they get a chance to show it in matches. I don't think that is a radical approach at all.

 

[Spurzinho]

On a positive note, congrats to Aramide Oteh who made his QPR debut from the bench tonight. He came on after 68 minutes. Pleased for the lad who had a tough time here.

 

[archiewasking]

Did you think Sanchez had a future after being 'bossed' by an even weaker Rondon?

Sanchez has pace and is new to us and the league. CCV has none of those things in his favour. I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

 

[Cornpattbuck]

This thread has officially lost its marbles. Sad times.

 

[Cornpattbuck]

agree, makes no sense.

as i said in the trippier thread - klopp went into the season with no fit senior right-backs, he could've went out and signed aurier or someone else but instead chose to show faith in alexander-arnold(and then later joe gomez), both have done well and now they have multiple options there and their first choice rb(clyne) may now struggle to even get back in. poch went into the season with one senior right back but still decided to go out and buy another, he could've given that role to kwp but chose not to. that doesn't sound like someone who is desperate to bring youth players through, or maybe he actually wanted to but levy made him spend 25m instead ....

i'm not saying these are easy decisions to make but given poch's reputation for being the archbishop of giving youth a chance you'd expect to see a few more examples of it.​

You know Gomez was bought as a hotly-tipped youngster right? Much like Dier/Alli were for us. All are doing well and that's great, but it shouldn't be a stick to beat the club with. If I'm remembering correctly, Alexander-Arnold was tipped as a break through star as long ago as two years ago, and with his directness and crossing ability I'm not surprised he's forced his way in. KWP's game is much more subtle.

I know a few people have mentioned City too, but they've cherry picked from around the world and built a friggin' stadium for them etc...

 

[Cornpattbuck]

Jonjoe Kenny also came into a struggling u see pressure Everton team and trusted by Big Sam to play at RB and their performances have improved. He didn't crumble under the pressure and intensity of the league.

That's 3 players from KWPs age group or younger that have played in his position in the league who I don't believe are better than him, and Maitland-Niles a winger has started 3 games in a position KWP played in when he win the WC, but KWP is waiting for a very precise situation before fans and apparently Poch feel comfortable with him getting games.

Kenny is the guy that forced KWP to have to play on the left for England and Everton had nothing to lose. Much like Poch when he put his faith in Carroll and Mason (I'd add Bentaleb but I know that's a can of 20 paragraph worms). FFS.

 

[Cornpattbuck]

All just feeling a bit agenda driven in here at the mo. Think I need a break. Love our club and have everything crossed that a few of the lads will make it through soon. Tired of the negative essays though. Have faith.

 

[Locotoro]

The problem is, you can say Onomah is being played out of position by not being in CM, but he is being played out wide, which is a position he is never going to do well at.

He isnt the type of player to make a run behind and nor is he a player who is used to beating a player and putting a cross in.

Playing him out wide is just stupid, I dont understand it at all, of course people will spin it and then post a positive onomah quote over looking the fact if he says I'm not a winger, it would be career suicide

Modric came to us and played LM for half a season and made it his own. It's not always about fitting a pre made mould of player type, as Jeff Goldblum says he's just got to "find a way"

 

[IGSpur]

Kenny is the guy that forced KWP to have to play on the left for England and Everton had nothing to lose. Much like Poch when he put his faith in Carroll and Mason (I'd add Bentaleb but I know that's a can of 20 paragraph worms). FFS.

Ye ask most youth watchers and they think KWP is better. Either way just because one player can only play in a position at a time it doesn't mean the back up isn't good enough. That is the whole point in a golden generation, that they have depth. The 97s and 00s both have multiple player in one position with potential to make it. The same way we have Edwards, Shashoua and Roles who have the ability to play PL football in the future.

All just feeling a bit agenda driven in here at the mo. Think I need a break. Love our club and have everything crossed that a few of the lads will make it through soon. Tired of the negative essays though. Have faith.

I don't know how something can be agenda driven when it is just commenting on the evidence. Either way I'm just as bored and frustrated as you are coming up against brick walls. I've laid out my points and said i wouldn't be drawn in again. I've waited 1,2 ,3 4,and am now being told to wait for 5 and so on. I'm passionate about spurs and England and am passionate about ours and England's youth and can just see what is going to happen it and watch it go down the drain and it makes me feel like pulling my hair out that so many people are non-plussed about the situation and really don't know what we have in our hands. I can see things won't change, I know I seem stubborn and like i hate Poch so I will take a step back from the debate. It's tiresome for all. Frustratingly there are no winter tournaments to watch and comment on but youth football will be back soon, and everyone can be content to read about and keep updated on the future players that will never play for us. People are free to keep the faith and defend us to the hilt, I hope to see a day where we produce another Kane and in the meantime used the money saved and earned to pay transfer fees and wags to world Class players, but I won't hold my breath. You guys win, essays hopefully done until next season, unless a separate thread is made.

 

[IGSpur]

On a positive note, congrats to Aramide Oteh who made his QPR debut from the bench tonight. He came on after 68 minutes. Pleased for the lad who had a tough time here.

I noticed that. I player that suffered injuries initially then his position was usurped by an inform and developing Sterling. Congrats to him, hope he goes onto have a good career. Had something about him. I cast-off from our strong age group and still made it to Championship in the end, though has a long way to go. Hope we use ours wisely

 

[taidgh]

All just feeling a bit agenda driven in here at the mo. Think I need a break. Love our club and have everything crossed that a few of the lads will make it through soon. Tired of the negative essays though. Have faith.

Completely agree. This thread was (is?) great for finding out reports from people who go to youth games and provide analysis on what they saw. I have really enjoyed seeing reports on players I hadn't known about previously and seeing footage from underage tournaments. That is what has made this thread so great.

But now, it seems to have devolved into a two camps: the pro-youth/anti-Poch-not-bringing-through-players-when-they-are-so-clearly-ready-(imo) and the pro-youth/maybe they aren't-ready-yet brigades.

To @IGSpur, @Blake Griffin, @Windy and a few others, firstly, thank you so much for your contributions here! The information on the youth teams and players has made this one of the best threads on the site. But I believe it's gotten off track a bit. Perhaps the style of posting is a bit over-the-top. You all have clearly expressed your opinions on the (lack of?) progress of some players and their promotion to the first team. And while no one knows as much or has watched as much youth football on here, you consistently denigrate current first team players, signings and management in your promotion of youth players. When posters disagree or take exception to your opinions, you fire back, restating your points to the degree that this thread has lost it's direction. Others are to blame here as well, it's just that you lot are so fervent about your views that the thread has become an "us" vs. "them" situation.

I don't post this to stop anyone from airing an opinion, but just to lament the downward progress of what was once the best thread on SC. I fervently hope this thread reverts back to what it was.

 

[IGSpur]

Completely agree. This thread was (is?) great for finding out reports from people who go to youth games and provide analysis on what they saw. I have really enjoyed seeing reports on players I hadn't known about previously and seeing footage from underage tournaments. That is what has made this thread so great.

But now, it seems to have devolved into a two camps: the pro-youth/anti-Poch-not-bringing-through-players-when-they-are-so-clearly-ready-(imo) and the pro-youth/maybe they aren't-ready-yet brigades.

To @IGSpur, @Blake Griffin, @Windy and a few others, firstly, thank you so much for your contributions here! The information on the youth teams and players has made this one of the best threads on the site. But I believe it's gotten off track a bit. Perhaps the style of posting is a bit over-the-top. You all have clearly expressed your opinions on the (lack of?) progress of some players and their promotion to the first team. And while no one knows as much or has watched as much youth football on here, you consistently denigrate current first team players, signings and management in your promotion of youth players. When posters disagree or take exception to your opinions, you fire back, restating your points to the degree that this thread has lost it's direction. Others are to blame here as well, it's just that you lot are so fervent about your views that the thread has become an "us" vs. "them" agenda.

I don't post this to stop anyone from airing an opinion, but just to lament the downward progress of what was once the best thread on SC. I fervently hope this thread reverts back to what it was.

I just posted I will try and avoid that discussion as while I enjoy the 'debate' it grows tedious and frustrating and ultimately it' pointless, if there is a separate thread for it that's fine. But I'll just post updates from now on as before, it must suck for everyone.

 

[taidgh]

I just posted I will try and avoid that discussion as while I enjoy the 'debate' it grows tedious and frustrating and ultimately it' pointless, if there is a separate thread for it that's fine. But I'll just post updates from now on as before, it must suck for everyone.

Saw that after I posted. Again, thanks for all the info and updates. If and when you're ready, why not start a new thread? In any case, I look forward to reading further contributions.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Completely agree. This thread was (is?) great for finding out reports from people who go to youth games and provide analysis on what they saw. I have really enjoyed seeing reports on players I hadn't known about previously and seeing footage from underage tournaments. That is what has made this thread so great.

But now, it seems to have devolved into a two camps: the pro-youth/anti-Poch-not-bringing-through-players-when-they-are-so-clearly-ready-(imo) and the pro-youth/maybe they aren't-ready-yet brigades.

To @IGSpur, @Blake Griffin, @Windy and a few others, firstly, thank you so much for your contributions here! The information on the youth teams and players has made this one of the best threads on the site. But I believe it's gotten off track a bit. Perhaps the style of posting is a bit over-the-top. You all have clearly expressed your opinions on the (lack of?) progress of some players and their promotion to the first team. And while no one knows as much or has watched as much youth football on here, you consistently denigrate current first team players, signings and management in your promotion of youth players. When posters disagree or take exception to your opinions, you fire back, restating your points to the degree that this thread has lost it's direction. Others are to blame here as well, it's just that you lot are so fervent about your views that the thread has become an "us" vs. "them" agenda.

I don't post this to stop anyone from airing an opinion, but just to lament the downward progress of what was once the best thread on SC. I fervently hope this thread reverts back to what it was.

It is possible to think Poch one of the best coaches we ever had, but criticise facets of his approach. And that's how most feel who criticise his integration of academy players I believe.

It happens everywhere else on this site, from who he picks, the tactics he employs, the players he wants to sign, his in game management etc etc. People applaud and criticise.

This is just another debate. You can't expect the people you say make this thread great, the ones like IG, BG, Spurhino, Edson, Windy who have watched these kids for 5+ years and have intrinsic knowledge of them, to not have opinions on whether they could fulfil various levels of remit within our squad, and argue that when people, usual with much less knowledge of those players, spout spurious arguments as to why Poch is right not to integrate some of the best academy players.

For example, someone ( @Lexington I think) above said something like "why should Poch give these players chances when they are clearly not ready". Did KWP really not look ready to be a back up or rotation RB when he played against Newcastle ? You cannot expect people that have watched KWP for 4 or 5 years and have rated him highly, not to have a contravening opinion on this.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Onomah has struggled when given chances. And, yes, I know that nobody plays Onomah in his "preferred" position - but at some point there is probably a reason for that.

Edwards over GKN? OK? Not sure that a few minutes here or there makes a difference in Edwards' development. GKN has a hard enough time making a bench.

In a few minutes from the bench Edwards completely changed at least two of the games at the recent WC that England won. What if he dis something similar for our first team? You don't think that could make a huge difference to his development chances?

KWP - he is somewhat stuck in a numbers game. If Trippier is sold, that could change. But, you can't really justify KWP over Aurier or Trippier while both are in the squad.

KWP is stuck in a numbers game because despite already having one international RB, we then went and spent 24m on another.

Who have Spurs lost from the academy who has gone on to star at a top-4 club? Arguably Bentaleb (albeit not directly from the academy) - but Schalke are doing better this season while Bentaleb has been injured and out of form.

What is this mythical top4 quality that academy players only must be judged by ? Is Davies, Trippier, Wanyama, Son top four players ? Are Delph, Blind, Moses, Smalling, Linguard, Rashford, Mangala, Rojo, Valencia, Jones ?

When we bought them were Dier, Alli, Walker, Rose, Dembele, Alderweireld, Eriksen. Was Kane when we brought him through ?

Nobody is heavily criticising most of the youth players that have had chances and then been sold on, it's the ones that are clearly of high potential, that don't get any chance or meaningful chance at all that cause most debate. Opinions on these players are often honed by some on here after watching them for years, not on a whim or the 5 minute youtube clips that people will argue for 78 pages on in the "who should we buy threads".

Just because a player hasn't gone on to be a top4 - world class - player doesn't mean they couldn't have done a very useful job for us, just as many players who aren't of the very highest quality that we have purchased have.

Maybe, the youth team players are slightly over-rated, relative to earning a place in the Senior squad. And, that is an important aspect - earning a spot. I think everyone would love to see more players coming through to the senior team - not least of all Levy. But, you cannot continue to blame Poch for not integrating more players into the senior squad if they are not ready, or capable.

No, everyone doesn't just want players taking up minutes and games that aren't very good or clearly couldn't do as good a job as the alternative. This isn't about academy v non academy, it's about wanting the best for spurs.

And yes we can blame Pichettino for not integrating certain players better, for not giving certain players better chances, based on our knowledge of all the players at his disposal. Just as we can criticise Pochettino for his team selections, tactics, in game management and every other facet of his management. We may not always be 100% vindicated in those criticisms, but we won't always be wrong either.

Did you really think after seeing his league debut that KWP wasn't ready or capable to be back up RB ?

Watching youth games is not the same as watching how those players integrate with PL-calibre players - and I have seen youth players train with the senior team, and know that they get the opportunity to earn their way into the squad. Poch gives those players a chance to prove themselves - and thus far, I have yet to see Spurs lose a top youth player who has gone on to success at a top club.

But again, all the top clubs in this country are not likely to be purchasing a kid from our academy for their first team are they, when there is so much money and so much pressure on these managers.

And none of us are saying that we've been producing an abundance of world class players destined to play Top4 football, but then most of the signings we make aren't of that quality either. Players don't have to be world class at 19 to be viable squad options. Liverpool are sitting above us in the table with two academy players at RB having their first seasons.

I think a fair interpretation is that the Academy is in a lull, where players are not quite at the level necessary to compete at this level. it would be irresponsible to simply play youth players who are not ready at the expense of their own development, and at the expense of a senior player who is putting in the work on the training pitch. The right approach, imo, is to continue to integrate top prospects into first team training. Give them the opportunities to earn a spot on the team. Provide them with coaching and feedback.

You say things like this like people are demanding Edwards starts every EPL game. When what people are criticising is things like the signing of players like Njie with 15 erratic games in Ligue 1, when a player like Pritchard isn't given a single meaningful minute (after proving himself superbly on loan at the top end of the championship). Or when we watch ManC, Liverpool and even Utd playing academy players, and we can't stick one into a game in the CL at home which is an absolute dead rubber.

 

[WindyCOYS]

You know Gomez was bought as a hotly-tipped youngster right? Much like Dier/Alli were for us. All are doing well and that's great, but it shouldn't be a stick to beat the club with. If I'm remembering correctly, Alexander-Arnold was tipped as a break through star as long ago as two years ago, and with his directness and crossing ability I'm not surprised he's forced his way in. KWP's game is much more subtle.

I know a few people have mentioned City too, but they've cherry picked from around the world and built a friggin' stadium for them etc...

For what it's worth KWP is better than TAA, plus was older, more experienced and arguably more physically ready.

 

[WindyCOYS]

To @IGSpur, @Blake Griffin, @Windy and a few others, firstly, thank you so much for your contributions here! The information on the youth teams and players has made this one of the best threads on the site. But I believe it's gotten off track a bit. Perhaps the style of posting is a bit over-the-top. You all have clearly expressed your opinions on the (lack of?) progress of some players and their promotion to the first team. And while no one knows as much or has watched as much youth football on here, you consistently denigrate current first team players, signings and management in your promotion of youth players. When posters disagree or take exception to your opinions, you fire back, restating your points to the degree that this thread has lost it's direction. Others are to blame here as well, it's just that you lot are so fervent about your views that the thread has become an "us" vs. "them" situation.

I have rarely joined in the argument; instead I watch @IGSpur and @Blake Griffin fight the good fight from afar . And a terrific job they do.

Also, I've not been to a single U18 match this season due to circumstance (though I've seen a fair bit of the U23s), so am reliant on reading the terrific comments from @edson, @IGSpur and others.

Perhaps rather than restate views, we (the royal we) should instead start to use the 'agree'/'disagree' options more regularly, since they are there to be used?