Martin Samuel loves us!

[trifon]

We are also a young squad, which means we will be naive, and seem a little 'incoherent' at times, but it is a work in progress so inevitably we are going to switch off sometimes - but we have the quality at our disposal too push on and become a really top drawer team.

In the meantime, not being a battle weary Spurs fan like some on here, I'm enjoying the ride at the moment, even if we do eventualy fall off.

I think it's not about inexperience. Some of our players are constantly making poor decisions and playing irresponsibilly in defense, so it's clear they are not taught better.

I am enjoying the ride, but not as much knowing the fact this side has ability for much more, and will never achieve it this way

 

[Welshiespursboyo]

COYS.

That is all.

 

[ShelfSide18]

I think it's not about inexperience. Some of our players are constantly making poor decisions and playing irresponsibilly in defense, so it's clear they are not taught better.

I am enjoying the ride, but not as much knowing the fact this side has ability for much more, and will never achieve it this way

I think inexperience will inevitably play it's part, even with the best coaching in the world. Young players will switch off, young players will do the right thing for 75 minutes out of 90 but you can't coach naivety out of players.

I'm not so sure the coaching is as poor and reckless as the likes of yourself and BC suggest, but I'm certainly not in the camp that thinks we are without any problems whatsoever - the truth is nearly always in the middle of 2 extremes in opinion.

Good debate anyway.

 

[mil1lion]

But we didn't play similar football at all for the majority of last season. We had Palacios and Huddelstone protecting the back four with Modric left. Modric used to play inside a lot and see more of the Ball than Hudd or Palacios and even as a LM saw the ball probably double Lennon and Bale combined per game (add to that that Lennon was out a lot and we played Kranjcar as well at times and that is a much more solid, efficient midfield).

Compare that to what we have played this season where Modric has played CM every game, we have had Bale on the left and Lennon on the right.

Bale (particularly) and Lennon aren't particularly conducive to coherent, controlled possession football. Neither see much of the ball when not flying down the wing (Yesterday I think Bale made something like 15 passes) and neither are particularly good and pressing the ball (especially Bale).

Trifon's assessment was spot on. We don't press the ball until it's reached our penalty box or Palacios, whichever comes sooner. I've noticed, even in games where we have a good share of possession, we are often inferior in terms of territory, which has been the case in our last 4 EPL games for example.

What people don't seem to be able to get, is that being better organised off the ball, and pressing the ball better all over the pitch doesn't mean you are less attacking - Barca are superb at this, and all great teams basically do this - it just means you are less vulnerable. It also means you have to work harder off the ball and be extremely well drilled.

What we are playing is devoid of any meaningful, coherent tactics. It's like playground football.

If this were true then we wouldn't be 5th in the table and we wouldn't have finished top of our Champions League group.

Its funny how we didn't ship so many goals when we switched to Modric in the middle last season. When we played with Modric and Huddlestone in the centre with 2 wide players we were still able to keep it tight. Its only this season we've started shipping goals and thats largely down to the loss of King and Dawson. But then I wouldn't expect you to acknowledge the loss of Dawson.

 

[kernowspur]

I think it was Martin Samuel, who when it was down to us or Arsenal for fourth on the last day of the season, wrote it would be better for English football if Arsenal finished fourth. This was when Arsenal had no English Players in the team!

BC is right, we didn't play wide open for most of last season. We were much more compact at the back and Palacios was on top form. I am glad we are playing good football, but am fed up with constantly conceding goals. You can play good football and not concede, it just seems that we can't at the moment.

 

[DJS]

Kinda weird Harry saying he likes to play with Lennon / Bale wide and two strikers when once van der Vaart is fit again, I doubt he'll be doing this...

A question to the people in this thread lamenting the use of two wingers, what are your alternatives as I haven't actually seen any suggested? (granted I sped-read through).

I'm presuming you mean the 4-5-1 / 4-2-3-1 formation we'll be ince again deploying once van der Vaart is fit (and hopefully we'll get a nice new forward in Jan to spearhead this).

If we're sticking to 4-4-2 Lennon / Bale wide seems the only option, unless you want to push Bale back to left-back (which many on here are firmly against) or not play Lennon (but then Modric is usually poor on the right and I don't really fancy Jenas over him on the right).

 

[dvdhopeful]

Kinda weird Harry saying he likes to play with Lennon / Bale wide and two strikers when once van der Vaart is fit again, I doubt he'll be doing this...

A question to the people in this thread lamenting the use of two wingers, what are your alternatives as I haven't actually seen any suggested? (granted I sped-read through).

I'm presuming you mean the 4-5-1 / 4-2-3-1 formation we'll be ince again deploying once van der Vaart is fit (and hopefully we'll get a nice new forward in Jan to spearhead this).

If we're sticking to 4-4-2 Lennon / Bale wide seems the only option, unless you want to push Bale back to left-back (which many on here are firmly against) or not play Lennon (but then Modric is usually poor on the right and I don't really fancy Jenas over him on the right).

I am not against using two wingers, I'm just saying that the way we set up (maybe it is as much to do with mentality as it is the personel) is not intended to keep things tight and retain the ball - hence why we are so open and give up so many goals. It just isn't a way forward imo.

A personal alternative would to be replace Lennon with a slightly less attacking player, a player whose primary role is not to take the ball and run like hell at the oppo, but to retain the ball, find a pass etc. I think this might give us more stability. Having said that, against some sides I think we can play the way we currently do, at home again 'weaker' teams for example. Against a Chelsea, an Arsenal etc, I just think we'd be better served in being a little more cautious.

Davids played this role and Modric, even though he is better in the middle, played the same position for alot of last year.

I'd go something along the lines of:-

Pienaar Modric Palacios/Hudd Bale
VDV
Striker X

Ignore Pienaar, I'm just including him as that seems to be the position it makes sense for him to play if he joins us. Also striker X can be whoever you want it to be: Dzeko, Adebayor, Benzema etc.

I think that team above would give us less of a boom and bust approach and enable us to hold the ball a little better, relieving some pressure. It will still get you plenty of goals and play great football, but without making a game into an attack vs defence training session.

 

[hellava_tough]

I think you guys might be reading into things a bit too much

All we need is a top-draw striker and you'll see us challenging for the league

Why?

Because he'll be able to put away the chances against the 'lesser' opposition that currently have us stumped

If we had a 'Torres' or the like, then we'd have beaten Wigan, West Brom, West Ham and Sunderland at least, giving us 8 more points and 1st place in the league

Simple really :grin:

(and our current injuries don't help either)

 

[mil1lion]

A personal alternative would to be replace Lennon with a slightly less attacking player, a player whose primary role is not to take the ball and run like hell at the oppo, but to retain the ball, find a pass etc. I think this might give us more stability. Having said that, against some sides I think we can play the way we currently do, at home again 'weaker' teams for example. Against a Chelsea, an Arsenal etc, I just think we'd be better served in being a little more cautious.

We have the option of playing VDV there until we get a new striker. I feel that we have to play Pav and Defoe together because neither one of them alone can be relied on. Its almost like Harry plays both just in the hope that at least one of them shows up. Which is why we need a new striker really.

But there's also the option of replacing Hutton for the more defensive Corluka. Although its tough to drop Hutton atm due to the form he's in. The combination of Hutton and Lennon doesn't work as well defensively as Bale and Ekotto. We either need Corluka and Lennon back on the right, or like you say we can play a more refined right midfielder and that would allow Hutton to overlap. I prefer the option of Corluka and Lennon myself.

All we need is a top-draw striker and you'll see us challenging for the league

If we had King and Dawson at centre back I dont think we'd be having this conversation either.

 

[Mr Pink]

It's not about energy. It's the fact they are technically superb that allows them to retain the ball, but most importantly, they are very coherent, tactically aware and thoroughly drilled unit. Like all great teams are, more or less. The moment they lose the ball they get into right positions and start to press with an evident automatism.

We don't have it at all. It's a shame because we have a fantastic squad. This current approach has entertainment value, but it won't get us into winning things. And we have talent for it, for the first time in ages.

It most certainly is about energy, a large part of it anyway. Of course they are technically superb which allows them to keep the ball so well and their understanding of the game helps them defensively in terms of their tactical awareness. Make no mistake though pressing the ball constantly and doing that for long periods during a game of football is energy zapping - like a lot of teams will find out when they are playing a great side like Barca.

If you keep the ball well, like they do, you have less chasing and pressing to do, therefore when attempting to get the ball back you have better energy levels to press aggressively and successfully.

Of course coaching is a huge part of it, but if Barca didn't enjoy a lot of possession for the most part I doubt their pressing would be as effective no matter how good their tactical awarness maybe and their understanding of the game as a collective organised unit.

 

[ShelfSide18]

I'm not quite sure what the disagreement is here... both views are compatible with the other. It's basic football, the more you make the ball do the work the more the other team have to work, physically and mentally. It makes life a truckload easier then when it comes to grafting off the ball ourselves, something we haven't quite collectively got to grips with yet. We surrender possession far too easily, unlike the Barcas of the world, so we immediately have to do the hard graft for longer, which means the young minds of our team are more suspect to switching off. BC is right about mental and physical conditioning here, I just don't see it quite as bluntly as he makes out.

We can do it, we have done it - perhaps the most impressive I've seen us in all departments is Man City at home last season, in my opinion our best performance under Redknapp.

 

[Bristol Coys]

Workrate is not the problem (except in case of Defoe/Pav - problem that I hope will be solved in January). Some of our players have insane workrate.

It's some poor decision making and lack of synchronized team pressing that exposes the fact that this team is not properly coached and drilled.

Fergie's great 4-4-2 United side was also full of speed, attacking talent, crazy tempo and all out attack attitude. But they were a cohesive team with a gameplan.

Would be interesting to see the OPTA Stats on distances covered, as our players did tire noticeably after an hour.

I spent 60 mins screaming at the team to play sideways and make the aging Chavski side run themselves ragged getting the ball back.

 

[hellava_tough]

I'm not quite sure what the disagreement is here... both views are compatible with the other. It's basic football, the more you make the ball do the work the more the other team have to work, physically and mentally. It makes life a truckload easier then when it comes to grafting off the ball ourselves, something we haven't quite collectively got to grips with yet. We surrender possession far too easily, unlike the Barcas of the world, so we immediately have to do the hard graft for longer, which means the young minds of our team are more suspect to switching off. BC is right about mental and physical conditioning here, I just don't see it quite as bluntly as he makes out.

We can do it, we have done it - perhaps the most impressive I've seen us in all departments is Man City at home last season, in my opinion our best performance under Redknapp.

Yeah, that was a special performance (as Harry said after the game) and one that highlights my point as well - we failed to score!!

 

[mil1lion]

We're a long long way from keeping the ball like Barca (as is everyone else really) but we can keep the ball better than we have been of late. I've been surprised by the number of loose balls played by Modric lately for example (not a huge amount but more than usual for him). Maybe it is the combination of having 2 wingers and 2 strikers who dont link up well enough with the midfield. I do think if we had VDV and Huddlestone against Chelsea we would've kept the ball a lot better. Our biggest problem is giving the ball away and then having to work extra hard to win it back again.

The biggest difference between us and Barca in terms of the shape of the team is in the middle. What Barca do so well is dominate the heart of the pitch yet still have width aswell. Alves provides most of the width down the right, Villa covers a lot of the width down the left (with a bit of support from Maxwell) yet they have Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and Pedro all interchaning through the middle. This is where we give the ball away a lot because there aren't as many options through the middle and we end up going for a more ambitious ball to either wide man or striker. The distance between the centre midfielders and strikers becomes stretched and thats where we often give the ball away. We're not compact enough centrally.

In the past we had Keane and Berbatov offer a lot more to the centre midfielders, plus we had Malbranque in from the left. So there were plenty more options from centre midfield. I think thats why the Huddlestone and Modric partnership is our best one in the middle, simply because we need 2 excellent passers to overcome the problem. Now we have VDV in there I think we should have that extra body to link up with the 2 central midfielders. So we shouldn't give the ball away as easily.

 

[ShelfSide18]

Yeah, that was a special performance (as Harry said after the game) and one that highlights my point as well - we failed to score!!

I was talking about the 3-0 last season :grin:

 

[Mr Pink]

We're a long long way from keeping the ball like Barca (as is everyone else really) but we can keep the ball better than we have been of late. I've been surprised by the number of loose balls played by Modric lately for example (not a huge amount but more than usual for him). Maybe it is the combination of having 2 wingers and 2 strikers who dont link up well enough with the midfield. I do think if we had VDV and Huddlestone against Chelsea we would've kept the ball a lot better. Our biggest problem is giving the ball away and then having to work extra hard to win it back again.

The biggest difference between us and Barca in terms of the shape of the team is in the middle. What Barca do so well is dominate the heart of the pitch yet still have width aswell. Alves provides most of the width down the right, Villa covers a lot of the width down the left (with a bit of support from Maxwell) yet they have Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and Pedro all interchaning through the middle. This is where we give the ball away a lot because there aren't as many options through the middle and we end up going for a more ambitious ball to either wide man or striker. The distance between the centre midfielders and strikers becomes stretched and thats where we often give the ball away. We're not compact enough centrally.

In the past we had Keane and Berbatov offer a lot more to the centre midfielders, plus we had Malbranque in from the left. So there were plenty more options from centre midfield. I think thats why the Huddlestone and Modric partnership is our best one in the middle, simply because we need 2 excellent passers to overcome the problem. Now we have VDV in there I think we should have that extra body to link up with the 2 central midfielders. So we shouldn't give the ball away as easily.

Completely agree.

 

[hellava_tough]

I was talking about the 3-0 last season :grin:

sorry, completely failed to read your post properly

But my point still stands about the result and performance this year