Walker

[Legend10]

So it's a fallacy perpetrated just by posters on SC that English football is inferior to most of it's leading peers now. We all imagined that great luminary of world football Chile giving England a bit of lesson last week ?

Come on, stop bringing a stupid personal agenda into every post.

This isn't something posters on SC made up. There is a national fucking task force being set up to tackle it for christ sake.

There isn't a national task force been set up to tackle football intelligence at all.

England are clearly behind the top nations, nobody would dispute that, and it will take a lot for England to catch up. However England are in the batch after the elite teams, it's just that that isn't good enough, as a country England wants to be getting to the final stages or even the final of major tournaments, there's nothing wrong with that ambition.

Chile beating England though means very little, I saw the great luminary of world football South Africa deservedly beat Spain, and what?

England has ambitions it just doesn't have the quality of player or 1 or 2 stand out players like a Messi or a Ronaldo to match its ambitions. If Gareth Bale had elected to play for England we would be a hell of a lot closer, that's for sure.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

There isn't a national task force been set up to tackle football intelligence at all.

England are clearly behind the top nations, nobody would dispute that, and it will take a lot for England to catch up. However England are in the batch after the elite teams, it's just that that isn't good enough, as a country England wants to be getting to the final stages or even the final of major tournaments, there's nothing wrong with that ambition.

Chile beating England though means very little, I saw the great luminary of world football South Africa deservedly beat Spain, and what?

England has ambitions it just doesn't have the quality of player or 1 or 2 stand out players like a Messi or a Ronaldo to match its ambitions. If Gareth Bale had elected to play for England we would be a hell of a lot closer, that's for sure.

You don't think intelligence will be discussed ? Because it will fail if it doesn't.

Why do you think England are behind top nations ? You think they are using the wrong balls ?

It's not just losing games it's how/why you lose games. Did South Africa outplay Spain ? because that's what Chile did, and probability tells us that the team who gets outplayed will lose more than the team who does the outplaying.

How an earth are you struggling with this concept.

 

[Legend10]

And again, this has been said several times over. Walker compares adequately with other rb's around right now. But one of the reasons for that might be that the more intelligence and technique a player shows the more likely he is to be moved into other areas of the pitch. Maybe ?

So if you think that Walker compares 'adequately' with other RB's around at the moment, you think that all RB's and probably FB's in general 'lack intelligence' and are dim witted retards?

And if you don't think that why do you keep on saying it about him?

 

[Legend10]

You don't think intelligence will be discussed ? Because it will fail if it doesn't.

Why do you think England are behind top nations ? You think they are using the wrong balls ?

It's not just losing games it's how/why you lose games. Did South Africa outplay Spain ? because that's what Chile did, and probability tells us that the team who gets outplayed will lose more than the team who does the outplaying.

How an earth are you struggling with this concept.

Firstly you implied to the other poster that there was a task force set up to address 'football intelligence', which isn't true, there is a task force being set up to identify all of the areas that need improving in England to enable us to produce better players.

We are behind the elite nations because they are producing better players than we are, but there's a million reasons for that and us far from a simple answer, starting with how kids lifestyles in England have changed over the years and the 'no ball games' signs, not that many kids seem to want to be outside kicking balls about these days. So your question is extremely complicated, but isn't about using the wrong balls.

And South Africa deservedly beat Spain, yes.

How on earth do you think you have the know how to label players as lacking intelligence, thick, dim witted and the other bullshit you toss about as if you know so much better what they should be doing? Like most you clearly have no football education as such whereas these players are educated in the game, have experience, play with and against the best, they do have an intelligent idea of what they are doing and would be nowhere near that level if they didn't.

 

[ShelfSide18]

Firstly quoting Xavi just doesn't work for me, because as I've said previously in this thread to expect players to control games, tempo etc in a way that Pirlo, Xavi and so few others can is not going to happen. There are lots of top movie directors but they can't all make films like Spielberg can or Stone can but it doesn't mean the others lack intelligence, pick pretty much any field you want and it's the same. The other directors aren't slow, dim witted retards, they're still intelligent in what they do but some others are better. There are lots of surgeons but not all can do heart transplants, are those that can't lacking in surgical intelligence?

IMHO technique has a huge impact on a players ability to process the game, if you have such quality at your disposal technically to start with it allows you to play with your head up more or less continuously, so to start with you're seeing more than everybody else and you're seeing it before everybody else. Before you can be a top top quality player like Xavi you need top quality technique, there's no point in having a great game brain if you can't trap a bag of cement or pass a ball into the right area or with the right pace!

Now thinking seriously about Walker for a minute, he's a FB, the same as every other FB in top level football if he had the game brain of a Xavi or a Pirlo he wouldn't be playing FB would he? He'd be playing in the middle of the park running the show, the same as every other top level FB would be. Let's look at Gareth Bale, well guess what he's got too much in his locker to be playing FB so he doesn't play there anymore, he now plays in a position where he can use his extra quality. Let's look at Philip Lahm, Pep's taken a look at him and thought you're far too good a player to be playing FB, come and play in the middle of the park son where you can exert more influence.

Name me one Premiership FB who would make a top quality central midfield player?

Name me one Premiership FB who is clearly so much more intelligent than Walker that Walker 'lacks intelligence' in comparison to?

But what makes me laugh is the people who band these sentiments around and accuse these players of being thick etc do so on what knowledge? What experience, what know how, what education in the role that their saying people lack intelligence in? It's an easy criticism and an easy slur to label somebody with and is a cheap attempt at trying to sound smart.

When I mentioned Xavi it was a more general point about intelligence in footballers, not as a comparison with Walker or anything! He's one of the most intelligent footballers I know, so I used him as an example!

But for me, if you are a GK, FB, CB, CM whatever, you need game intelligence. Naturally, you may expect your CMs to be possibly the most intelligent footballers you have, but if you're at full back like Walker is, you still need to make decisions, you still need to read the play, you still need to be able to scan the field and build a picture in your head.

Does Walker do this? Well, to some degree he obviously does and that's why he's first choice RB at a very good club, and now getting international recognition. But does he lack football intelligence? Yes, I think he often does, although his increasing involvement in our play shows he is adept at finding space for himself to receive the ball which is good, it's when he gets caught blindsided (often recovering with his pace) and when he arrives in the final third and his final ball can be found wanting. I'm not asking him to be Philip Lahm, but his reading of situations, his final third activity needs to sharpen up (I've always said I think it will because he's a learner).

I like Walker, he's improving and whilst I can see limitations which may prevent him from becoming the very best, I'm happy with him in our side right now. There are bigger priorities than replacing Walker.

 

[ShelfSide18]

how kids lifestyles in England have changed over the years and the 'no ball games' signs

Now that I very much agree with!

'No ball games, and no world cups either!'

 

[TheSecretNonFootballer]

Didn't he start as a striker? It's not too surprising that he lacks a natural defensive instinct. I'm sure it will come. He certainly hasn't been getting worse, just our expectations have been increasing each season.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

To accuse somebody of a lack of intelligence in any field or sector you first need to know better or be better informed yourself.

Do me a favour. Now I know what i'm about to say isn't exactly what you're saying but the gist of it is the same.

To knock AVB for any of his decisions, substitutions or being ginger, you have to either be ginger or hold the relative coaching badges yourself? To criticise a players ability, you need to be as good as, if not better than that player yourself. And so on and so forth.

Maybe we should close SC down then? Or lock threads if they are posted by someone who doesn't hold the relevant qualifications?.......because you can only have something to say on any subject if you are at least as, if not better qualified in that field. This site is rammed to the rafters with threads and opinions on football and countless other subjects that are right, wrong and just downright bullshit and there's nothing in any of them that should set them apart in the way you've suggested.

Excepting in the eyes of Spurs Bear, who's pretty much a flangepiper extraordinaire anyway

 

[wishkah]

Didn't he start as a striker? It's not too surprising that he lacks a natural defensive instinct. I'm sure it will come. He certainly hasn't been getting worse, just our expectations have been increasing each season.

Agree,

I like him, his mentality, and his desire. he;s not shite by a long way. He can improve yes, but he;s not naugton shite

 

[thinktank]

I see it the other way round myself L10, not that I think that a good technique is not fundamental for a good player, but I think a good football intelligence, or insight, or whatever you want to call it is the thing that separates players.

People talk of Xavi's first touch which is phenomenal, but if you watch him play he is always scanning the field so he builds a picture of his surroundings, where the space is and where the other players are. When the ball arrives, he is more relaxed and composed to take that first touch. This is what I believe makes players great, they have the technique, but the understanding and insight of the game to apply it.

You take a lower level player who doesn't scan as much, and they are much less confident and composed because they haven't built the same picture in their head. They are easier panicked and more liable to have a poor first touch. It's not always technical, it's their understanding of where they are in relation to the space and pressure. Obviously, as you say, when you combine technique and insight together you have your perfect match but for me, technique is easier to spot and train that football intelligence.

When it comes to English players, I think technically we are slightly deficient, but in my opinion the gap in game intelligence, understanding and insight is the biggest. A majority of the experts within youth development, those who continue to produce the best players tend to agree that game insight and intelligence is the most important thing in football going forward, I even read that Ajax value it over technique in their recruitment process.

If they can't get it from that then I'd give up trying if I were you.

 

[Legend10]

Do me a favour. Now I know what i'm about to say isn't exactly what you're saying but the gist of it is the same.

To knock AVB for any of his decisions, substitutions or being ginger, you have to either be ginger or hold the relative coaching badges yourself? To criticise a players ability, you need to be as good as, if not better than that player yourself. And so on and so forth.

Maybe we should close SC down then? Or lock threads if they are posted by someone who doesn't hold the relevant qualifications?.......because you can only have something to say on any subject if you are at least as, if not better qualified in that field. This site is rammed to the rafters with threads and opinions on football and countless other subjects that are right, wrong and just downright bullshit and there's nothing in any of them that should set them apart in the way you've suggested.

Excepting in the eyes of Spurs Bear, who's pretty much a flangepiper extraordinaire anyway

I'm sure you realise that I was deliberately over egging the point to try to make the point! I agree with everything you've just said (apart from the SB which luckily I know nothing about) but and IMHO it's a big but, having an opinion and voicing it and saying what should have been done etc etc is one thing and I think that's totally normal, that surely doesn't though lead to constantly accusing withering on like an old record about people lacking intelligence, does it.

Slow minded, dim witted, thick, retarded etc to continuously level this at players at that level is just nonsensical bullshit! It's not the same as questioning their ability, worth to the team, decision making or anything else, it's just complete bullshit.

If you don't agree with and I personally often don't AVB's selection, substitutions, tactics or anything else you surely don't then think he lacks intelligence, that would just be absurd.

I never take issue with people questioning managers decisions, players abilities or pretty much anything else, but this one does bug me because I think some people who like to accuse players of being the aforementioned don't have the first clue what they're on about themselves and it's a cheap slur.

It's a bit like Jedward saying The Rolling Stones are shit live.

 

[Coyboy]

So it's a fallacy perpetrated just by posters on SC that English football is inferior to most of it's leading peers now. We all imagined that great luminary of world football Chile giving England a bit of lesson last week ?

Come on, stop bringing a stupid personal agenda into every post.

This isn't something posters on SC made up. There is a national fucking task force being set up to tackle it for christ sake.

But that's a wider point that I'm not getting at. I have no agenda why don't you just calm down and read what I wrote.

What I'm saying is that certain posters throw around phrases to demean the likes of Walker 's, Lennon's and also Dawson 's "intelligence" as if they are matters of fact.

Those players happen to be English. That has nothing to do with the game against Chile in which none was involved anyway.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

So if you think that Walker compares 'adequately' with other RB's around at the moment, you think that all RB's and probably FB's in general 'lack intelligence' and are dim witted retards?

And if you don't think that why do you keep on saying it about him?

I have already said, quite a few times now, I think there is absolutely a shortage of very good quality full backs in the EPL, and maybe even further a field.

Chelsea, ManC & ManU don't even play specialist RB's most of the time. Arsenal are playing a young understudy. You just look at the crap Glen Johnson has taken on here, and he's generally always been better on the ball than Walker. Equally defensively suspect IMO.

Sloth posted an analysis piece from Whoscored.com a couple of weeks ago. What it showed was that, even by their arbitrary ratings system - take it as you find it - Walker was not actually terribly exceptional. And I think that bares out my notion.

In terms of doing a RB's job for his team I really don't think Walker is giving us much more than players like Coleman, Rangel, Clyne, Johnson, Jenkinson, Debouchy, the lad at Villa who's name I forget. And no better than non specialist players like Ivanovich, Zabaletta and Smalling are doing.

 

[Legend10]

I have already said, quite a few times now, I think there is absolutely a shortage of very good quality full backs in the EPL, and maybe even further a field.

Chelsea, ManC & ManU don't even play specialist RB's most of the time. Arsenal are playing a young understudy. You just look at the crap Glen Johnson has taken on here, and he's generally always been better on the ball than Walker. Equally defensively suspect IMO.

Sloth posted an analysis piece from Whoscored.com a couple of weeks ago. What it showed was that, even by their arbitrary ratings system - take it as you find it - Walker was not actually terribly exceptional. And I think that bares out my notion.

In terms of doing a RB's job for his team I really don't think Walker is giving us much more than players like Coleman, Rangel, Clyne, Johnson, Jenkinson, Debouchy, the lad at Villa who's name I forget. And no better than non specialist players like Ivanovich, Zabaletta and Smalling are doing.

So basically all of these RB's lack intelligence and are dim witted.

Ok.

 

[Coyboy]

Jenkinson? Fucking hell.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

So basically all of these RB's lack intelligence and are dim witted.

Ok.

Bit harsh L, not sure your qualified to say that.

 

[spurs9]

And again, this has been said several times over. Walker compares adequately with other rb's around right now. But one of the reasons for that might be that the more intelligence and technique a player shows the more likely he is to be moved into other areas of the pitch. Maybe ?

But if anytime a full back showed intelligence they were be moved into a different position, there would only be intelligent full backs for a handful of games, which means "right now" would be all of the time but with a few exceptions.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

But if anytime a full back showed intelligence they were be moved into a different position, there would only be intelligent full backs for a handful of games, which means "right now" would be all of the time but with a few exceptions.

Possibly, yes.

 

[Legend10]

Possibly, yes.

Seriously what are you talking about?

So now any top flight or top level footballer who plays FB lacks intelligence!

You say some funny and weird stuff at times BC and usually fairly interesting even if inflexible, but bloody hell you've smashed this one out the ball park.

 

[Beni]

For me he has improved his positional play defensive, but attacking play he is making the wrong decisions.

With Townsend infront of him, he needs to provide the width. 9 times out of 10, he is always playing balls square and into a congested midfield. When he gets the chance to get down the Wing, he is always checking back instead of crossing to Soldado or an incoming Paulinho Eriksen etc

He only needs to look at Sagna at how to play the attacking full back well.