The Steve Hitchen thread

[shelfboy68]

And yet.....here I am in this thread, repeatedly criticising our recruitment setup and lack of a consistent footballing philosophy!

For all of which, Daniel Levy is responsible.

I would never had guessed you have done a great job of hiding it.
??

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Have to disagree.

Peak Danny Rose was better.

I was a big fan of Benny, though.

Between midway through 14/15 and midway through 16/17 there’s an argument that Rose was the best, but I think BAE was better defensively and without bombing up the field, gave far more to our attack with those beautiful cutting passes from deep (which Bale and Modric thrived off).

There are arguments for both, but I preferred Benny, plus he was just great fun to watch as well. I never felt uneasy about his Cruyff turns out of danger.

 

[shelfboy68]

Doesn't the fact that they all (apart from Mitchell) went on to bigger jobs/clubs tell you something about what might actually be happening though?

Come on mate if you want to be considered as a big club start fucking acting like one otherwise paint the badge claret and blue and become west ham.

 

[RichieS]

Not one to jump to Hitchen's defence usually, but this isn't the worst track record when looked at objectively:

16/17:
wanyama 11m - GOOD buy
janssen 17m - SHIT buy but unlucky as on paper had all the makings
nkoudou 11m - SHT buy
sissoko 30m - GOOD buy (he's played almost 200 games for us now)
lopez loan

17/18:
gazzaniga 4m - GOOD buy for a cheap backup keeper
sanchez 38m - UNDECIDED (probably a shit buy but he's still youngish and failed by our coaching / setup IMO)
foyth 8m - GOOD buy, we'll very likely make money on him when we sell
aurier 23m - SHIT buy, not worth the money we paid
llorente 12m - GOOD buy for a rotation striker that had some class about him and could score
lucas 25m - GOOD buy

19/20:
sessegnon 30m - UNDECIDED as he could still become a star
lo celso 42m - GOOD buy if somewhat overpriced
ndombele 55m - GOOD buy
clarke 10m - UNDECIDED but probably will be good based on either selling him for a profit or bringing into the team
bergwijn 27m - UNDECIDED but looking more and more like a shit buy at that price
gedson loan

20/21:
hojbjerg 15m - GOOD buy, signing of the summer
doherty 15m - SHIT buy
reguilon 27m - GOOD buy
rodon 11m - GOOD buy for a cheap HG CB that seems to be up to the quality required at his age
hart 0 - GOOD buy, who doesn't like a decent HG rotation keeper for free
bale loan
vinicius loan

16/17 was Mitchell in the summer and no-one in January (Hitchen joined in February '17).

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Come on mate if you want to be considered as a big club start fucking acting like one otherwise paint the badge claret and blue and become west ham.

This is just gratuitous. It has nothing to do with what was posted.

 

[shelfboy68]

This is just gratuitous. It has nothing to do with what was posted.

Respectfully disagree mate

 

[Blake Griffin]

Not one to jump to Hitchen's defence usually, but this isn't the worst track record when looked at objectively:

16/17:
wanyama 11m - GOOD buy
janssen 17m - SHIT buy but unlucky as on paper had all the makings
nkoudou 11m - SHT buy
sissoko 30m - GOOD buy (he's played almost 200 games for us now)
lopez loan

17/18:
gazzaniga 4m - GOOD buy for a cheap backup keeper
sanchez 38m - UNDECIDED (probably a shit buy but he's still youngish and failed by our coaching / setup IMO)
foyth 8m - GOOD buy, we'll very likely make money on him when we sell
aurier 23m - SHIT buy, not worth the money we paid
llorente 12m - GOOD buy for a rotation striker that had some class about him and could score
lucas 25m - GOOD buy

19/20:
sessegnon 30m - UNDECIDED as he could still become a star
lo celso 42m - GOOD buy if somewhat overpriced
ndombele 55m - GOOD buy
clarke 10m - UNDECIDED but probably will be good based on either selling him for a profit or bringing into the team
bergwijn 27m - UNDECIDED but looking more and more like a shit buy at that price
gedson loan

20/21:
hojbjerg 15m - GOOD buy, signing of the summer
doherty 15m - SHIT buy
reguilon 27m - GOOD buy
rodon 11m - GOOD buy for a cheap HG CB that seems to be up to the quality required at his age
hart 0 - GOOD buy, who doesn't like a decent HG rotation keeper for free
bale loan
vinicius loan

i'm not going through them all but if we were to replicate the above level of signings for the next five years, do you think that's going to get us to where we want to be? or even anywhere near where we were competing only a few seasons ago? how do those signings compare to those we made in the five years prior - lloris, trippier, alderweireld, dier, vertonghen, sandro, parker, dembele, eriksen, dele, van der vaart, son?

you might classify lo celso and ndombele as good signings and hopefully they prove to be in time but we're almost two years in now and for 100m they've not delivered on that investment. a lot of those you've classed as good i would lean more towards "ok", they fulfilled a role to a competent degree but hardly players that were pivotal to our success. wanyama for a season was a great buy, hojbjerg so far has been a great buy, a couple of others show potential of being good, the rest range between bleh and terrible.

 

[RichieS]

Come on mate if you want to be considered as a big club start fucking acting like one otherwise paint the badge claret and blue and become west ham.

Look, I understand that if the "68" in your username relates to either your year of birth or the year you started supporting Spurs then you well remember a time when Spurs were one of the very biggest clubs in the country.

What you need to understand is that there have subsequently been a couple of generations of football fans and several generations of football players who don't see Spurs that way.

Our hard-earned (re)emergence as one of the big boys has been signalled with the completion of the stadium, the recent Champions League runs and the hiring of Mourinho. In that timeframe, the only one of the discussed "DoF's" that has left has been Birch, and he was offered one of the top jobs in English football. I don't think getting a board member to turn down such an opportunity is quite the same as stopping a player with significant time left on his contract from leaving!

 

[shelfboy68]

Look, I understand that if the "68" in your username relates to either your year of birth or the year you started supporting Spurs then you well remember a time when Spurs were one of the very biggest clubs in the country.

What you need to understand is that there have subsequently been a couple of generations of football fans and several generations of football players who don't see Spurs that way.

Our hard-earned (re)emergence as one of the big boys has been signalled with the completion of the stadium, the recent Champions League runs and the hiring of Mourinho. In that timeframe, the only one of the discussed "DoF's" that has left has been Birch, and he was offered one of the top jobs in English football. I don't think getting a board member to turn down such an opportunity is quite the same as stopping a player with significant time left on his contract from leaving!

This I think is where the fanbase gets divided because with people my age who remember successful times when yes we were a bigger club.
Then there are people of your age group for who finishing top six and reaching semi finals and occasional final is success.
There always seems excuses as to our current position whether it be covid, stadium, smallpox outbreak in Africa or rise of the footsoldier something holds us back.

 

[LeParisien]

Fantastic way of sidestepping the fact that you've just completely massively contradicted yourself, have to hand it to you.

I cannot believe you are a grown man. You post like you’re in your early to mid 20s - always petty and focused on agendas and drama.

As I have clarified to the person whose post I responded to the bulk of my objection was focused on his claim questioning whether Hitchen knows about analytics which is the kind of very precise claim no one can claim knowledge of. I agree with that poster that we can discuss outcomes for the team.

 

[shelfboy68]

I cannot believe you are a grown man. You post like you’re in your early to mid 20s - always petty and focused on agendas and drama.

As I have clarified to the person whose post I responded to the bulk of my objection was focused on his claim questioning whether Hitchen knows about analytics which is the kind of very precise claim no one can claim knowledge of. I agree with that poster that we can discuss outcomes for the team.

Someone else has finally rumbled him.

 

[Matthew]

Steve Hitchin is very highly regarded in the game, and has superb connections.

genuine question, not questioning the info - is there anyone he's been instrumental in us getting?

 

[Shadydan]

I cannot believe you are a grown man. You post like you’re in your early to mid 20s - always petty and focused on agendas and drama.

As I have clarified to the person whose post I responded to the bulk of my objection was focused on his claim questioning whether Hitchen knows about analytics which is the kind of very precise claim no one can claim knowledge of. I agree with that poster that we can discuss outcomes for the team.

Agenda's funny word that - I think that describes your tirade against Jose which has been the case from day one, so much so you contradict yourself so much when it comes to defending someone else yet not using the same logic when it comes to Jose, that's the contradiction.

You said the below about Hitchen:

I think what you should have said is “I’m not in a position to judge Hitchen’s qualities or areas of expertise because I am terribly placed to make such a judgement”. Would that not be a fairer assessment?

Im not aware the guy has ever eaten spaghetti bolognese or been to Mexico or listened to French House music. But I don’t try to suggest I have knowledge of such things because I am not aware of them. Similarly it’s not fair for you to infer anything about his grasp of analytics.

The reality is that someone in Hitchen’s role has to deliver maximum outcomes with given resources. You do the best you can for the organisation within the constraints you have. Of course his job is not the same as playing as Man City or PSG on football manager. It’s likely that money was particularly tight as the stadium overran and so the types of renewals or signings Hitchen might have liked to carry out would not have been possible. Since the stadium opened we’ve seen pretty decent investment.

Remember also that money is just one type of resource as the manager and opportunity/luck also play a significant role.

Sorry if this post seems pissy but it’s quite common that people assume that others are incompetent despite having relatively little insight into the conditions under which that job is carried out. There is so much that is opaque to us.

And you said this about Jose:

Also all this «you have no idea what it’s like to manage professionally so your view doesn’t count » argument is nonsense. Nobody is saying they could do a better job than him. They are making an analytical comment about how he is doing his job ie badly. By Mourinhos own shitty logic he can’t comment on the performance of footballers because he was never a player. In fact that very same shitty logic was used against him by Ramos when the Real Madrid players turned against him.

The point is not about whether Mourinho knows what he’s talking about. He obviously does. The point is about whether you need to be a professional football manager to make worthwhile analysis about football. Clearly you don’t. The skills required to analyse a situation are not the same as the skills required to lead or manage that same situation. Not a remotely controversial position. Otherwise there’s a lot of mugs paying for worthless MBAs.

Save the mental gymnastics, it's garbage - you know it.

 

[LeParisien]

Agenda's funny word that - I think that describes your tirade against Jose which has been the case from day one, so much so you contradict yourself so much when it comes to defending someone else yet not using the same logic when it comes to Jose, that's the contradiction.

You said the below about Hitchen:



And you said this about Jose:

Save the mental gymnastics, it's garbage - you know it.

I’d think you were trolling me but you’ve gone to the trouble of finding quotes from another thread so I guess you must think you have a point.

Let me clear this up for you...

The first quote from this thread in response to SLD was unfocused because I had a 3 year old crawling on me. I quickly clarified that I was referring to this part of SLD’s post:

“Certainly, I'm not aware of him having any expertise in analytics - as Michael Edwards at Liverpool does, for instance. Yet analytics is now a key element of his remit.”

That is a specific claim that I don’t think is justifiable to make. It’s not based on any observation we can make. That’s why I objected - it’s pure speculation used to condemn someone. And if you reread my post in that light you’ll understand my argument better.

My other comments simply say that we can judge outcomes on the pitch and have reasonable discussion as fans. That’s what I’ve said in this thread here. And I stand by it.

There’s no mental gymnastics here. It’s an entirely coherent and reasonable position.

You’re right to say I was against Mourinho from day 1. I gave him time and wanted him to succeed but I didn’t think it was a good appointment. I am BSoDL but I blame Levy for poor judgement. I articulated clear reasons for my scepticism and those have come to pass. I was right about that issue. Don’t get angry at me for that.

Besides I was wrong about Poch. I wanted van Gaal or even de Boer and they would have been terrible. So I don’t think I have special judgement .

Anyway, hope that clears things up for you.

 

[Shadydan]

There’s no mental gymnastics here.

? Okay

 

[razzmaster]

Agenda's funny word that - I think that describes your tirade against Jose which has been the case from day one, so much so you contradict yourself so much when it comes to defending someone else yet not using the same logic when it comes to Jose, that's the contradiction.

You said the below about Hitchen:



And you said this about Jose:





Save the mental gymnastics, it's garbage - you know it.

To be fair, pretty much everyone has got an agenda, whether intentional or not..

You're quoting Alli Gold again...

Yeah but it's Ali Gold.

You can't use him as a source, he just says what the club wants you to hear.

I know this is a fact, because a very strongly opinionated member who shall remain nameless (but his name kind of rhymes with "Brady Can" ) has told me many times when I've quoted Mr Gold in the past.

For example, you quote Ali Gold but other people can't? Maybe because it suited your agenda?

 

[Shadydan]

To be fair, pretty much everyone has got an agenda, whether intentional or not..






For example, you quote Ali Gold but other people can't? Maybe because it suited your agenda?

Fair post that

 

[LeParisien]

? Okay

Of course you stop engaging when you realise you were wrong. Fair enough

 

[Shadydan]

Of course you stop engaging when you realise you were wrong. Fair enough

I said no mental gymnastics and all I see is mental gymnastics

I switched off when you made the excuse of having a 3 year old crawling over you which is an absolutely hilarious excuse by the way, the only crawling I see is you trying to justify the nonsense in this post - how do you expect me to engage to that?

 

[LeParisien]

I said no mental gymnastics and all I see is mental gymnastics

I switched off when you made the excuse of having a 3 year old crawling over you which is an absolutely hilarious excuse by the way, the only crawling I see is you trying to justify the nonsense in this post - how do you expect me to engage to that?

Well I’m glad you’ve admitted to not even trying to engage. That’s at least an honest approach and I can respect the honesty. That doesn’t change the fact it is coherent to say that we can’t make comments about Hitchins knowledge about analytics but we can make comments about the performance of the team. But keep burying your head.

No one with kids will be surprised by that - believe it or not they’re more important than being right on Spurs community. “I don’t know what it’s like to have kids so you’re just using them as an excuse” is a pretty shitty, incel thing to argue. But you do you.