Tottenham Physios/Medical Staff/ Athletic Improvements

[jambreck]

Because just watching a doctor makes one an expert! Sorry, but if you are not a doctor yourself, you have no fucking clue what you are talking. He's speculating.

No. Watching a doctor doesn't make anyone an expert. Besides, no one mentioned anything about slumdilla being an expert. Just that he knows what he's talking about.

Moreover, since you clearly weren't paying attention, slumdilla isn't just someone who has watched a doctor. He's a Sports Medicine major who has also done internships at MLS clubs.

So, yes, he knows what he's talking about far more than you or I. So please............enough of your shit.

I am speculating. I am on one side. He is on the other. I am of the belief that their is a clear issue with the medical staff. No offense to the OP, but we just have differing opinions.

Your opinions are based on ignorance and on failing to notice what actually goes on at other clubs.

His basis for saying that we have a great medical staff is the Muamba thing. But they did not exactly save Muamba's life like he is insinuating. They had a role in it. The one who deserves the most credit is the cardiologist Spurs supporter who was in the stands that day, came down and was with him the whole time who fought with the staff and ambulence to have him transported to his hospital which was better equipped to handle the issue instead of the closer one wich they were going to take Muamba to. Yes, I read up on the whole thing.

Once again, you clearly weren't paying attention if you think that slumdilla's claim was based on the Muamba incident. He merely mentioned that as one example of what they do.

His post sought nothing more than to debunk the myths (that you've clearly bought fully into) that are routinely trotted out about sports medicine in general and, specifically on this message board, about Spurs' medical and physio team.

 

[EQP]

Because just watching a doctor makes one an expert! Sorry, but if you are not a doctor yourself, you have no fucking clue what you are talking. He's speculating. I am speculating. I am on one side. He is on the other. I am of the belief that their is a clear issue with the medical staff. No offense to the OP, but we just have differing opinions.

His basis for saying that we have a great medical staff is the Muamba thing. But they did not exactly save Muamba's life like he is insinuating. They had a role in it. The one who deserves the most credit is the cardiologist Spurs supporter who was in the stands that day, came down and was with him the whole time who fought with the staff and ambulence to have him transported to his hospital which was better equipped to handle the issue instead of the closer one wich they were going to take Muamba to. Yes, I read up on the whole thing.

I'm actually a Sports Medicine student in college , the only reason i even wrote this all up is because i've actually interned at MLS clubs and visited some teams overseas to actually talk and learn from other Strength and Conditioning coaches/ sports science experts. What i wrote is a combination of what i've seen , experienced and what i've heard from professionals in the field.

As for the Muamba case, i quoted you on the in the daily ITK and wrote that response in a hurry i didn't have time to go into detail as why the ITK claiming the medical staff were incompetent should be taken with a grain of salt. Then i decided let me make a thread outlining the factors that lead to injuries/more time off. The Muamba case was not a defining part of my post , infact let me take out the Muamba line out of my original post and see how the paragraph reads.

As much as we would like to blame them for players being out longer than expected, they rarely deserve the blame. They are good (if not great) at what they do. The same guys that insisted the Hugo go off the field but AVB decided otherwise! THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING! You really think Levy would sanction a new training center, buy players of value and then assemble a bunch of clowns to look and care for his investments THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING! Alot of people fail to realize just how demanding the world of sports medicine is. Dealing with constant change from new training regimes and equipment, they have to stay up to date to ensure that the players are getting the best and most applicable form of treatment available. AGAIN THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.And if you doubt that they do know what they are doing , here is a video of Wayne Diesel, Head of Medical Services at Tottenham, delivering a seminar on "Eccentric Rehab"...if you feel you understand more than half the information he's delivering maybe you should be the Tottenham physio instead

 

[EQP]

Nice one. Enjoying your comments.

I appreciate that!

 

[EQP]

Yes, i was agreeing with what you have been saying in this thread.

Thanks! Just wanted to share where i got my info from and a few few things fan might not have known.

 

[EQP]

Arsenal players always take longer to come back from injuries than ours

Look at Wilshere recently and Ramsey now

Yes, its becoming a trend with those two. Also when VanPersie was at Arsenal he would suffer long layoffs. I think he's seen 3 or 4 different specialists to help with his recurring injuries.

 

[EQP]

I just remembered another factor that can lead to player injuries

Managers/ Headcoaches set in their way- I remember a case where we received new equipment and were to do baseline testing with the players for the upcoming season. The Head Coach of the club wasn't to sure about this because he felt all this new tech was just a distraction (and also he didn't understand how to interpret the data). So we tried our best to make the data easy to digest for everyone. We made tables showing HR/HR AVG/ WK LOAD/ CALS/TIME etc, for a 1 week or so everything seemed good. Unbeknownst to us the Head Coach was looking at HR after each session and giving the players he perceived with lower HR's more work to do because he felt they weren't working hard enough in training. We began to see an increase in muscular strains soon after without knowing the cause until one of the players remarked that he had to cut down on a strength session to do some extra cardio work that the coach had issued. We were baffled because the player in question was in the top 3 fittest players in the team!! So we asked the coach what the reasoning was behind the extra work and he said something on the lines off " Because they had low HR'S after my training sessions, which means that they were being lazy!!". So we had to clear up all the confusion and let him know that he had to take into effect Workload when looking at HR and that a lower HR in this case was indicative of high level of cardiovascular efficiency (extremely fit). He was not thrilled that he was wrong and decided that we stop using the charts because he didn't appreciate not knowing what the information meant and to him it was superfluous

So we stopped with the charts but still recorded after each session for our records so we could go back and see how to best to approach each strength session and recovery for each player.

Sometimes managers/head coaches are unwilling to adapt to new methods of player improvement and insist the old ways of "make em run till they puke" will reap more benefits. It is at times an uphill struggle to sell true scientific methods of improvement to them because they have already been successful without them.

 

[Geyzer Soze]

I think we'll all agree that there is just one way forward.

Sign the Chelsea Physio

EDIT: Photo of wrong person taken out!

 

[yido_number1]

I think we'll all agree that there is just one way forward.

Sign the Chelsea Physio

View attachment 10230

We'd end up with a lot of groin and wrist strains!

 

[Scarlet57]

I think we'll all agree that there is just one way forward.

Sign the Chelsea Physio

View attachment 10230

That isn't Eva Carneiro.

 

[Geyzer Soze]

That isn't Eva Carneiro.

Yeah. I think that i made a mistake. when googling her you get those pics claiming to be her, but it seems that it actually isn't!

Still ...

(Trying really hard to find one of her NOT in a chavski kit!)

 

[biscuitbeck]

That isn't Eva Carneiro.

Don't care, sign her up regardless

 

[EQP]

Yeah. I think that i made a mistake. when googling her you get those pics claiming to be her, but it seems that it actually isn't!

Still ...

(Trying really hard to find one of her NOT in a chavski kit!)

Did she dress up as Cleopatra for David Luiz's birthday?

 

[Geyzer Soze]

Did she dress up as Cleopatra for David Luiz's birthday?

Apparently

 

[spurs9]

Been seeing quite a few comments about the incompetency of the Tottenham medical staff and wanted to clarify a few things before they become the new scapegoat for why players are always out injured and blamed for any future failures.
Why are our players always hurt?

Several possible reasons for that, unfortunately injuries are part and parcel of the game. From severe acute injuries to more bothersome chronic injuries, there is no 100% way to prevent injuries so scrap that idea from your head. But there are factors that can lead to further time on the physio table

• Players rushing back - This is a major issue, frequently players want to play through the pain and take care of any underlying issue after the season is over. The body doesn't work that way, any improper form (and increased load) or dysfunction will cause the player to break down at some point and cause even more issues ( bad ankle moblity can lead to knee instability which can alter hip mobility). Also players can overdo the rehab work ( in the hopes of getting fit quicker, seeing multiple physios or jumping on the latest fix-all that they've heard about ) or on the flipside not do enough helpful recovery ( physios/medical staff are with players at the max 6 hours, helping with rehab, if the players cannot be responsible the other 18 hours then recovery becomes an issue).
  
• Managers rushing players back- I actually heard a quite a few managers say that " i'd rather have a 50% John Smith playing rather than him missing the game" without truly understanding the consequences of rushing an injured player back. With the stakes being incredibly high in the league and managers wanting their best players available to help win games, this becomes a prevalent issue. Unfortunately, this can be damaging to the player on a two levels. First, physically because the likely hood of injury is increased. Secondly, mentally because if a manager is personally nudging a player to play who isn't fit, the player might feel that failling to do so will affect any future starts or minutes on the field or worse lose the managers faith in him. All of which lead invariably back to more time on the physio table.
• Injury History/Prone - Some players, due to physiological differences etc are just prone to injuries. It then becomes a case of managing these players and using techniques to reduce the extent of the injury (rather than "curing" it). Players who tend to have acute severe injuries (ACL/MCL, broken leg) become susceptible to even more injuries in the future. We can see this with players returning from long layoffs (Kaboul - Knee Injury) having to deal with niggling muscular strain or ligament sprains on his road to recovery.
• Plain Bad Luck - In form of training injuries, sometimes a players get hurt while trying to get back to fitness, tis a way of life. I also believe Lamela falls into this category of plain bad luck. New country, new language, new more physical league, him having to justify his transfer fee etc have all played into his injury. There is a photo of him staying back after a game to to work on his shot , so it is not unimaginable to see him doing some extra work on his own outside of the training center in order for him to get to grips with the league. And with the psychological stress of wanting to adapt quickly and make the WC team, we should be thankful he hasn't completely broken down. Fortunately at 21/22 he still has to time to grow into his body and find ways to cope with the demands of the game.
• Bad Physios/Staff - As much as we would like to blame them for players being out longer than expected, they rarely deserve the blame. They are good (if not great) at what they do. These are the same guys that saved Muamba's life! The same guys that insisted the Hugo go off the field but AVB decided otherwise! THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING! You really think Levy would sanction a new training center, buy players of value and then assemble a bunch of clowns to look and care for his investments THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING! Alot of people fail to realize just how demanding the world of sports medicine is. Dealing with constant change from new training regimes and equipment, they have to stay up to date to ensure that the players are getting the best and most applicable form of treatment available. AGAIN THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.And if you doubt that they do know what they are doing , here is a video of Wayne Diesel, Head of Medical Services at Tottenham, delivering a seminar on "Eccentric Rehab"...if you feel you understand more than half the information he's delivering maybe you should be the Tottenham physio instead
  
  
  ​
• I just remembered another factor that can lead to player injuries
  
  Managers/ Headcoaches set in their way- I remember a case where we received new equipment and were to do baseline testing with the players for the upcoming season. The Head Coach of the club wasn't to sure about this because he felt all this new tech was just a distraction (and also he didn't understand how to interpret the data). So we tried our best to make the data easy to digest for everyone. We made tables showing HR/HR AVG/ WK LOAD/ CALS/TIME etc, for a 1 week or so everything seemed good. Unbeknownst to us the Head Coach was looking at HR after each session and giving the players he perceived with lower HR's more work to do because he felt they weren't working hard enough in training. We began to see an increase in muscular strains soon after without knowing the cause until one of the players remarked that he had to cut down on a strength session to do some extra cardio work that the coach had issued. We were baffled because the player in question was in the top 3 fittest players in the team!! So we asked the coach what the reasoning was behind the extra work and he said something on the lines off " Because they had low HR'S after my training sessions, which means that they were being lazy!!". So we had to clear up all the confusion and let him know that he had to take into effect Workload when looking at HR and that a lower HR in this case was indicative of high level of cardiovascular efficiency (extremely fit). He was not thrilled that he was wrong and decided that we stop using the charts because he didn't appreciate not knowing what the information meant and to him it was superfluous
  
  So we stopped with the charts but still recorded after each session for our records so we could go back and see how to best to approach each strength session and recovery for each player.
  
  Sometimes managers/head coaches are unwilling to adapt to new methods of player improvement and insist the old ways of "make em run till they puke" will reap more benefits. It is at times an uphill struggle to sell true scientific methods of improvement to them because they have already been successful without them.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the same teams/managers have the worst problems. I believe that most managers in the EPL over train players, which causes a lot of injuries.

Raymond Verheijen was a fitness coach under Mark Hughes at Man City (he left when MH was fired) and they had the probably best fitness and least amount of injuries in the league.

Raymond Verheijen has spoken out about how Arsene Wenger over trains and brings players back too quickly and has predicted players breaking down shortly after returning from injury. Whilst VDV was here, he said we over trained him and before last season began, he said Van Persie would have less injuries under Sir Alex due to his training methods he set up for RVP and before this season he said RVP would have injury issues due to Moyes "Dinosaur" methods.

BTW, when I say over train, I just mean in fitness/strength training, not technique & Tactics.

 

[EQP]

I don't think it is a coincidence that the same teams/managers have the worst problems. I believe that most managers in the EPL over train players, which causes a lot of injuries.

Raymond Verheijen was a fitness coach under Mark Hughes at Man City (he left when MH was fired) and they had the probably best fitness and least amount of injuries in the league.

Raymond Verheijen has spoken out about how Arsene Wenger over trains and brings players back too quickly and has predicted players breaking down shortly after returning from injury. Whilst VDV was here, he said we over trained him and before last season began, he said Van Persie would have less injuries under Sir Alex due to his training methods he set up for RVP and before this season he said RVP would have injury issues due to Moyes "Dinosaur" methods.

BTW, when I say over train, I just mean in fitness/strength training, not technique & Tactics.

Wow! Thank you for bringing him up! I absolutely look up to him and enjoy his views on training and keeping players fit. He actually did a study on the impact that Europa League had on domestic leagues (basically his belief was that 2 days was not enough time to recover and prep for the next domestic game) he actually Spurs as an example and even gave credit to Harry for playing the "b" team because most if not all our fixtures after EL's games were positive results.

 

[beats1]

What evidence?

The fact that every year that we seem to be at the top of the injury list(not the league table as that accounts for injuries longer than 14 days). Now this could be due to us having a lot of injury prone players but alot of our injury prone players weren't before they got here. This can be explained as bad luck, as injuries will always happen. However we do seem to pick up niggling injuries.

Looking at this season we have seen that
Dembele - has been playing alot of the time despite not looking fit, we went for manual therapy on his hip injury instead of surgery, as avb stated because we didnt want to lose him for a month instead of 1 week. AVB recently revealed he has suffered pains from his hip since the injury in 2012 and takes 3 days to recover

Kaboul - he had a bad knee injury, we rushed him back too many times and it flared up and got worse. This time we got him training for a month and slowly brought back and he got through his first match(just about)

Rose - he had a ankle injury and medical team cleared him but it was said to be unknown to the medical team why he was still getting pains in his foot, something avb confirmed as the reason for him being out.

Sandro - been doubtful for most games this season with hamstring his injury, like the newcastle match, he played(got taken off unknown whether injured), starts next match does his calf but according to reports his injury now is the hamstring, which he was having issues with before that match.

Siggy - out with a calf injury at turn of the year, makes it back plays two games and then has a reoccurrence of the calf injury

Capoue - had a sprained ankle, we said he would be out for four weeks, however he was out for 2 months but he has come back well. He has be good since, so a success story but he did come back earlier than that but wasn't fit.

Vertonghen - rolled his ankle after doing a similar injury earlier in the season, could just be a coincidence but it doesn't help that we played him in unnecessary fixtures.

I could go on but I don't think our medical team are helped by our managers rushing them back, like Lloris who was told to stay off but the player and manager let him continue. It didnt help that we announced that he cleared to play and then we went on to sideline him when our medical staff and manager were taking a lot of flack. This then happened with Townsend iirc.

 

[EQP]

The fact that every year that we seem to be at the top of the injury list(not the league table as that accounts for injuries longer than 14 days). Now this could be due to us having a lot of injury prone players but alot of our injury prone players weren't before they got here. This can be explained as bad luck, as injuries will always happen. However we do seem to pick up niggling injuries.

Looking at this season we have seen that
Dembele - has been playing alot of the time despite not looking fit, we went for manual therapy on his hip injury instead of surgery, as avb stated because we didnt want to lose him for a month instead of 1 week. AVB recently revealed he has suffered pains from his hip since the injury in 2012 and takes 3 days to recover

Kaboul - he had a bad knee injury, we rushed him back too many times and it flared up and got worse. This time we got him training for a month and slowly brought back and he got through his first match(just about)

Rose - he had a ankle injury and medical team cleared him but it was said to be unknown to the medical team why he was still getting pains in his foot, something avb confirmed as the reason for him being out.

Sandro - been doubtful for most games this season with hamstring his injury, like the newcastle match, he played(got taken off unknown whether injured), starts next match does his calf but according to reports his injury now is the hamstring, which he was having issues with before that match.

Siggy - out with a calf injury at turn of the year, makes it back plays two games and then has a reoccurrence of the calf injury

Capoue - had a sprained ankle, we said he would be out for four weeks, however he was out for 2 months but he has come back well. He has be good since, so a success story but he did come back earlier than that but wasn't fit.

Vertonghen - rolled his ankle after doing a similar injury earlier in the season, could just be a coincidence but it doesn't help that we played him in unnecessary fixtures.

I could go on but I don't think our medical team are helped by our managers rushing them back, like Lloris who was told to stay off but the player and manager let him continue. It didnt help that we announced that he cleared to play and then we went on to sideline him when our medical staff and manager were taking a lot of flack. This then happened with Townsend iirc.

Excellent post! You bring up some good points regarding our players and their extended layoffs. Like i said in my original post multiple factors play into increased injury incidence but having a manager who rushes players back is one of the more frequent culprits. Also i read some ITK ( for the life of me i cannot find it) where it was stated that AVB turned down some equipment from Under Armor that would help measure and record player performance during training, instead he said he would rather watch the players and gauge their effort using his own eyes.

 

[tooey]

TBF the dutch clubs we use have great facilities but that is for treatment that doesn't mean our doctors are great. If they put them on a poor rehab plan or take the wrong type of treatment for injuries that doesn't mean that the treatment used in the Netherlands is poor.

The evidence says that our medical team is shocking and need to sort themselves out

What evidence is that then? A piece of ITK (in other words bullshit). It's the usual "why does it it always rain on me" mentality. You just notice long lay offs when its your own side. It happens to every single football club out there.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Wow! Thank you for bringing him up! I absolutely look up to him and enjoy his views on training and keeping players fit. He actually did a study on the impact that Europa League had on domestic leagues (basically his belief was that 2 days was not enough time to recover and prep for the next domestic game) he actually Spurs as an example and even gave credit to Harry for playing the "b" team because most if not all our fixtures after EL's games were positive results.

Was he the guy that was working with Gary Speed at Wales ? I think @ShelfSide18 is often quoting his research about recovery times etc. I saw him on Sky talking about it.

Of the 5 league games we lost in the league under AVB, 4 of them (Arsenal, West ham, Newcastle, Liverpool) all came after thursday Europa games.

 

[EQP]

Was he the guy that was working with Gary Speed at Wales ? I think @ShelfSide18 is often quoting his research about recovery times etc. I saw him on Sky talking about it.

Of the 5 league games we lost in the league under AVB, 4 of them (Arsenal, West ham, Newcastle, Liverpool) all came after thursday Europa games.

Yes he did work with Gary Speed at Wales. He also worked with Man City, Barca, South Korea ( WC 2010) and some other teams. If you are interested, here is the PDF with all the data and results of his recovery study.

http://worldfootballacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/WFA_Study-on-recovery-days.pdf