The 'System'

[TottenhamMattSpur]

That's football being ushered out of the door by this negative dire shite we've been subjected to.

 

[thinktank]

Is that Gazza???

 

[KingKay]

That's football being ushered out of the door by this negative dire shite we've been subjected to.

That's you with your 'constructive' criticism, but whatever floats your boat bro.

 

[yiddopaul]

Out of interest. How long did it take Poch to get Southampton playing as he wanted them? From the off? 6 months?

 

[Spursidol]

Well this for me is the big question.

Are the players simply being a bit crap and not doing as they're told, or is there actually some sort of problem with the way we're trying to play itself.

I suppose it's much too early to tell at this stage...I'm not sure which would be worse!

Think the system only works properly if all the elements are in place.

One of the key elements not in place for me is the quick passing forward - without it our attacking will remain slow and ponderous and by the time we get the ball, the opposition defence is in place, so the attacks will mot be that successful.

Equally with attacks breaking down, the opposition gets the ball and the high line works against us.

So fat we have tended to use a Capoue/Dembele CM partnership in which Dembele does not pass forward, he carries forward so that's not fast. Capoue I'm not sure if he passes forward quickly enough. Stambouli looks a good CM - but its not clear yet if he will pass forward quickly enough. The Capoue/Mason CM partnership in pre-season did look good (admittedly against 2nd class opposition) and pass forward quicly, so I'd like to see Mason at some stage - he was injured just before the Schalke match but back a week ago, so disappointed not to see him involved against Partizan or WBA.

But enough rambling, if Poch will not play a CM duo who pass forward quickly enough, he's got to change other parts of the system such as the high line, otherwise we cannot succeed whatever the players are doing. We need a Plan B which the players can default to if Plan A is not working, and if necessary a Plan C.

Worryingly though the players didn't look that up for it yesterday though - maybe they don't believe in Plan A and haven't been told of Plan B or C, and if so that's a worry

 

[bat-chain]

I think he had it happening after about 5 games but they did have some bad runs first season and some defeats to poor sides. It's all part of the process.

I think some of our players are lazy, probably a shock to Poch just how much it takes to get this lot going.

 

[Ironskullll]

I could stand negative football for a while if it worked and if it provided a foundation for something better. Negative football comes in all shapes and sizes anyway. Retreating to just outside your own box is one form. Thumping the ball forward to an isolated striker once you get it is another form that goes hand in hand. On the other hand, a pressing game that sees you win the ball readily all over the pitch but allied to a risk averse attitude to what you do with it once you have it, well that's negative too. I can put up with any of these if it gets results and lets us breathe a bit before becoming a bit more expansive. I'm suspicious of any approach that appears alien to the players being asked to implement it, negative or otherwise. Horses for courses.

 

[bat-chain]

Another slight issue that I thought was harming us yesterday was having Dier at right back, I like the guy but I think he is a CB.

Playing 4-2-3-1 means the width has to come from fullback, we needed to stretch the play and with Dier there we just couldn't do it down the right. Poch's system will be really helped when Walker is back. I hoped he might bring on Lennon for Dier giving us a pacey threat down the right but he obviously didn't agree.

 

[sickboy_se]

I'd say that in the offence there's been at least hints of the wingers charging the d-line a bit more and there were some attempts at turning from defence to offence quicker during the WBA game. Also I feel Ade isn't dropping deep as much now as he's done in the past.

However as pointed out by others and Poch himself yesterday, we are way too slow when on the ball. Almost every time we get the ball we bring the tempo down which is of course the exact opposite of what we want to do against a team that more or less parks the bus. Once we let them do that we don't have anything in the system to get through, we have to rely on moments of individual brilliance. Eriksen is great but he's no Xavi (yet?), Adebayor can be great but he's no Suarez. Lamela's no Messi. Our DM's can't get the ball from defence to offence quickly enough or with enough quality. We try to play like Barca without having the players to do it. I don't see us being able to get the ball speed up enough without loosing control and quality.

We need to be more direct, faster paced and quite simply a bit more old school. I absolutely believe we have the players to do that a lot better than what we've been trying to do the last few seasons. The few occasions we did against WBA, we felt a lot more dangerous. Might not be saying much but...
Thankfully, I think Poch is good enough to see that too and I think a more direct style of play within the same system is what he's aiming at, there are some hints at that. But it'll take some time of course...

 

[only1waddle]

Every time we play 4231 I die a little bit inside.

That's what I think of the system.

Yeah, Dortmund fans die inside when Klopp sets up like this too.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

Yeah, Dortmund fans die inside when Klopp sets up like this too.

Getting to the champions league final and running Dortmund close for the title can subdue the misery somewhat.

 

[Ribble]

Out of interest. How long did it take Poch to get Southampton playing as he wanted them? From the off? 6 months?

It was about a month I believe, but at Saints he came into a team that actually was a team (that had for the most part spent years together) which he adapted and improved. The job he's walked into here is building something from the ground up with players who still don't really seem to know eachother, it's going to take much longer to actually produce consistent results.

What people need to realise is that pretty much anyone who comes in is going to have to go through this, even if it means taking a step backwards before moving forwards.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

Southampton were on the up when he took over and they appear to have continued an upward curve since he's left.

But must people will ignore those facts.

 

[lenny7]

A bit toothless up front and just haphazard at times at the back.

I think I could have posted that at any time in the last 4-5 years and it would have been relevant. Wearing a bit thin now to be fair.

 

[only1waddle]

There seems to be lots of talk about the right players, and granted under our last 3 "coaches" we have missed someone to move the ball quickly in central midfield, however, i refuse to accept that Poch cant field an 11 to play his pressing game from our squad.
Are people saying he turned up at Southampton and lucked out with some exact matches?
Lallana, Shaw, Ward-Prowse, Lambert, Cork, MS etc, would he have handpicked any of that lot from world football if he started a club from scratch, i doubt it, yet he managed to get them pressing the opposition with ferocity.
I think we wasted a massive opportunity against West Brom to test the pressing game, drawing or losing but seeing a sign of improvement is not a problem, losing without showing any motivation, closing down or working as a team is worrying/disgusting.
I don't think Poch's Philosophy/system is a bad one but something is going wrong with the execution, as others have said @mpickard2087 i think, maybe he is watering it down and feeling his way, similar to AvB, i would rather he went full on, and the first task is giving Ade a kick up the arse or just drop him, the "system" wont work if he doesn't give a shit.

 

[yido_number1]

The QPR game gave us a glimpse of what Poch is about. The players need to work harder and implement it better or move on. The fact people only see limited changes is a good thing. Once the players get what he is implementing it will hopefully mean we see the step change and we improve. If we looked massively different and were getting results like that I would panic...

Its gonna get better we are just going through that teething period... Every one is getting bad results this year at least we are in a transition spell with a new manager.

 

[thinktank]

Out of interest. How long did it take Poch to get Southampton playing as he wanted them? From the off? 6 months?

Yeah, I think whatever it was you can add 6 or more months on for our lot.

 

[zepstar]

We are trying to do that great thing of 'attacking as a unit, defending as a unit'. There is a high line being played for sure. But that is preferable to Martin Jol's deep defences who gave me a heart attach from the 60th minute onwards.

 

[only1waddle]

Yeah, I think whatever it was you can add 6 or more months on for our lot.

I think your right, i do wonder looking at our lot sometimes whether they like football, i know i read an interview with Dembele where he said he gets bored watching all 90 minutes of games, and Walker only really plays Fifa, not sure why i have bought this up, it's made me feel more miserable

 

[shelfboy68]

That's football being ushered out of the door by this negative dire shite we've been subjected to.

Is that joe Lewis being shown the door by Caine hoy.