The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

IGSpur

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Edwards may not be the most consistent he may not track back and work as hard as he should. He may play his music too loud. But one thing is for sure things happen when he’s around the penalty area. We do not have one player in the 1st squad who is as good a dribbler as him. In a game like today I’d bring him in at half time and just say be brave and run at them. I don’t care if they stop you 9 times out of 10. One time will be that magic moment or a pen. Just put him in the bench for games like this.
It feels very reactive after a disappointing game, but I guess that is the point. If we have no way to lockpick teams that sit back and our current options are struggling why not throw in a wildcard. If he was on the bench I would definitely bring on Lamela over him, but with 10 minutes to go, a player that isn't known who they won't have done any work on. Could help.
 

coys200

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It feels very reactive after a disappointing game, but I guess that is the point. If we have no way to lockpick teams that sit back and our current options are struggling why not throw in a wildcard. If he was on the bench I would definitely bring on Lamela over him, but with 10 minutes to go, a player that isn't known who they won't have done any work on. Could help.
Tbh it’s not knee jerk I’ve said it after every 1-1 0-0 at Wembley. Today we brought on wanyama at 0-1. Love vic and everything but come on at 0-1.
 

JRSG

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The main issue isn't that he wasn't there to bring on tonight. It's a more general point. He should've had minutes in games where Pochettino could've brought him on whilst Spurs had a lead, to get a look at him. Then potentially he'd have been an option tonight. As opposed to having just Lamela on the bench tonight and in his prolonged absence, no one.
 

SlumDilla

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So reading 'Brave New World' on page 218 this paragraph stood out to me

" Around that time I had a very tricky conversation with one of the key men, whose name I'll keep to myself for the time being. It was our second in the space of a year. I got Jesus to prepare the ground the spent almost an hour talking. I swooped to add the finishing touches although Jesus kept chiming with phrases like " You do this in training, this in games and these are the statistics". I went down the contract route: " If you carry on like this, we don't need you" There ended being a trigger in a video that we showed him, clearly proving that he reacted conservatively on two occasions in the same match instead of doing what he should've done, which was to move forwards. His decision affected him and the team"

There is no doubt in my mind after reading the bulk of the book that Poch and the coaching staff have sat Sissoko down and asked him to play in the fashion we saw today. They understand his limitations and are okay with him playing the role that he does. We can slam and criticize Sissoko but Poch keeps picking him and starting him in games. For whatever reason Mauricio believes that Sissoko is either a safer bet or truly feels that no youth players can stand in and perform the duties he does.
 

Blake Griffin

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alasdair gold seems to think edwards is injured -

Marcus Edwards

The player most of the fans want to see given a chance. Pochettino has played it careful with the 19-year-old attacking midfielder since he appeared from the bench in the League Cup last season, admitting it was a mistake to compare him with Lionel Messi back in 2016 and put so much pressure on the teenager.

However, Edwards missed Wednesday night's U23s' defeat to Leicester City through injury and that has to be assessed this week before the talented midfielder can even be considered for a spot on the bench.
http://www.football.london/tottenha...sults/spurs-academy-wimbledon-fa-cup-14112805
 

Univarn

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Dan Kilpatrick also reporting on twitter he has a minor back knock and is not in contention but that a few youngsters are expected to be included in the squad.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Dan_KP/status/949302764185714689

Suspect based on recent KWP (prob as a LB), Amos, Sterling, and maybe AG. I would like to see Skipp get some love but with Wanyama, Winks, and Dembele all vying for fitness I bet Poch has to give them time. Feels like TOB has fallen into the same black hole of undisclosed injuries Edwards did last year.
 

Blake Griffin

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Dan Kilpatrick also reporting on twitter he has a minor back knock and is not in contention but that a few youngsters are expected to be included in the squad.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Dan_KP/status/949302764185714689

Suspect based on recent KWP (prob as a LB), Amos, Sterling, and maybe AG. I would like to see Skipp get some love but with Wanyama, Winks, and Dembele all vying for fitness I bet Poch has to give them time. Feels like TOB has fallen into the same black hole of undisclosed injuries Edwards did last year.
he probably wasn't even in contention anyway. i mean i doubt anything has changed in poch's mind between now and the apoel game a month ago, plus this match is more important than that was.
 

Luka Van der Bale

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So reading 'Brave New World' on page 218 this paragraph stood out to me

" Around that time I had a very tricky conversation with one of the key men, whose name I'll keep to myself for the time being. It was our second in the space of a year. I got Jesus to prepare the ground the spent almost an hour talking. I swooped to add the finishing touches although Jesus kept chiming with phrases like " You do this in training, this in games and these are the statistics". I went down the contract route: " If you carry on like this, we don't need you" There ended being a trigger in a video that we showed him, clearly proving that he reacted conservatively on two occasions in the same match instead of doing what he should've done, which was to move forwards. His decision affected him and the team"

There is no doubt in my mind after reading the bulk of the book that Poch and the coaching staff have sat Sissoko down and asked him to play in the fashion we saw today. They understand his limitations and are okay with him playing the role that he does. We can slam and criticize Sissoko but Poch keeps picking him and starting him in games. For whatever reason Mauricio believes that Sissoko is either a safer bet or truly feels that no youth players can stand in and perform the duties he does.
How did you come to this conclusion? The quote implies he discourages the way Sissoko played today.
 

SlumDilla

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How did you come to this conclusion? The quote implies he discourages the way Sissoko played today.
So the player referenced in that excerpt is most likely Trippier. I highlighted that quote to show that Poch takes non-compliance of his instructions seriously and will even threaten to get rid of a player who consistently fails to follow said instructions.


Now by no means would anyone call Sissoko dynamic, creative or forward thinking in his play. And yet Sissoko still plays, even though he lacks these skillsets. Which leads me to believe that Poch and the coaching staff are okay and are actually instructing Sissoko to play this limited role/style.

I mean they have all this data, video evidence and first-hand knowledge of Sissoko and how he plays so they know what to expect from him. The fact that he does play proves that the coaching staff see the value in him.
 

spurs9

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I agree and disagree at the same time. While I do accept it is harder to break into a better team, we still sign and give opportunities to non-international players and squad players. Those are the positions I only suggest young players should get firstly. If they do well then it speaks for itself they will start overtaking first teamers, but I have never advocated dropping a performing first teamer in order to just give a young player a chance. It is counter productive, I want Spurs to win trophies, not to top the academy development table.

I know signing players is not an exact science but I believe certain gambles are more worth it than others, so an example of the two situations above where despite our improvement I believe academy players could have got chances.

Signings
Veljkovic could have got a chance instead of signing Stambouli
Oduwa could have gotten a chance instead of signing N'Jie
Edwards could have gotten a chance instead of signing N'Koudou

The minutes those signings ended up receiving were so miniscule that the above suggestions would not have had an impact on anything. We save money on fees and wages. At worse they don't perform well and we are in no worse a situation. At best they show their full potential adapt perfectly and become World Class. Middle ground we sell on for likely for even larger fees than we paid for the signings. All of that could go to investing money in top class players instead of us constantly saying we can't compete with other clubs. Heck all Poch would have to do is even have carried out one of those scenarios and I'd start to maybe understand the people that praise him, more.

The other option as mentioned, is rewarding our players dominating u21 football with games over serverely underperforming first teamers.

Onomah could have been given a couple of EL games in CM in EL over Paulinho. Capoue, Stambouli in 14/15 or over Sissoko last season.
KWP could have featured in some games or Cups over Davies or Trippier who were being torn into last season.

I don't think any of the above is outrageous. I've listed 5 imo quality players, 4 of who at 18/19/20 are as good or better than Kane was at that age. I don't expect all of them to reach Kane's level, but I reckon at least one after a season or 2 would be considered one of the best players in our first team in their respective position.

The 2nd point about us being better so it's hard to introduce them. Let's say we ignore Barca and Bayern who have managed it. Even looking at the PL in the team directly above us and directly below us, who are in same situations as us. trying to go for CL

Liverpool have given Alexander-Arnold good PL minutes and given other youngsters chances in cups.
Arsenal have given Iwobi and Maitland-Niles starts not to mention various minutes to other players in cups.

So I'm not really sure I buy that reason. I understand and don't expect us to give loads of random minutes to players in Cups like Redknapp an some clubs, but if the players mentioned above aren't good enough. We might as well pack in the academy. If the cream of our crop aren't considered good enough, surely you (and others) agree that the academy revamp and the money spent on it is a massive waste and a failure? If 'were not producing players 'good enough' it's been a massive disappointment and error from Levy especially as it's used as a reason we have to restrict our spending and was intended to produce players for the first team.

Finally, if we say, we can't give them a chance then we don't know what we're missing out on. Even Soldado and Adebayor were bought as big signings who potentially could have completely halted Kane coming through. Why be satisfied with a decent player if you believe you could have a potential superstar in your ranks surely you give them a go.
Whilst I agree with you sentiments to a degree, I don't agree with your player v player examples nor your rivals comparison.

Veljkovic v Stambouli I kind of agree with but, as we only signed the latter a couple of months after Poch joined and since we completely changed the scouting team 4 months after that, I do wonder if Poch had much of an input into that particular signing.

Oduwa didn't have the mentality to play with the first team and I believe his loan spells and move have shown that. N'jie was a poor signing but not one that affected our youngsters IMO.

GKN and Edwards are nothing a like IMO, GKN, I believe was brought in to be a Pacey dribbler that can run at defences to disrupt them, however it has turned out that he gets past players by knocking the ball past the defender rather than actual dribbling which is useless 90% of the time with how we play and how our opponents set up against us.

Liverpool have played Arnold less then we have played Winks and the only other youth player under 24 to play for them was Woodburn who has played less than KWP. Also Arnold is part of the worded defence in the top 10 IMO, so not the best example.

Arsenal failed to achieve top 4 last season and are currently 6th, so also not the best example.

I think my biggest gripe with Poch is that, whilst I agree that work rate is important, too much emphasis is put on it over ability, which is why we have seen Sissoko play over Onomah, Pritchard moved on and Edwards struggle to get game time (though I believe strength has also been a factor here).
 

Bus-Conductor

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So the player referenced in that excerpt is most likely Trippier. I highlighted that quote to show that Poch takes non-compliance of his instructions seriously and will even threaten to get rid of a player who consistently fails to follow said instructions.


Now by no means would anyone call Sissoko dynamic, creative or forward thinking in his play. And yet Sissoko still plays, even though he lacks these skillsets. Which leads me to believe that Poch and the coaching staff are okay and are actually instructing Sissoko to play this limited role/style.

I mean they have all this data, video evidence and first-hand knowledge of Sissoko and how he plays so they know what to expect from him. The fact that he does play proves that the coaching staff see the value in him.

But that doesn't mean it's right. Or even actually following that logic. There are plenty of examples of Poch's walk not quite correlating with his talk. His double standards and treatment of youth players being a prime examples.

The same can be said for other not so clever things that Poch does. Like constantly playing Dier in CM, including with Wanyama last season, that was dreadful, playing Trippier in a back four, high line, high press away at ManC and not his quicker more defensively robust Aurier. You can go all the way back to when he continually played Townsend - including in a cup final - over Lamela, who clearly works harder off the ball as well as being more productive than Townsend.

I think you're hanging way too much weight off a soundbite from a book designed to put Pochettino on a pedestal. I love Poch, but he does plenty of really daft things, and just because he can wax lyrical about them, doesn't make them any less daft.
 

Bus-Conductor

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I think my biggest gripe with Poch is that, whilst I agree that work rate is important, too much emphasis is put on it over ability, which is why we have seen Sissoko play over Onomah, Pritchard moved on and Edwards struggle to get game time (though I believe strength has also been a factor here).
I get that Poch wants to instill standards of off the ball diligence, I like it, but what irritates me is that it's not as if players like Sissoko, Alli, Son etc are exactly paragons of diligence without the ball themselves.


And on your other point, I don't think players necessarily have to be identical to be competing for squad places. Signing players like Njie and Nkoudou definitely puts another body in front of player like Pritchard or Edwards and they see that and know their chances just get slimmer, even though they are not identical, they know an attacking player we sign for 12m is far more likely to get squad time than they are.
 
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Bus-Conductor

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Why? Like it or not, it’s a huge part of how he makes his decisions.
It really isn't. There is absolutely zero evidence of this, and a shitload of evidence to the contrary. And even if this was an absolute truth, why would it be clever ? Ultimately it's what players do on a pitch in real games that matters, not what they do in training, as long as they aren't constantly calling Poch a ****, dropping their trousers and doing a dump on the training pitch penalty spot in the middle of a drill. If Son was on fire all week in training and Kane was pants, you really think Poch would bench Kane and play Son up front ? Would he bollocks. Same goes for any of his favourites, they'd have pull Baumer in training to get dropped:

 

SlumDilla

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But that doesn't mean it's right. Or even actually following that logic. There are plenty of examples of Poch's walk not quite correlating with his talk. His double standards and treatment of youth players being a prime examples.

The same can be said for other not so clever things that Poch does. Like constantly playing Dier in CM, including with Wanyama last season, that was dreadful, playing Trippier in a back four, high line, high press away at ManC and not his quicker more defensively robust Aurier. You can go all the way back to when he continually played Townsend - including in a cup final - over Lamela, who clearly works harder off the ball as well as being more productive than Townsend.

I think you're hanging way too much weight off a soundbite from a book designed to put Pochettino on a pedestal. I love Poch, but he does plenty of really daft things, and just because he can wax lyrical about them, doesn't make them any less daft.
I'm not defending or praising Poch's decisions to play Sissoko, my aim is to show that Sissoko doesn't deserve the full blame for his tepid performances. The purpose of the excerpt was to give some insight as to why Sissoko still features for us, as it seems the coaching staff see nothing wrong with his performances and might actually encourage his playing style.

It also seems that you haven't read the book, so without spoiling it for you I can confirm that there are several times that Poch openly admits that he was wrong and could've done with more insight with some of the decisions he took. He apologizes and notes that these events and scenarios have helped him improve as a coach and a person. Your line about the book's purpose to put "Pochettino on a pedestal" is supremely lazy and does a disservice to how honest he is throughout the whole thing. Give it a read and maybe you'll also have some insight into how he thinks and sees things.
 

Bus-Conductor

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I'm not defending or praising Poch's decisions to play Sissoko, my aim is to show that Sissoko doesn't deserve the full blame for his tepid performances. The purpose of the excerpt was to give some insight as to why Sissoko still features for us, as it seems the coaching staff see nothing wrong with his performances and might actually encourage his playing style.

It also seems that you haven't read the book, so without spoiling it for you I can confirm that there are several times that Poch openly admits that he was wrong and could've done with more insight with some of the decisions he took. He apologizes and notes that these events and scenarios have helped him improve as a coach and a person. Your line about the book's purpose to put "Pochettino on a pedestal" is supremely lazy and does a disservice to how honest he is throughout the whole thing. Give it a read and maybe you'll also have some insight into how he thinks and sees things.
There better be a whole chapter of grovelling apology for the lack of insight in continually picking Sissoko in the revised 2018 edition.
 
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