Where have all the tackles gone...?

[Spurslove]

http://www.si.com/thecauldron/2015/11/19/nab-champions-league-spot-tottenham-must-stay-foul-mood


and to quote:


The main reason for Tottenham’s defensive improvement comes as a result of a rather cynical (but also brilliant) stylistic shift: manager Mauricio Pochettino has subtly turned his Spurs side into masters of the tactical foul.

Tactical fouling refers to the practice of intentionally fouling the opposition, bucking conventional wisdom and treating the foul not as punishment for an accidental slip-up but rather as a carefully-considered strategy to increase defensive stability.

Teams that tactically foul can be identified via two main criteria: 1) a high volume of fouls and 2) a high percentage of fouls in a team’s own attacking half. Tottenham fits the bill in both categories, as the club has committed 12 more fouls than the next closest team in the league, and 36 more than the Premier League average, with a huge percentage coming in advanced areas. (Note: Tottenham committed the ninth-most fouls in the league last season).

The first major function of Tottenham’s tactical fouling is the limiting of dangerous counterattacks.




That's why we/everyone else fouls so much. Whether or not ref's should blow the whistle quite so frequently is presumably down to the FA.

The tactical fouling thing does seem to be working but of course, there is a down side. Yellow cards build up and players have to sit our bans, as Alli has to miss the Chelsea match and he's hardly anyone's Norman Hunter. I have to say, Alli's yellow card on Sunday was nothing short of a bloody outrage but it just goes to show how trigger happy refs are with the yellow cards these days, often given for the most pathetic 'offences'.

 

[nicdic]

I wouldn't say that those we commit are usually good 'tactical fouls'. They tend to be either a) as a result of us pressing high or b) quite needless ones in our third of the pitch. I cant recall too many sneaky fouls to break up a counter attack for instance.

If you read the article linked you'd have seen that at least for the games shown, our fouls are nearly all in the attacking and middle third. I agree it's linked with the press, but it isn't necessarily a byproduct of the press, it could just as likely be one of the aims. Win the ball back quickly, or break the flow with a foul.

 

[Hot Spur]

There is no doubt that we do seem to be doing a lot of fouling, we've already had Lamela, Dier and Alli suspended for 5 yellows and it's only a third of the way through the season. Whether the fouling is deliberate as the article suggests is debatable. On a separate note, I agree with the comment about refs not giving penalties for fouls in the box that they would have given a free kick for if it happened outside the box.

One thing that really sickens me is commentators saying a player "should have gone down" when a player is fouled and stayed on his feet. I watch the Chelsea game last night and a defender made contact with Hazard in the box but Hazard continues his run with the ball in an attempt to score. Trevor Francis commentating said, "Hazard was too honest for his own good, he should have gone down and got a penalty". Disgusting from a commentator in my opinion.

 

[Ionman34]

There is no doubt that we do seem to be doing a lot of fouling, we've already had Lamela, Dier and Alli suspended for 5 yellows and it's only a third of the way through the season. Whether the fouling is deliberate as the article suggests is debatable. On a separate note, I agree with the comment about refs not giving penalties for fouls in the box that they would have given a free kick for if it happened outside the box.

One thing that really sickens me is commentators saying a player "should have gone down" when a player is fouled and stayed on his feet. I watch the Chelsea game last nigh and a defender made contact with Hazard in the box but Hazard continues his run with the ball in an attempt to score. Trevor Francis commentating said, "Hazard was too honest for his own good, he should have gone down and got a penalty". Disgusting from a commentator in my opinion.

Trevor Francis, 'nuff said.

The guy doesn't know his arse from his elbow.

 

[Gilzeanking]

Its a strange feeling to be the team that commits the most fouls/has most yellows . I'm not complaining , I want Spurs to have every advantage possible . Others do it ...we do it .

The thing I notice as a change from the game back in the day , is how much more shirt-tugging and general manhandling is allowed by refs . While us Brits were terrifying foreign teams with our sliding tackles from behind etc....they were in turn infuriating us with their shirt tugging . Shirt tugging is now apparently acceptable here and occurs constantly through most matches .

In a much lower league of course , but if anyone ever pulled at my shirt , there'd be a fight . How can it be acceptable these days to shirt tug , or the general rugby style wrestling that seems the norm .

I'd be useless as a ref these days , I'd give free kicks and bookings/reds for persistent shirt tug /manhandle offenders .

We used to get more wonderful dribbling back then than these days it seems . I wonder if that's connected .

 

[Hot Spur]

Shirt tugging and holding are very easy to stop but the FA haven't the balls to do it. Instruct refs to give a red card for either of those offences and if it happens in the box an automatic penalty as well as e red card. it would all stop instantly.

 

[Yid-ol]

Shirt tugging and holding are very easy to stop but the FA haven't the balls to do it. Instruct refs to give a red card for either of those offences and if it happens in the box an automatic penalty as well as e red card. it would all stop instantly.

Red is a bit extreme, yellow card for it and Free kick or penalty if in the box, same again if done a second time.

If you are going to give reds for just a shirt pull then reds would also be given for just about any foul.

 

[Hot Spur]

Red is a bit extreme, yellow card for it and Free kick or penalty if in the box, same again if done a second time.

If you are going to give reds for just a shirt pull then reds would also be given for just about any foul.

No it's not extreme, it is deliberate cheating, there is no way it can be pleaded as "accidental". If you do it you will be sent off, they will know the punishment and if they are still stupid enough to do it then they deserve to go off.

 

[Yid-ol]

No it's not extreme, it is deliberate cheating, there is no way it can be pleaded as "accidental". If you do it you will be sent off, they will know the punishment and if they are still stupid enough to do it then they deserve to go off.

Ok, so if we play Chelsea, we have a corner and they clear and counter attack, it's 4 on 3 and we do a sonically but not bad foul to stop play to get back. Is that a red card ad it's cheating also?

Can of worms would be opened if shirt pulling gets a straight red.

 

[Hot Spur]

Ok, so if we play Chelsea, we have a corner and they clear and counter attack, it's 4 on 3 and we do a sonically but not bad foul to stop play to get back. Is that a red card ad it's cheating also?

Can of worms would be opened if shirt pulling gets a straight red.

No it's not a can of worms, it's clearly definable. Shirt tugging and holding are very deliberate and not in any way subject to doubt, red card full stop. Both those offences would cease immediately and the game much better for it.

 

[Gilzeanking]

C'mon guys we're all agreeing here . No need to go nuclear with straight reds imo....just build up the penalties for this form of cheating....each shirt tug is a free kick 2-3 offences = booking, next one/two a red .

It could really clear out these incredible scrums that occur at corners eh.

 

[Hot Spur]

Why piss about?? Zero tolerance. Straight red, it would all stop IMMEDIATELY !!

 

[jurgen]

It's already supposedly a yellow isn't it? At least for clear cut incidents. So 2 shirt pulls and you're off. That being said, not sure how many refs would have the balls to make someone walk for a second offence..

The issue is it not being enforced in the box at corners, I guess a lot of that is that there's usually it going on from both sides, so its hard to attribute a foul from that.. i.e. if a striker and defender are both grappling each other's shirts, is that a penalty for the foul by the defender even though the striker was also committing a foul? In such situations it's usually not that clean cut unless it involves Skrtel who is a joke with that stuff..

 

[Misfit]

Yeah Walkers tackle on Reid where he kicked the ball off him and caught his shin pad on the way past, and you would have thought Reid was shot.

Mackay would have only played about 10 games a season these days.

hahaha. Really, just imagine the likes of Mackay trying to play in this league. He was a lovely footballer, according to my gramps, but took no shit. He was in no way dirty but wouldn't take any crap. Forget the tackling etc, some of which I'm led to believe was more akin to violent assault than a football challenge, Mackay would get sent off for dealing with said thugs.

That's the problem with this type of officiating. The getting rid of dangerous lunatics injuring people is great. Punishing those who respond in any way to the very same thugs with almost equal punishments is a joke.

Sometimes a jerk needs a slap. That's not promoting violence to the little kiddies. All the current setup says is that if you're a devious bastard you can still cheat and even be protected.

Officials are massive fannies too as others have said in this thread. If it's a foul outside the box, it's a foul inside the box. There'd likely be a couple of weeks of games with about 8 pens each game but after that, everyone would know to stop it. It's a damn mess right now due to the refs having zero gumption, sense or both.

 

[Hot Spur]

MacKay was a hard man but never dirty, unlike the likes of Hunter, Bremner and the rest of the Leeds team they played in. I guess you've all seen the photo of MacKay lifting Bremner off his feet by his shirt collar after Bremner tried to kick him. The ref rushed over and broke it up, MacKay didn't even get booked but would get sent off these days.

EDIT: I EXCLUDE Jack Charlton from the "dirty Leeds team", he was about the only one that wasn't dirty.

 

[Fergus]

The easiest way to solve the shirt pulling problem would be to wear form-fitting shirts that can't easily be pulled. Sad to think that such a wealthy game as Premier League Football is more than a decade behind Rugby Union.

 

[Hot Spur]

The easiest way to solve the shirt pulling problem would be to wear form-fitting shirts that can't easily be pulled. Sad to think that such a wealthy game as Premier League Football is more than a decade behind Rugby Union.

That doesn't solve the holding problem though. I wouldn't say your suggestion is the "easiest" it's far from the easiest. It would mean a whole new rethink on shirt arrangements for every club. Nothing is easier than the red card punishment, it would cease immediately with out any hassle of changing shirt design.

 

[spursfan77]

http://www.si.com/thecauldron/2015/11/19/nab-champions-league-spot-tottenham-must-stay-foul-mood


and to quote:


The main reason for Tottenham’s defensive improvement comes as a result of a rather cynical (but also brilliant) stylistic shift: manager Mauricio Pochettino has subtly turned his Spurs side into masters of the tactical foul.

Tactical fouling refers to the practice of intentionally fouling the opposition, bucking conventional wisdom and treating the foul not as punishment for an accidental slip-up but rather as a carefully-considered strategy to increase defensive stability.

Teams that tactically foul can be identified via two main criteria: 1) a high volume of fouls and 2) a high percentage of fouls in a team’s own attacking half. Tottenham fits the bill in both categories, as the club has committed 12 more fouls than the next closest team in the league, and 36 more than the Premier League average, with a huge percentage coming in advanced areas. (Note: Tottenham committed the ninth-most fouls in the league last season).

The first major function of Tottenham’s tactical fouling is the limiting of dangerous counterattacks.




That's why we/everyone else fouls so much. Whether or not ref's should blow the whistle quite so frequently is presumably down to the FA.

I've been calling for us to do this since seeing a Man U midfield of Hargreaves and carrick do it so effectively against us a few years ago (the tevez last minute equaliser game). Without their obvious tactical fouling and stopping our attacks we'd of won that game comfortably. They just stopped us playing with little pulls and kicks.

 

[spursfan77]

I agree with the OP though. There are no tackles nowadays. But what annoys me more is that every foul now sees a yellow card. The refs need to learn that every foul isn't a booking. It pisses me off.

 

[Shadydan]

There is no doubt that we do seem to be doing a lot of fouling, we've already had Lamela, Dier and Alli suspended for 5 yellows and it's only a third of the way through the season. Whether the fouling is deliberate as the article suggests is debatable. On a separate note, I agree with the comment about refs not giving penalties for fouls in the box that they would have given a free kick for if it happened outside the box.

One thing that really sickens me is commentators saying a player "should have gone down" when a player is fouled and stayed on his feet. I watch the Chelsea game last night and a defender made contact with Hazard in the box but Hazard continues his run with the ball in an attempt to score. Trevor Francis commentating said, "Hazard was too honest for his own good, he should have gone down and got a penalty". Disgusting from a commentator in my opinion.

If a defender obstructs an attacker from getting the ball yet he is nowhere near the ball then I think it's fair game to go down personally.