The 'System'

[shelfmonkey]

Maybe the players dont fit in poch's system, so maybe poch needs to implement a system that suits and gets the best out of each player. Round pegs, round holes and all that. Coz at the mo it aint working for Mopo!!

 

[whitelanefever]

There seems to be lots of talk about the right players, and granted under our last 3 "coaches" we have missed someone to move the ball quickly in central midfield, however, i refuse to accept that Poch cant field an 11 to play his pressing game from our squad.
Are people saying he turned up at Southampton and lucked out with some exact matches?
Lallana, Shaw, Ward-Prowse, Lambert, Cork, MS etc, would he have handpicked any of that lot from world football if he started a club from scratch, i doubt it, yet he managed to get them pressing the opposition with ferocity.
I think we wasted a massive opportunity against West Brom to test the pressing game, drawing or losing but seeing a sign of improvement is not a problem, losing without showing any motivation, closing down or working as a team is worrying/disgusting.
I don't think Poch's Philosophy/system is a bad one but something is going wrong with the execution, as others have said @mpickard2087 i think, maybe he is watering it down and feeling his way, similar to AvB, i would rather he went full on, and the first task is giving Ade a kick up the arse or just drop him, the "system" wont work if he doesn't give a shit.

I think at Southampton he had player's who were willing to work & wanted to learn & improve as players, at Spurs I think there are a few who think they have made it & if it's to much hard graft, they don't want to know as they know the manager will take the fall in the end & there been let get away with it.. that's been proven when Andre wanted Ade gone, Levy interfered & undermined Andre & the message that sends out to the others in the team is we have power & can get away with it. This needs to stop straight away & players with the attitude of putting the effort in when they feel like it kicked out of the club.

 

[duffman22]

There have been glimpses of the system but I think the problem has been that we have been wildly inconsistent across the 5 league games in terms of application.

Against QPR and Sunderland we were very impressive and looked well drilled. Both performances were easily better than the majority of displays last year. Okay QPR were shit but I do think that performance would have been good enough to beat most teams in the league comfortably.

On the other hand, against Liverpool and West Brom we were completely uninspiring and lacked any sort of energy whatsoever. You could have put both performances into last season and they wouldn't have looked out of place.

West Ham is hard to judge. Yes we were on the backfoot in the first half, but truth be told I don't think either side was particularly dominant or deserved to win. Considering we had a man less for 30 mins I don't think you can complain too much.

Overall I think the Liverpool and WBA games are proof that it's not easy to drill old habits out of players. Dembele is a prime example. Completely bossed it against Sunderland, dominating the ball with purpose in midfield. However yesterday back to the old AVB days of playing with his head down and holding onto the ball too long.

I think the key for Poch will depend on how many of the current group can not just buy into his ideas but have the actual versatility to apply them consistently. They've shown in a couple of games that they can do it in spells, but they've also shown that they can't shake their own bad habits or the habits of previous regimes. I think a few of those who played yesterday may just lack the versatility to change their game to suit our style on a week to week basis and those are the ones who, regardless of natural ability, may well find themselves on the fringes in a few months time.

 

[DiscoD1882]

We have signed 13 odd players and sold a bucket load of the old guard. We are lacking identity and familiarity at the moment. The more they play. The better we will get. I don't think it is the system. Just the dreaded transitional period. I'm not concerning myself with results at the moment. After 15 games I will reassess.

 

[The Scarecrow]

Southampton were on the up when he took over and they appear to have continued an upward curve since he's left.

But must people will ignore those facts.

And as always, you are one of the few who know the real truth.

 

[rocklink]

even if we play 442, 460 or 046 , these players will fail.... they just don't have the correct mindset ...Without correct mentality and mindset , no formation will ever work... these players just don't move their asses enough to spread any minimal fear among opposition defenders.... Our off the ball movement suck ...

Also how come ade became our vice captain questions a lot about MOPO'S judgement !!

 

[VoteMe4Prez]

The one thing I know needs to happen is a January clearout and installation of a few new faces

 

[ItsBoris]

The QPR game gave us a glimpse of what Poch is about. The players need to work harder and implement it better or move on. The fact people only see limited changes is a good thing. Once the players get what he is implementing it will hopefully mean we see the step change and we improve. If we looked massively different and were getting results like that I would panic...

Its gonna get better we are just going through that teething period... Every one is getting bad results this year at least we are in a transition spell with a new manager.

The QPR game was a false dawn imo, they were also beaten 4-0 by Man United who haven't won any other games. They're just a terrible team with a very bad (imo though I know people will disagree) manager. Recipe for disaster.

I'm actually wondering if our players are actually intelligent enough to implement new ideas. Unfortunately, the best attacking football we've seen has been under "Go out there and have a go at 'em" Redknapp and Sherwood. Of course it was coupled with absolutely horrendous defending but it's quite telling that our players have shown themselves to be better playing with no plan or strategy at all rather than trying to play in a system. Have to feel sorry for AVB and Poch imo, it's probably like trying to teach Calculus to a braindead person.

 

[SandroClegane]

Most people said it would take 6 months for us to see improvement under poch and were prepared to wait and see this develop... and then we had a few tough games and now the sky is falling and people want poch out. For fuck sake.

 

[jolsnogross]

Most people said it would take 6 months for us to see improvement under poch and were prepared to wait and see this develop... and then we had a few tough games and now the sky is falling and people want poch out. For fuck sake.

Who wants Poch out?

 

[jolsnogross]

I'm actually wondering if our players are actually intelligent enough to implement new ideas. Unfortunately, the best attacking football we've seen has been under "Go out there and have a go at 'em" Redknapp and Sherwood. Of course it was coupled with absolutely horrendous defending but it's quite telling that our players have shown themselves to be better playing with no plan or strategy at all rather than trying to play in a system. Have to feel sorry for AVB and Poch imo, it's probably like trying to teach Calculus to a braindead person.

It's way too early to be lumping Poch in with AVB, so we'll take Poch out of the equation.

But this is brain dead thinking. The idea that AVB had a system and Redknapp and Sherwood didn't is complete bullshit. Redknapp is the best modern manager we've had and had us playing and winning like a top 4 side, and got us into the top 4 doing it. Sherwood got us scoring again because he knows you have to take a risk to win a game. And he knows you have to have a bit of urgency, grit, and battling spirit because it isn't a computer game. You have to manage men and create a collective urgency and will to win. Harry did a great job of team building, Sherwood did a lesser job but at least got us firing again to a certain extent.

AVB, on the other hand, was a disaster. Maybe he impressed you with his impression that the game is akin to chess or calculus, but you'd both be wrong there. His 'emperor with no clothes' routine got found out at Chelsea and then us. The ingenious 'system' you so long for was to produce slow crappy football without purpose or direction, leading to lofty possession stats and no chances created or goals scored.

Bringing Poch back into it, his main job now for the season is to undo the legacy of AVB. It won't be an easy task, because the lack of leadership, spirit and attacking effervescence was systematically removed during the transition to AVB's side from Harry's. But he could take a leaf from Redknapp and Sherwood by focusing on the number of quality chances we create rather than adopting the "building something" bullshit we had to listen to from and regarding AVB.

 

[Imnotacticalgenius]

I hope that fans can give Poch 2 full years at least to implement a system that will be the hallmark of Spurs football for many generations to come. Time which AVB was not given.I wonder if people are aware that it takes time to implement a footballing system especially if Poch is advocating a style which is somewhat similar or a variant of what AVB was trying to implement with the players at his disposal. Even if Spurs went for FDB, it would be the same issue all over again, mainly due to the players Spurs have at present.

Has anyone ever think the similarity of both of them in wanting 1. Schnerderlin/Moutinho, wanting 2. Hulk/J Rodriguez? In this system, it is important to have the likes of Schnerderlin or Moutinho or Modric as the "metronome" of the team. The one who keeps the ball moving and always looking for the fast forward pass, if the opportunity arises. Well, at least Spurs have managed to get Stambouli. I believe the team will click better, when Stambouli rises to the occasion and be that metronome in the centre of Spurs midfield. For the WF position, it would be interesting if Spurs will go back for J Rodriguez in Jan 15. If not, i think Chadli can play that role almost as well if given, a sustain run at playing that role.

My first issue and concern is Adebayor. I do not think he has the positional discipline to play as the "lone striker" well. Often he goes to midfield to receive the ball (everywhere in midfield) and is slow to move centrally in the forward position after releasing the ball. So when Spurs have the Wing backs or either one of Lamela or Chadli crossing the ball, Ade will be nowhere taking up dangerous position in the penalty area. Do take note that the crossing from the Wing Position has improved now, as compared during AVB time (Well, it can be said that AVB prefer inverted wingers, but the truth is that Dier/Naughton cross better than Walker and Rose doing a rather good job). Giving Ade the team V Captain role might be a problem, if things does not get better. I see Harry Kane as being a better Striker in this system (if given playing time) than Ade. Soldado might not fit into the lone striker role. Most probably not.

Another player that im worried is Eriksen. I think he will struggle for a while. Even when he was playing in Ajax (in a slower paced league), he was not asked (rather he did not press relentlessly) to press relentlessly, that was the job of the others. This is evident now and as when the little time he was playing under AVB. Eriksen are asked to press (so as the 4 forward players) and be physical, if Spurs are to get back the ball, right after losing it. If you have noticed, only Lamela presses relentlessly, Chadli doing a rather good job too, but not as relentless as Lamela. Eriksen and Adebayor does not press with conviction. You see, the system needs all players to press as a team to work well. As a comparison, see the similarities in AVB Porto and Poch Southampton. If you remember, Spurs pressed well as a team, in the first few games of last season. Only Soldado did not press 100% last season, in that first few games. When Eriksen was introduced in the team, the pressing/harrassing when a notch further down. For the time being, i think getting Harry Kane to replace Ade will make the pressing tactics better (its not as Ade is lighting the football world right now, but it might be potentially big problem since he is a V Captain now).

For defense, i think the main CB pairing will be Fazio and Verts at the end of the season. Maybe these will play more important games at the beginning of next year. Im glad that Rose has buckled down and shown that he is a quality LB. Remember he was playing very well in the first few games of last season before he was out injured......came back not really fit and playing under a "manager" that was not respected by most of the players.

I urge that the fans, club and chairman give Poch 2 years to implement a successful playing system (and those players that have problem getting used to this system, needs to move on. Not all at once but 2 or 3 each transfer window, if need too), an footballing ethos that will bring Spurs to another level in the future. Be patient........remember, Rome was not built in a day.

 

[SaKkA.kenchiku]

I am nervous the players are not the correct fit to Poch's system but its far too early to tell. Hopefully not.

One thing I feel is that (and i think its a positive) we have seen an increase in individual players high pressing work-rate, in particular Lamela and Eriksen. However its currently only individual pressing and that ends up making it easier for the other team to move the ball around leaving space in behind the midfield. Making us look like cones in training.

The reason I think this is a positive is that I am hopeful this is should be the first steps towards a cohesive team press, which at this level will be much more effective at off-balancing the opposition on the ball. Pressing as a team needs timing, understanding and trust the other members go together and at the right time. This is the part that will take much more time and maybe the 6months Schneiderlin suggested in a recent interview (I think). My concern on this also is that the players dont see result quick enough and stop believing in the team press and then it will almost certainly fail and Poch wont be at Spurs long. Another reason not signing Schneiderlin has me concerned.

In terms of moving the ball quicker, possibly this will be helped by retrieving the ball back from the opposition quickly and not allowing them to reset and sit behind the ball, but on this part I am not sure. I am also not sure how Poch plans to get us to move the ball quicker and whether it has anything to do with the high press.

EDIT: Not sure why I have highlighted Schneiderlin's name :dead: its a mistake..

 

[Lawrence]

I know I know. Start a new game during training. Get the ball into the net (from gk to their net) in 3 min or do 30 push ups. You can alternate between long balls allowed and no long balls allowed. Haha.

Or lose a week's salary if you don't score in 5 min. That will stoke some fires!

 

[WestBelfast Spurs]

don't think Poch knows his best team yet!!!

 

[Reece]

The thing that gets me is the 4-2-3-1 all the time. I can only recall a handful of games where we've looked half decent playing it. I'm not sure whether the persistence with this formation is going to pay off. Do we have the players to play it well consistently and successfully?

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

And as always, you are one of the few who know the real truth.

I'm the Oracle.

 

[Kaboul'sForehead]

Anyone that wants Poch out already is, quite frankly, a jelly brain.

He was the most passionate person at the Lane against WBA and his anger at the players suggests less that they are bad players and more that he knows they have the ability and can play better than they did.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

The thing that gets me is the 4-2-3-1 all the time. I can only recall a handful of games where we've looked half decent playing it. I'm not sure whether the persistence with this formation is going to pay off. Do we have the players to play it well consistently and successfully?

Bit like United getting beat all the time playing 352
If it don't work, fix it.

It took Porsche 40 years to make a supercar with the engine in the wrong place work.
Our engine is in the wrong place and we don't have 40 more years to make it work.

 

[RJ1882]

I think he needs to bite the bulet on phasing players in and just pick what he thinks will be his strongest team and stick to it.
For me I'd have Fazio, Davies, Stambouli all in and playing. Davies is a better defender than Rose if perhaps slightly less attacking. Fazio will dominate in the air and Stambouli will give us that Scott PArker type worker in the middle. Build from the back. Clean sheets install confidence.
I think/hope/dream (deluded perhaps) Lamela, Eriksen and Soldado can strike up an understanding. All intelligent footballers. Lamela and Soldado already look like they have somethign there. Eriksen & Lamela too. As a front 3 i think they can work.
The rest are a bit meh. Dier or Naughton until Walker returns, Vertonghen for me CB, Dembele/Capoue in the middle and any of Lennon/Chadli/Townsend beside Eriksen and Lamela.

We've a tough week, I expect nothing from Arsenal. And it'll be the first 'our season starts now' false dawn after the Arse game.

I'm trying not to be too concerned with league form if I am honest. This season is about building a brand of football and going all out in the cups.