The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

[mpickard2087]

Mega lolz at people complaining about the topics discussed. Some of us might find the 'let's sign him, him and him' type discussions equally tiresome..... How about just put up with it, skim over it, or avoid any topics you really couldn't care less about?

Carry on chaps I say, at least these debates have posters putting time, thought and effort into what they say

 

[Cornpattbuck]

For what it's worth KWP is better than TAA, plus was older, more experienced and arguably more physically ready.

I'm absolutely convinced KWP's time will come.

 

[IGSpur]

@Blake Griffin going on from what we were discussing earlier, even this period of the year is usually filled with tournaments that we can usually watch. I wonder what has happened, or if our approach has changed.

In December 2013 we played in IMG Cup for the first time. I remember watching Oduwa roasting their full back and getting him sent off and we smashed em 6-2. I believe the highlights were even on the OS before being taken down with everything else. Then in January 2014 we were involved in the Nutifood Cup, one which I enjoyed, with one of my favourite age groups, full game against Japan here .
In December 2014 we were involved in the IMG Cup with the infamous punch-up with the US, after Pulisic took advantage of a slip from KWP. We then played in the Frenz International Trophy in January 2015, the most memorable game being the wrestling match we had with Estudiantes and the terrible pitch. Even in early Jan '15 we had highlights of our u16s playing in Crowne Plaza Elite competition.
In December 2015 we played in the IMG Cup when we lost on pens.
In December 2016 we also played in the IMG Cup can't remember what happened.

I always remember this time of year being one of the few times where we get to watch our youth teams play on streams from the comfort of our home but literally nothing this year, until the Riga Cup starts up in late Jan and I believe we only have one team playing then.

I wonder if this is a conscious change. If anyone gets the chance to ask a coach it would be interesting to hear what is going on. Please Spurs coaches put some football on, we can't be trusted to make good conversation without a distraction. Would also be good if the THST could ask what is going on with the lack of highlights.

 

[Flashspur]

What ever happened to Oduwa? Thats right, he is with Olympia Ljubiana (sic) right? Another one of the 'we should start him against Liverpool next week instead of Son etc' crew. Playing against the kids is different to a mans game. Its a long way to the top if you want a sausage roll,

As @taidgh has referred to above, the 'pro-youth/maybe they aren't-ready-yet brigades' get tired of the bigging up of lads that won't go on to the first team.

I'd suggest to BC that if youth had potential then Poch would be playing them right now. He has given Dier, Sanchez, Winks, Kane etc a go. Maybe they are not any good. Either that or he thinks they are not ready. Look at how Tripps has been skinned in recent games. You think KWP would do better? Maybe Poch does not want his development pushed back with a horror performance until he is physically ready. And for the last time Newcastle is probably a bad example. They are a sorry lot.

 

[IGSpur]

Another one of the 'we should start him against Liverpool next week instead of Son etc' crew

Can't be arsed to be drawn into the debate and you're whole post in general.

But literally no one has ever said the highlighted bit. Reading the transfer thread though, I think I should also clarify certain points. If Oduwa when he was at another club was performing how he was performing, I would not advocate spending 8m on him to play for our first team, as I want players who have proven themselves to improve our first team. But if he has the potential ability to be really good and he is already here and costs nothing, why not try him out in the EL or CC and see where he goes from there. If he wasn't good enough we sell for 5-8m if he performs as he did in the youth teams then brilliant. It's win-win. No one has said Oduwa is better than Son stop making false arguments to prove a point.

I have also read in the summer signings thread, people saying that Levy has shown ambition as he has invested in the academy hence we are not able to make big signings and it is a long term plan, and yet if we don't actually use it, what we have essentially done is just waste money and time for the last 10+ years when they money spent on the academy could have just gone to wages. Let's use this long term investment Levy we are proud in than just show it off as a good looking piece of infrastructure. The longer we go without using it, then the argument used to defend why Levy cannot spend big money on signings can be used less and less. It clearly isn't doing it's job of producing players of the required standard and so you have to look at the people who thought it would be a good idea, and where they got that idea from. It becomes indefensible and looks like a massive misjudgement on Levy's part as in the end it has essentially hindered us. I of course think it's done its job but if it is deemed by the managers that we aren't producing good enough players for even League Cup football then it has been a massive failure

 

[mpickard2087]

What ever happened to Oduwa? Thats right, he is with Olympia Ljubiana (sic) right? Another one of the 'we should start him against Liverpool next week instead of Son etc' crew. Playing against the kids is different to a mans game. Its a long way to the top if you want a sausage roll,

As @taidgh has referred to above, the 'pro-youth/maybe they aren't-ready-yet brigades' get tired of the bigging up of lads that won't go on to the first team.

I'd suggest to BC that if youth had potential then Poch would be playing them right now. He has given Dier, Sanchez, Winks, Kane etc a go. Maybe they are not any good. Either that or he thinks they are not ready. Look at how Tripps has been skinned in recent games. You think KWP would do better? Maybe Poch does not want his development pushed back with a horror performance until he is physically ready. And for the last time Newcastle is probably a bad example. They are a sorry lot.

Oduwa is a good example actually. I didn't rate him, and never thought he would make it here, but I'd much rather have used him from the bench on a few occasions for the 'random, tricky, but ultimately disappointing' wide player role than the alternative which has been to burn 10m each on the N'Randoms. He would almost certainly have failed, but I'd rather confirm that first than buy in some squad filler crap which is what we have done. On occasion we'd find someone who did (surprisingly) fulfil a remit.

 

[Flashspur]

Wasn't he showcased in the Scottish PL for that reason? I am not making false arguments, the hyperbole has swung that way at times.

 

[Flashspur]

Oduwa...the 'random, tricky, but ultimately disappointing' wide player ...

As good an epitaph as any

 

[IGSpur]

Oduwa is a good example actually. I didn't rate him, and never thought he would make it here, but I'd much rather have used him from the bench on a few occasions for the 'random, tricky, but ultimately disappointing' wide player role than the alternative which has been to burn 10m each on the N'Randoms. He would almost certainly have failed, but I'd rather confirm that first than buy in some squad filler crap which is what we have done. On occasion we'd find someone who did (surprisingly) fulfil a remit.

100% Oduwa was one of the few that split the regular first team watchers views. Like you say I don't think he would have done worse than the others and we either make money or waste 2/3 games trying him out.

Additionally as someone said in the signings thread, the way the market is going the N'Jie signings are going to start costing 20m, when money is so tight surely it makes more sense on trying these guys out first than investing heavily in untested players.

 

[Flashspur]

I was never down on Dier, Kane, Winks etc. You could see the quality and potential from the get go. With the others its debatable If they have the quality and character. Time will be the judge.

 

[IGSpur]

As good an epitaph as any

Zaha and Bolasie could easily fit into that category. I don't think either were good enough for us, but I reckon if Oduwa was given what they have he would look an appealing signing to most. If he came through in Championship he would be looking like that stereotypical winger people would like to sign but ultimately wouldn't take us to the next level. For arguments sake, and yes I know one is Scottish Champ and the other English Champ but lets look at both players at the same age or similar age as it contains some of Oduwa's academy stuff. Like I say, I wouldn't be advocating signings players not really getting any goals or assists, though Zaha did well in his first year I believe, but until now hasn't shown that, that regularly. I wouldn't be advocating signings unspectaclular N'jie's and N'Koudou's who have done nothing, but if that type of player is what we wanted what is Zaha showing that Oduwa isn't. You're fooling yourself if you believe that, the Zaha in the vids below, would have been given a chance in our first team if he came through our academy. Heck if we signed that Zaha he probably wouldn't have got into our first team. Yet 5 years on and finally showing some consistency people want to spend 30m on him and he still isn't even that consistent. What if we had given Oduwa a chance, surrounded him with quality players and coaching, never know what could have happened.

And finally for those saying look what happened to Oduwa, it's not my info to share, but remember football isn't black and white, to keep things fairly ambiguous, there are, physical , social, mental, emotional, factors that can affect players that we never see, and could influence why players might have fallen on off, or not fulfilled potential. Remember he was offered a contract form the club which he turned down, so clearly the club thought he had potential, so we don't know what was going on for him to then want to go to Slovenia. Ultimately if there were other factors at play he most likely would have never made it with us, but after that Rangers loan where he was elbowed and people tried to break his leg he wasn't ever really the same. Remember the story about Parrett imagine how that might have affected him as a young player trying to find his way in the game, there are so many things happening behind the scenes.

 

[mpickard2087]

As good an epitaph as any

As it will for the N'Randoms.

 

[IGSpur]

I was never down on Dier, Kane, Winks etc. You could see the quality and potential from the get go. With the others its debatable If they have the quality and character. Time will be the judge.

Similarly to Winks, I am somewhat optimistic that Skipp/TOB could come through us at some point. They are in the similar mould, where they can seamlessly transition into the first team, receiving the ball and passing it on. These type of players are unspectacular and fairly low risk, so I have some faith that at least one of those two will get chances in the future. Skipp has the added benefit of being excellent at breaking up play.

 

[Lemon]

@IGSpur this is your playground my man, if you feel like a rant, then rant.

Please don't stop. Time will bear out the truth, as KWP, Onomah and Edwards (in particular) will show here or elsewhere.

It's obvious there is less pressure to integrate youth, than there is a player the manager agrees to spend €10m upon.

Personally I agree that Poch appears excessively risk averse with youth, to my mind this hamstrings us into signings like N'Koudou, who in turn leave us with only enough to sign Sissoko rather than a Zaha (plus giving Edwards a shot). Edwards, for example, may be 10% less effective than N'Koudou in the near term, but if that allows 40-50% upside on another signing, then losing a tiny bit on Edwards as he develops is hardly going to destroy the clubs mentality (putting aside the psychological question marks over Edwards, of course).

 

[NRH]

Thank you all for the information you share and the good discussions. i live in Norway so it's good to have this thread that keep us up to date with the latest in the academy.

I think it's a shame that when we have a bench of seven players that we dont have one or two of the u23 players sitting there in each match.

Very often i think the injury list must be large to give young players a chance. I will never forget a Fa cup 3 round match against Manchester united when we had Rory Allen and Neale Fenn as strikers.

I remember also a match against Liverpool at WHL when i think George Graham that was not pleased with the defending in the game before used å back three of Ledley King, Alton Thelwell and Luke Young and we won 2-1 after Liverpool taking the lead.

I have a few questions to you who have seen the U16, U18 and U23 matches this season. Who have been the best u16 player, the best first year trainee, the best second year trainee and the best U23 player? And in these four groups who have improved most so far this season?

 

[Lemon]

Also, this current methodology has left us in a situation where we need to buy homegrown players, a fairly damning indictment of our philosophy IMO.

We would sneer at other clubs like ManCity-Arse-Chelsea in this position, I know I have previously.

 

[Blake Griffin]

@Blake Griffin going on from what we were discussing earlier, even this period of the year is usually filled with tournaments that we can usually watch. I wonder what has happened, or if our approach has changed.

In December 2013 we played in IMG Cup for the first time. I remember watching Oduwa roasting their full back and getting him sent off and we smashed em 6-2. I believe the highlights were even on the OS before being taken down with everything else. Then in January 2014 we were involved in the Nutifood Cup, one which I enjoyed, with one of my favourite age groups, full game against Japan here .
In December 2014 we were involved in the IMG Cup with the infamous punch-up with the US, after Pulisic took advantage of a slip from KWP. We then played in the Frenz International Trophy in January 2015, the most memorable game being the wrestling match we had with Estudiantes and the terrible pitch. Even in early Jan '15 we had highlights of our u16s playing in Crowne Plaza Elite competition.
In December 2015 we played in the IMG Cup when we lost on pens.
In December 2016 we also played in the IMG Cup can't remember what happened.

I always remember this time of year being one of the few times where we get to watch our youth teams play on streams from the comfort of our home but literally nothing this year, until the Riga Cup starts up in late Jan and I believe we only have one team playing then.

I wonder if this is a conscious change. If anyone gets the chance to ask a coach it would be interesting to hear what is going on. Please Spurs coaches put some football on, we can't be trusted to make good conversation without a distraction. Would also be good if the THST could ask what is going on with the lack of highlights.

i think this time around they probably just thought that we've played a lot of games already this season so don't need another tournament, rather than it being a conscious decision based on not wanting them televised - the amount of fans tuning in to watch these games is negligible anyway. i think us choosing not to upload any footage from youth games anymore probably comes from poch though, we know the games are filmed as the cameras are there and it doesn't exactly take long to cut a few highlights together and upload them to the site. at least they haven't stopped the public from going to games i guess so that's something at least.

 

[IGSpur]

Thank you all for the information you share and the good discussions. i live in Norway so it's good to have this thread that keep us up to date with the latest in the academy.

I think it's a shame that when we have a bench of seven players that we dont have one or two of the u23 players sitting there in each match.

Very often i think the injury list must be large to give young players a chance. I will never forget a Fa cup 3 round match against Manchester united when we had Rory Allen and Neale Fenn as strikers.

I remember also a match against Liverpool at WHL when i think George Graham that was not pleased with the defending in the game before used å back three of Ledley King, Alton Thelwell and Luke Young and we won 2-1 after Liverpool taking the lead.

I have a few questions to you who have seen the U16, U18 and U23 matches this season. Who have been the best u16 player, the best first year trainee, the best second year trainee and the best U23 player? And in these four groups who have improved most so far this season?

To make clear from edsons post the breakdown would be

u16 - Bennett and Madueke (Bennett most improved?
first year - BLF and Skipp (Richards prob most improved)
second year - I'd say Hinds and Eyoma
u23 - Tanganga, Bennetts and Edwards but I haven't watched much u23s this year

Anyone know what has happened to Duncan?

 

[IGSpur]

Can't be arsed to be drawn into the debate and you're whole post in general.

But literally no one has ever said the highlighted bit. Reading the transfer thread though, I think I should also clarify certain points. If Oduwa when he was at another club was performing how he was performing, I would not advocate spending 8m on him to play for our first team, as I want players who have proven themselves to improve our first team. But if he has the potential ability to be really good and he is already here and costs nothing, why not try him out in the EL or CC and see where he goes from there. If he wasn't good enough we sell for 5-8m if he performs as he did in the youth teams then brilliant. It's win-win. No one has said Oduwa is better than Son stop making false arguments to prove a point.

I have also read in the summer signings thread, people saying that Levy has shown ambition as he has invested in the academy hence we are not able to make big signings and it is a long term plan, and yet if we don't actually use it, what we have essentially done is just waste money and time for the last 10+ years when they money spent on the academy could have just gone to wages. Let's use this long term investment Levy we are proud in than just show it off as a good looking piece of infrastructure. The longer we go without using it, then the argument used to defend why Levy cannot spend big money on signings can be used less and less. It clearly isn't doing it's job of producing players of the required standard and so you have to look at the people who thought it would be a good idea, and where they got that idea from. It becomes indefensible and looks like a massive misjudgement on Levy's part as in the end it has essentially hindered us. I of course think it's done its job but if it is deemed by the managers that we aren't producing good enough players for even League Cup football then it has been a massive failure

Anyone know before we redeveloped the academy and built the training ground, whether there were any or objectives or outcomes and timeframes, I can't remember or find anything, but I'm sure there must have been aims otherwise it was pointless

 

[IGSpur]

It's obvious there is less pressure to integrate youth, than there is a player the manager agrees to spend €10m upon.

100% agree

Edwards, for example, may be 10% less effective than N'Koudou in the near term, but if that allows 40-50% upside on another signing, then losing a tiny bit on Edwards as he develops is hardly going to destroy the clubs mentality (putting aside the psychological question marks over Edwards, of course).

Especially when you consider that once settled there is a great chance Edwards will be more effective than someone like N'Koudou when he settles.