VDV : "Spurs are bigger than Arsenal!"

[Coalhada]

Yeah, Ferguson needs his money -- he does a good job with the top players he gets, but he has (up until recently when the purse strings were drawn tighter) had a very scattershot approach to buying players, even with the luxury of the best-paid scouting network in England and the ability to poach youth players.

And then when he has signed flops, he hasn't exactly turned them round. He also has a record of taking promising young English players and in the end just loaning them out before flogging them off to Championship teams. Quite Spurs-y of him, actually.

 

[EastLondonYid]

We're still some way behind Arsenal. They will not lose at home to the like of Wigan, their mentality means they get the job done there.

they may not lose at home to wigan...but they will lose 3-2 to wigan whilst being 2-0 up not long ago i do recall....

they didn't get the job done then

 

[EastLondonYid]

We're a decent defence away from them. We're still letting in stupid goals. A point at Sunderland isn't a bad result for them. Away at Wigan was last year when their title hopes had already been well dashed. The are away games anyway, I'm talking about their ruthlessness at home 6-0 Braga anyone? You won't see them going down 1-0 to Stoke, Wolves, Wigan on their own manor.

They look much stronger this year and we will be a least 10 points behind them come the end of the season imo.

Not the case mate.....that game was after we beat chelsea and the scum were given title hopes again, the game was important for them, had they won it ,they were back in the picture.....and they fucked it up

 

[dimiSpur]

The scum always find a way to put a positive spin on all their defeats....tossers

kids,injuries,other games more important ..etc etc.

 

[mil1lion]

When I clicked the reply + on mil1lion's post it was to say pretty much exactly what SS18 said.

But I'm not sure how much better than Ancelotti he is. Could Ferguson go to Italy and achieve what Ancelotti has ? Possibly.

And it would have been fucking interesting to see how Ferguson coped with Wengers transfer budget.

I would say Wenger is a better scout than Ferguson for this reason. But when it comes to coaching his players, Fergusons record speaks for itself. He sets his team up as well as anyone, everyone knows their jobs, and he can afford to drop players and still scrap for victory.

Wenger on the other hand only seems to be able to coach 1 way. He doesn't accept the fact that his players need to toughen up and win ugly at times. They play sublime football, but that alone isn't enough to win the League. He is too stubborn.

 

[Kendall]

they may not lose at home to wigan...but they will lose 3-2 to wigan whilst being 2-0 up not long ago i do recall....

they didn't get the job done then

That was an away game and it was last season! I'm talking about winning your HOME games against the teams you SHOULD beat this season.

We lost at home to Wigan, which was a carbon copy of our defeat against Stoke at the lane last year. We very nearly came unstuck against Wolves too. I don't feel like we've truely turned that corner yet.

If we're to be taken seriously as contenders against Arsenal in the league this season, we have to be more convincing. I can't see Arsenal struggling to beat these teams at home.

 

[Kendall]

Ferguson is leagues ahead of Wenger.

That's why, regardless of personnel, his team has challenged for the title every single season for the past 20 years, whereas Wenger has been some way short for a long time and has won fuck all in years.

 

[EastLondonYid]

That was an away game and it was last season! I'm talking about winning your HOME games against the teams you SHOULD beat this season.

We lost at home to Wigan, which was a carbon copy of our defeat against Stoke at the lane last year. We very nearly came unstuck against Wolves too. I don't feel like we've truely turned that corner yet.

If we're to be taken seriously as contenders against Arsenal in the league this season, we have to be more convincing. I can't see Arsenal struggling to beat these teams at home.

It happens to even the very best ..this season even super teams have lost at home to teams you would expect them to win.

Barca 0 (newly promoted) Hercules 2..

so though i don't like losing at home to these teams, it happens,
i would take losing to these teams if like last year the final table had us in 4th again...having lost to these teams in securing 4th.

i do agree we have to learn a way to beat teams who primarily come to defend, though i thought wolves in parts played ok.

Having said all this, our home record isn't too bad i think...wigan being our first defeat in 10 months.

 

[whitelightwhiteheat]

I'm hoping Wigan is just an anomaly in our season (please, please!) - generally at home we're pretty good. We could do with figuring out a way to beat teams who come to defend/are overly-physical. We are getting there though.

As for the VDV "we're bigger than Arsenal" comments - I think this was clearly a bit of banter between him and van Persie. It makes for great reading for fans (of both clubs) who can now go at each other (like we need a reason!) over who's the biggest (not something that can be easily answered, I guess).

We're by far the classier club though! SUPER TOTTENHAM FROM THE LANE!

 

[Kendall]

So would I, but we're not talking about 4th... we're talking about competing with, matching and potentially overtaking Arsenal and I think we're still miles away from that :up:

 

[mil1lion]

I think we are turning that corner. The Wigan loss was our first home defeat this year (the last one being 12th Dec 09).

 

[whitelightwhiteheat]

I think we're a little short (perhaps in the striker department) of getting to that next level. It's so close we can taste it though!

Arsenal could struggle defensively though (especially with an injury to Vermaelen) plus they have two fairly iffy keepers. Can't believe the kiddy fiddler didn't strengthen that area more during the summer.

 

[EastLondonYid]

So would I, but we're not talking about 4th... we're talking about competing with, matching and potentially overtaking Arsenal and I think we're still miles away from that :up:

ok if thats your point...

but i don't think we are as far behind them as you suggest.

though i do admit we are still behind them.

when Harry plays the likes of luka,vdv,JD,gomes, dawson...in the same team,something he hasn't had a chance to do, then we will see we are a real match for them, and even chelsea and man u..IMO.

I am not as convinced as many others ,that our squad is as good as everyone says,... i.e.we miss jd, gomes and luka so much when they are out, the ones that come in are no match.

our first 11 are as good as any team, maybe except chelsea.

we are getting there, 1-2 players away from a title challenge..be patient and watch us go when our big guns return.

 

[whitelightwhiteheat]

Modric was out for 4 months last season and we still finished 4th (I agree we miss him though).

Gomes is THE massive loss, for me. We have no one anywhere near his level to replace him when he's out.

Plus Defoe is definitely a step above what we currently have in the striker department, on his day...

 

[mil1lion]

Arsenal don't even have a quality keeper at all. I don't think anyone aside from Man City really has great cover for their keepers anyway. Ours are about as good as you get.

I think if we get injuries in defence and midfield, we have enough quality cover. But the loss of Defoe is the biggest blow of all our injuries. Simply because he's the closest we have to a top class striker.

If we were to get a top class striker, even if he were to get injured, we'd still have Defoe aswell as Crouch and one of Pav and Keane. That for me would put us right up there challenging for 3rd spot and automatic CL qualification.

Suarez please ray:

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I would say Wenger is a better scout than Ferguson for this reason. But when it comes to coaching his players, Fergusons record speaks for itself. He sets his team up as well as anyone, everyone knows their jobs, and he can afford to drop players and still scrap for victory.

Wenger on the other hand only seems to be able to coach 1 way. He doesn't accept the fact that his players need to toughen up and win ugly at times. They play sublime football, but that alone isn't enough to win the League. He is too stubborn.

Tactically I think Ferguson is slightly better than Wenger, but as a coach of players Wenger is streets ahead of anyone I've ever witnessed in football.
Just watch the way his youth teams play. Wenger rely's far more on his ability to coach a player how to think, move, interact than he does on his tactics or transfer budget. He's also bought far less duds than Ferguson. And even the quality players he's bought he's got much better value for money.

It's not coaching one way - after all, one of his teams won the title unbeaten, a feat that no-one has come close to since, including Mourinho and Ferguson.

Ferguson is leagues ahead of Wenger.

That's why, regardless of personnel, his team has challenged for the title every single season for the past 20 years, whereas Wenger has been some way short for a long time and has won fuck all in years.

Kendall's dad is that you ?

Seriously, do you honestly think that Ferguson would won the title if he'd had the constraints that wenger has had recently.

Wenger has completely rebuilt a new side in the last 5 years, maintained their CL status (even reaching a final) continuously, challenged for the title until the last couple of games last year and IMO will be challenging for it this year and a few more to come.

How confident are you in the rebuilding job Ferguson has done. He's still shit scared to drop Scholes, Neville and Giggs he has so little faith in their understudy's. Arsenal have managed to build the best stadium in the country and are still in less debt than ManU with a completely overhauled team.

 

[mil1lion]

Sir Alex has built several Championship winning teams across 2 decades. Just when you think they're going to struggle without the likes of Cantona, Beckham or Ronaldo, just when you think they're going to go through a transitional period, he still puts together a title challenging side.

Wenger is a better spot of talent. He signs players at a very young age when they're cheap. So naturally their valuation will rise considerably. Where Sir Alex usuaully has to wait for teams like Leeds and Spurs to discover players like Cantona and Berbatov, before splashing out on them.

When it comes to actually coaching those players, Ferguson is a true master imo. He turns every team he has into a winning one. If Wenger scouted players for Ferguson to coach, he would turn them into winners. He would toughen them up and not protect them all the time by moaning about how physical the oppositon are.

Wengers youth team are impressive, but youth level is nothing compared to Premier League football. You can get away with his style of play at that level, but not always at Premier League level. I can just imagine how weak Messi would be if he came through the Arsenal system. He would never have been toughened up the way he has. He'd break like Fabregas.

 

[whitelightwhiteheat]

Surely Wenger's youth teams coaches have to take credit for their performances? (plus the guys he has dotted around the world scouting for him).

Eventually he turns most of them into mediocre Premier League players (Alliadere, etc) while occasionally some would come through as World Beaters (Fabregas) - I remember an Arsenal team destroying Wolves 5-1 in the Carling Cup (or whatever it was at the time) - how many of that team made it big? Not many.

If that was us we'd be kicking lumps into the manager for "destroying the careers of talented youngsters" (which we get enough of as it is).

Wenger likes his teams to play football (currently, it hasn't always been the case) but Ferguson's United teams have been good to watch down the years too.

Either way, we're still Super Tottenham From The Lane!

 

[mil1lion]

Even Fabregas would have to be credited largely to Barcelona. They did all the work from when he was just 10 up until he was 16. That's when Arsene Wenger snapped him up. Like I say, he is a great spot of talent, and he is a very good coach. But there's a reason he hasn't won anything for 5 years now.

I get a bit fed up with people banging on about their youth development tbh. They haven't produced that many great players. Most of their stars over the years are the likes of Bergkamp, Henry, Vieira. Most of them were brought in at 20-25 years old. The younger ones generally turn out to be very good, but not world class players. Cesq being 1 of very few.

Their youth set up is impressive, but it's somewhat overhyped aswell. It's nowhere near comparable to Barcelona.

The funny thing is, we're doing much the same aswell. Signing players young (18-25 years generally), but we'll probably get less credit for doing so.

 

[whitelightwhiteheat]

I agree mil1lion. Not sure what Arsenal have done to warrant the youth development thing. Yes, they've had years where they've look awesome in the League Cup (more so 5-ish years ago than recently) but very few have gone on to have massive careers.

As you say, Fabregas came from Barca at 16 as good as ready to play first team football. Very little needed to be done there, he's the exception to the rule.

The rest of them are players I can barely remember.

For example, the above mentioned Arsenal 5 Wolves 1 game. I remember the press salivating over the Arsenal youth during that game (from 2003, apparently)

So the team was:

Stack, Tavlaridis, Clichy, Hoyte (Skulason 55), Wiltord, Vieira, Simek, Fabregas Soler, Bentley (Smith 78), Kanu, Aliadiere (Papadopulos 83).

Beyond Fabregas and Clichy (and Bentley, I suppose) - there's nothing to write home about.

And that's been the case throughout the years. The kids have looked good at times, but have never stepped up when push comes to shove.

I'd take our record of Lennon, Huddlestone, Dawson, Bale over theirs. Though I'd love a Fabregas, obviously, he's a class above.