Tim Sherwood on Harry Kane

[Blake Griffin]

he wouldn't get in any pl sides so another season with millwall or somewhere else in the championship would be good for him.

 

[hellava_tough]

I seem to remember he lacks pace

However, if we play a high defensive line with AVB, pushing the opposition back, he may not need any pace

 

[StartingPrice]

Well if he gets 500 minutes of football in the next six months for any premier league team, which is an optimistic prediction, then thats not as good as the 2 thousand he could acquire in the championship in the same time frame. Walker, Naughton and Caulker were FAR different, they were already proven, Kane isn't. So i'll be shocked if any Premier League manager will take Kane on loan and play him regularly. Not going to happen.

A striker needs games, he needs to be getting the games in and learning how to play football. Theres no way Kane plays significant minutes in the premier league for anyone, the only chance he has is our 7 or 8 cup games in the next 6 months. Which will be against similar level to Championship opposition.

Needs to be loaned out, will get 4 times as much football for Millwall than he would anywhere else and funnily enough footballers need to play football.

I understood the argument about a striker needing games the first time you made it

The point is that he has already spent time on loan at lower league clubs and clearly the management feel that it is not going to benefit us to keep hold of players for year after year and sending them out year after year to lower league clubs that show nothing about whether he will be able to perform at OUR level. All that does is keeps a player who probably won't ever play for us on our payroll, and has happened far too much in the past.

He may not be a starter for us in the league - but there again I never said he would, I said I suspected (as in suspected not knew), that they may be considering keeping an eye on him in training, seeing how he performs in the Europa and Cups, and maybe given some time on the benchfor the wholly logical reason that AVB fashions his teams to put in a lot of crosses and they maywant to see if he is the type of player to benefit from that.

I never said he would go to an EPL team on loan, I said they may then put him out on loan maybe trying to get him into an EPL side. And how do you know that couldn't happen? If he had impressed enough by Chirstmas there may be struggling clubs looking for loanees willing to take a chance on him. Or we might opt to keep him if he really has impressed. Or, he may eventually go to a Championship side.

I didn't say he was exactly the same as Walker, Caulker and Naughton - though were you get the far different from beats me. He is a bit younger than them, so it may be pertinent to loan him out to a Championship side for one year before seeing if he is ready for an EPL loan. That would make him...a year (approx.) younger than them, but on the same curve of development (just a year further back on it) - which is, after all, what I said, not that he was exactly the same for them.

Ultimately, we are talking on a different tack - I am doing my best to explain why messers Sherwood and AVB may be doing what they are, you are suggesting you know what will happen and they are doing it wrong. As I suggested, above, it is probably that Sherwood has told AVB where Kane is in his progress and they have discussed the matter and come to the conclusion that keeping him at the Lane, keeping a close eye on him, playing him in the Europa and CC(maybe, we don't yet know how seriously AVB will take these comps and what type of team he will send out), and maybe put him on the bench for some EPL games. No offence intended but, TBH, I think they know what they are doing and I am haoppy that they are doing it this way.

You are right, players (sic.) need to play, but clubs need to assess by a certain age which of their young players are likely to be able to play for THFC - which do you think we should prioritise?

 

[Phil_2.0]

I don't know why you have written 6 paragraphs to say, 'Let AVB take a look at him and assess what hes got'.

Its fairly simple. Kane won't get in any Premier League team at all. So whats the point of keeping hold of him? He might get 5 or 6 games out of 8 Cup matches providing we get through the first round of the League Cup. Well its not worth it in comparison to the obvious option of sending him back to the Championship, to Millwall, where hes highly thought of and will get the games and goals.

So yeah Tim Sherwood is stupid here. Kane did well, but hes going to have to go back to the Championship at some point to progress anywhere in his career, cos noone in the top flight will play him

 

[StartingPrice]

I don't know why you have written 6 paragraphs to say, 'Let AVB take a look at him and assess what hes got'.

Its fairly simple. Kane won't get in any Premier League team at all. So whats the point of keeping hold of him? He might get 5 or 6 games out of 8 Cup matches providing we get through the first round of the League Cup. Well its not worth it in comparison to the obvious option of sending him back to the Championship, to Millwall, where hes highly thought of and will get the games and goals.

So yeah Tim Sherwood is stupid here. Kane did well, but hes going to have to go back to the Championship at some point to progress anywhere in his career, cos noone in the top flight will play him

I wrote six paragraphs to answer your post point by point - see that's how you debate proppa

I don't see why you wrote any paragraphs to not answer any of my points at all.
Yeah, you said you somehow know that he won't get any minutes in the EPL. Why not just refer me back to your earlier post?
Yeah, you said approx. how many cup games he would get. Why not just refer me back to your earlier post?
Yeah you said that it wasn't worht keeping him in comparison to sending him out on loan to a Championship side, myself and the management team disagree - that was, believe it or not, the point of me disagreeing with your post in the first place.

Sherwood is stupid here, is he? = When will you be turning pro?

Yeah, you said you thought he was going to have to go back to the Champioship at some stage to progress anywhere in his career - my answer was that it does the club no good at all continually sending players out to lower levels when we need to know if they will be good enogh to play at our level and, if you had followed the young man's career you would know, he has already been out to lower levels on loan. But you would have known that was my answer if you had read my post rather than assuming that because I disagreed with you it was because I didn't understand and just needed you to tell me again.

How do you knowo-one in the top flight will play him - are you a scout for an EPL team or summit?

To summarize - I didn't actually say let AVB 'ave a look at 'im - I said they might want to see how far he can be if use at our level now and I am sure this has been done in consultation with Mr Sherwood, who has worked with him for a few years now. It might turn out to be the wrong decision, but I don;t see how you can state that it is right now.

 

[jackson]

It's pretty clear that what Sherwood is saying is that he's been loaned out at Championship level but now's the time to see if he can make the step up to the Premiership level - keep him around the club to be assessed alongside the first team to allow him to sink or swim.

If he doesn't cut it he'll be moved on - no point just repeatidly loaning players to the Championship and saying 'yep he's decent in the Championship' at some point they need to be given a chance to cut it in the Prem/first team so we and they can move on if they cant...

Seems to make sense to me.

 

[StartingPrice]

It's pretty clear that what Sherwood is saying is that he's been loaned out at Championship level but now's the time to see if he can make the step up to the Premiership level - keep him around the club to be assessed alongside the first team to allow him to sink or swim.

If he doesn't cut it he'll be moved on - no point just repeatidly loaning players to the Championship and saying 'yep he's decent in the Championship' at some point they need to be given a chance to cut it in the Prem/first team so we and they can move on if they cant...

Seems to make sense to me.

Exactly.
The dead give away is that Sherwood points to the fact that he has already been successful when loaned out at the lower level. What is the point of repeatedly doing that:

Sherwood: I'm loaning Kane to Milwall.

AVB: Has he been loaned out at that level before?

Sherwood: Yes!

AVB: Was he successful?

Sherwood: Yes!

AVB: So, if we loan him out at this level again, will it show that he can succeed at our level?

Sherwood: Er...no...no.

AVB: So, if we loan him out at that level again, what will we find out?

Sherwood: That he can be successful at that level...

<INSERT TUMBLEWEED>

As I said above, we have gone down that route of keeping hold of players until their were in their mid-twenties loaning them out again and again to lower league clubs and then, eventually, just moving them on without putting them into the first team squad, because they weren't good enough. What is the point in that?

 

[kaz Hirai]

who had the signature "if Kane makes it in the EPL i'll eat my underpants"?

Think I said i'd eat my liver if he establishes himself as a prem striker

this was after seeing him play 5 games, 4 in the Europa against woeful opposition. only saw a total lack of pace, little to no vision or technical skill, no dribbling magic, not stinging shots, no stregnth or hold up, not great movement etc

he's young and some of this stuff he can pick up and develop, and he has some great players to learn from, even advice from defoe on how to be a greedy shite would be helpful.

I remember the game in the Europa when he was paired with pav. Now pav got almighty abuse that night and rightly so. All of his shit 20 plus shoots ended up some in low orbit. But the thing was Pav had the brain to drop deep and find space, and drift around and find the time to shoot terribly. Kane just didnt really do anything

But Kane is a Spurs player which automatically makes him one of my Favourite footballers on the planet, and I hope he does make it, and I dine on my own liver with a touch of peri peri sauce

 

[eddiebailey]

The line seems to be that once a player has a had a successful loan at Championship level let's try him in the Prem. I hope that does not mean that if he struggles in the Prem we will write him off. Kane is, what 19? He still has the potential to go on learning, and he is going to learn more playing first team football in the Championship than he would in our reserves. Huddlestone, Naughton and Walker were all bought from Championship clubs where they were shining and then loaned straight back to continue their education.

 

[jackson]

Exactly.
The dead give away is that Sherwood points to the fact that he has already been successful when loaned out at the lower level. What is the point of repeatedly doing that:

Sherwood: I'm loaning Kane to Milwall.

AVB: Has he been loaned out at that level before?

Sherwood: Yes!

AVB: Was he successful?

Sherwood: Yes!

AVB: So, if we loan him out at this level again, will it show that he can succeed at our level?

Sherwood: Er...no...no.

AVB: So, if we loan him out at that level again, what will we find out?

Sherwood: That he can be successful at that level...

<INSERT TUMBLEWEED>

As I said above, we have gone down that route of keeping hold of players until their were in their mid-twenties loaning them out again and again to lower league clubs andthen, eventually, just moving them on without putting them into the first team squad, because they weren't good enough. What is the point in that?

Yep, its a good 'change of tact' to use his words. I like that Sherwood wants to give these players a chance with the first team before writing them off as well - I dont actually believe that Kane will ever be a regular first team player for us but after paying their dues in the lower leagues the youngsters need to be given the chance to see if they can step up. If they cant cut it, at least they had their chance with the club.

It's good for them and good for the club to be seen to give youth a chance, "if you work hard you'll be given a chance to make it with us - then its upto you to grab the chance!", surely this will only filter down in a positive manner to the rest of the academy and potential future academy/youth signings.

 

[Wolver]

Getting game time is obviously very important, but there is also a lot that he can learn just from training with the first team. Being around players of a higher quality could do wonders for him. Look at Livermore, he didn't exactly set the world alight when he was on loan, but giving him a bit of trust and responsibility in the first team really helped him push on.

 

[StartingPrice]

The line seems to be that once a player has a had a successful loan at Championship level let's try him in the Prem. I hope that does not mean that if he struggles in the Prem we will write him off. Kane is, what 19? He still has the potential to go on learning.

Part of me agrees, and I am forever despairing at those on SC who perpetually write young players off on the flimsiest of evidence. But, on the other hand, as said above, we have also had players into their mid-twenties, sending them out on one lower league loan after another, and then deciding they were never gonna cut it anyway. That is a waste of the clubs finances, could actually hinder a young players career, and, most importantly, is a waste of a clubs finances!!! (to emphasise that I have repeated myself deliberately).

I guess this means that we may identify a few players younger and we may let a few more go who come on later in their careers than we would if we kept them all into their mid-twenties. I guess it's all a matter of balancing the pros and the cons. All clubs miss a few players who develop later in their careers, so it's gonna happen anyway - but would we lose significantly more? I think that is the vital question.

Anyway, this is all supposition, we don't know that Sherwood is gonna ditch him if he can't step up in the next six months, just like we don't know that he won't step up if given the chance, or, alternatively sink like a stone.

Kaz - I don't think he was anywhere near as dire in the Europa as you are painting him - he did show a couple of times, and, besides, we know he was utilised correctly, or if Pav was already taking up space he would normally take, whether he would performed better with better players, or, how much more confident he woulda been if he had scored.

 

[Bobbins]

Think I said i'd eat my liver if he establishes himself as a prem striker

this was after seeing him play 5 games, 4 in the Europa against woeful opposition. only saw a total lack of pace, little to no vision or technical skill, no dribbling magic, not stinging shots, no stregnth or hold up, not great movement etc

he's young and some of this stuff he can pick up and develop, and he has some great players to learn from, even advice from defoe on how to be a greedy shite would be helpful.

I remember the game in the Europa when he was paired with pav. Now pav got almighty abuse that night and rightly so. All of his shit 20 plus shoots ended up some in low orbit. But the thing was Pav had the brain to drop deep and find space, and drift around and find the time to shoot terribly. Kane just didnt really do anything

But Kane is a Spurs player which automatically makes him one of my Favourite footballers on the planet, and I hope he does make it, and I dine on my own liver with a touch of peri peri sauce

Kane was trying to play up top, as he'd clearly been told. Pav was the biggest pile of digshit I've ever seen on a pitch in almost all the Europa games he played, and constantly ran into Kane's space and gave the ball away non-stop, while Kane worked his arse off to get around the pitch and try and play Pav into dangerous areas. Trouble for him was Pav couldn't be fucked to run into any dangerous areas (unless Kane was already in them) and made some of Kane's passes go astray by simply not bothering to move two feet forward.

I was furious with Pav for playing so lazily and badly during those games, but even more furious with him for giving 18 year old Kane no support whatsoever, when he was clearly in the team to try and help him integrate.

That Russian mug has a lot to answer for.

Fortunately Kane went to Millwall and was an absolute beast, I saw him play live three times and he was brilliant, and the reports from my Millwall mates were equally positive. They were desperate to get him back next season and are absolutely gutted they won't be able to. They were hoping Kane and Keogh would become their regular starting pair. Kane also forced Jackett to leave Darius Henderson, who'd already scored 16 goals, on the bench as he didn't want to break him and Keogh up. He also played Kane in midfield in four games so his scoring record is even more impressive.

Also consider he was playing for a frankly shit Championship side who massively struggled for goals until he joined them. He scored all types of goals as well which is encouraging.

The one thing he lacks is pace, but so does Defoe, so did Pav, so did Keane, so did Berba, and Kane looks like he could have a lot more assets to his game than Jermain does. In fact bar Ade we haven't had a striker with any real pace for years so does that really matter much if you're playing as a proper centre forward?

 

[StartingPrice]

Fortunately Kane went to Millwall and was an absolute beast, I saw him play live three times and he was brilliant, and the reports from my Millwall mates were equally positive. They were desperate to get him back next season and are absolutely gutted they won't be able to. They were hoping Kane and Keogh would become their regular starting pair. Kane also forced Jackett to leave Darius Henderson, who'd already scored 16 goals, on the bench as he didn't want to break him and Keogh up. He also played Kane in midfield in four games so his scoring record is even more impressive

This...THIS disturbes me

 

[Bobbins]

Top lads, even if their knuckles are a bit grazed...

 

[lukespurs7]

He was awful, average at best in the game I've seen him play in Europa league.
Either he will have had to improve massively OR the excuse of having to play with a random botch job of a team each week he played will have had to be a big influence on his poor form otherwise cant see him getting anywhere near our first team.

 

[OmarsComing]

.

The one thing he lacks is pace, but so does Defoe, so did Pav, so did Keane, so did Berba, and Kane looks like he could have a lot more assets to his game than Jermain does. In fact bar Ade we haven't had a striker with any real pace for years so does that really matter much if you're playing as a proper centre forward?

Ade is slow as fuck, I wouldnt be surprised if Berba was faster.

 

[Bobbins]

He was awful, average at best in the game I've seen him play in Europa league.
Either he will have had to improve massively OR the excuse of having to play with a random botch job of a team each week he played will have had to be a big influence on his poor form otherwise cant see him getting anywhere near our first team.

OR... you watched him in one game, and are completely pre-judging him with no real idea of his form or abilities.

And you also clearly haven't bothered reading the posts of anyone who has actually watched him play.

 

[spud]

"But I think there might be a chance of tact......"

I don't suppose it's worth pointing out that this should be 'change of tack' and not 'tact'?

No?

Thought not.

 

[spurious1]

Well, he has impressed enough of the football professionals in our set-up for him to be considered for the first team, so he must not be as pants as some think...it's certainly true that in the few games I've seen him in he seemed lost a lot of the time, but that can be an experience issue.

Does anyone know what exactly Sherwood's role is meant to be ? Is he director of football by a different name? Is he above, below, or equal to AVB in the hierarchy?