ITK Dragon1-berbs 100% wants out

we_all_loved_freund · Apr 13, 2008

sloth said:
The thing about the Webster rule is it will crash like a Tsunami through the world of football. We're not talking mere Bosman here we're talking about the very foundations on which football is run. If contracts can't be trusted and players can't be sold for fortunes, then clubs will go to the wall and players won't be employed at all. The really funny thing about the Webster rule is that if it is enacted it will in fairly short order mean player's wages are reduced. Clubs won't be able to afford them because they won't have any tangible assets beyond the fans and TV money. You might think the big clubs would be laughing all the way to the bank, but without competition they're stuffed. You may, I suppose, see a world league one day, with franchised players and teams etc. but that'll be the day the game dies in this country.

Anyway, I'm pretty certain the Webster rule is not as cut and dried as all that, I'm also certain that no one will want to be the first Judas and enact it. Agents aren't going to want it because there will be less going around for them and the clubs can simply make a pact in everyone's best interests (even Chelsea's), to not use it or not employ players who have.

On the Berbatov question, he won't go because no one will offer more the £18m which is about what a player with his temprament is worth. He's no Ronaldo or Torres and it's not because he hasn't the ability but because he hasn't the attitude. The only club who might possibly have a go is Milan but other than that I can't see any of the big boys wanting him.

I disagree, i dont think it will have a particulary big impact...

It only applies to players who are over the age of 28 with 2 or less years left on the contract... all it effectively means is that contracts will have to be renegotiated earlier. Clubs just have to make sure that a player who is over the age of 28 and who they want to keep always has at least 2yrs left. it just brings forward the end date of the contract really? clubs will just adapt their contract policy slightly. There is no way clubs which are now also companies are going to let this effect them to the degree you mentioned

:shrug:

Krafty · Apr 13, 2008

Whether we become good enough to challenge for a Champions League place depends less on Berbatov staying and more on addressing the major problems of the team, mainly a leader in midfield, and a left footed winger.

Bent can become a very good striker for us if we get service in. Berbatov and Keane mask the lack of creativity we have in midfield, often involving themselves in the build up as well as the finish.

Obviously the best thing would be to keep Berbatov, get in a creative midfielder, who is also a leader/general and organiser, but Berbatov's future is not the main issue that will determine whether we become a top 4 team or not.

FMA · Apr 13, 2008

TheChosenOne said:
Milan, 5th in serie A, are increasingly looking like not being able to qualify for the Champions League next year.
I dunno if Berbs would go there for a UEFA Cup placement, despite Ronaldinho supposedly going there too.

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

hybridsoldier · Apr 13, 2008

Krafty said:
Whether we become good enough to challenge for a Champions League place depends less on Berbatov staying and more on addressing the major problems of the team, mainly a leader in midfield, and a left footed winger.

Bent can become a very good striker for us if we get service in. Berbatov and Keane mask the lack of creativity we have in midfield, often involving themselves in the build up as well as the finish.

Obviously the best thing would be to keep Berbatov, get in a creative midfielder, who is also a leader/general and organiser, but Berbatov's future is not the main issue that will determine whether we become a top 4 team or not.

I've been saying this since Carrick left! Finally someone echos my sentiments!

I would be totally gutted if he left but I think if we get midfielders who can provide service, Bent can be deadly and Keane will also prosper

sloth · Apr 13, 2008

eddiebailey said:
Fed up of reading about Berbs' "attitude". People pay too much attention to his body language and not enough to his match winning contributions. And if he occasionally shows his frustration, who can blame him? You wait to see how much his "attitude" improves once he gets decent service in a team competing for major honours.

And I'm fed up with people making excuses for his prima donna behaviour. If you saw Torres at Atletico you'd know he never once flounced because a team-mate misplaced a pass (Berbatov does it a dozen times a game). Do you think Roy Keane used to act like that at Forest? It's got nothing to do with the quality of the players around him and everything to do with being a prat.

You'll be pleased to know however, that i think this means he won't be going to a big club in the summer, so you'll have another season at least to defend the indefensible.

P-L-P · Apr 13, 2008

sloth said:
And I'm fed up with people making excuses for his prima donna behaviour. If you saw Torres at Atletico you'd know he never once flounced because a team-mate misplaced a pass (Berbatov does it a dozen times a game). Do you think Roy Keane used to act like that at Forest? It's got nothing to do with the quality of the players around him and everything to do with being a prat.

You'll be pleased to know however, that i think this means he won't be going to a big club in the summer, so you'll have another season at least to defend the indefensible.

Why should he have to put up with the shit around him.

He sets high targets, that is why he is who he is.

We celebrate mediocrity in this country too much, hence why Robbie Keane is so highly regarded.

yanno · Apr 13, 2008

sloth said:
It's got nothing to do with the quality of the players around him and everything to do with being a prat.

You'll be pleased to know however, that i think this means he won't be going to a big club in the summer, so you'll have another season at least to defend the indefensible.

yanno said:
Petulance?

I give you:
Teddy Sheringham
Thierry Henry
Eric Cantona
Wayne Rooney
Paul "I only answer to The Guvnor" Ince
Steve Archibald (who rather than chasing Hoddle's through balls would turn and scream abuse at him)
Etc

Berba's "petulance" isn't in the same class as any of the above.

He does get frustrated when his teammates play at a lower level than him, and when things don't break in our favour. It doesn't stop him being a great player.

sloth - I addressed your "petulance" point in my answer above. Henry's behaviour at the goons was ten times worse than Berba's, and it didn't stop him getting a move to Barca.

If we'd spent our huge summer transfer budget on established, quality, EPL ready players in positions we needed - LM, CM, CB - then Berba wouldn't be getting frustrated at his service. If the ITK is true, we've lost a great player in the tradition of Hoddle, Gazza, Ginola, Sheringham, and the tragedy is that some of our fans don't even seem to realize that we're losing our best player.

Spurs_Q8 · Apr 13, 2008

If he really wants out, he can go.

No one is bigger than this club.

Also, it is very good to get £30m for 27 year old striker and while Ramos is here, I think we can get someone could suit our style of football with half of that price !

P-L-P · Apr 13, 2008

Spurs_Q8 said:
If he really wants out, he can go.

No one is bigger than this club.

Also, it is very good to get £30m for 27 year old striker and while Ramos is here, I think we can get someone could suit our style of football with half of that price !

The club has plenty of cash Q8. No need to sell IMO.

If hr wants to go we must sell him abroad.

N10toN17 · Apr 13, 2008

We'll be a better team with or without Berba next year. Hopefully.

nidge · Apr 13, 2008

sloth said:
And I'm fed up with people making excuses for his prima donna behaviour. If you saw Torres at Atletico you'd know he never once flounced because a team-mate misplaced a pass (Berbatov does it a dozen times a game). Do you think Roy Keane used to act like that at Forest? It's got nothing to do with the quality of the players around him and everything to do with being a prat.

You'll be pleased to know however, that i think this means he won't be going to a big club in the summer, so you'll have another season at least to defend the indefensible.

Odd you mention Torres because watching the Liverpool v Blackburn game and Kuyt had the ball and could have played it over the top to Torres but, he didn't and Torres reaction was to throw his arms in the air much in the same way Berbatov does at the moment.

P-L-P · Apr 13, 2008

nidge said:
Odd you mention Torres because watching the Liverpool v Blackburn game and Kuyt had the ball and could have played it over the top to Torres but, he didn't and Torres reaction was to throw his arms in the air much in the same way Berbatov does at the moment.

:rofl: I saw that too, timing couldn't be any better.

:rofl: The sloth has mugged himself right off in this thread.

diegooners · Apr 13, 2008

double0 said:
Berbatov is not bigger than the club. I do concede his better than the players surrounding him at the moment. When he leaves for a champions league club IMO he'll become just an average player just like Carrick.

Yeah.... If Berbatov goes to Man U he'll be their second or third best player. From that team only Ronaldo and possibly Rio are of higher calibre in their selected positions currently. I suppose that is fairly average...

diegooners · Apr 13, 2008

sloth said:
The thing about the Webster rule is it will crash like a Tsunami through the world of football. We're not talking mere Bosman here we're talking about the very foundations on which football is run. If contracts can't be trusted and players can't be sold for fortunes, then clubs will go to the wall and players won't be employed at all. The really funny thing about the Webster rule is that if it is enacted it will in fairly short order mean player's wages are reduced. Clubs won't be able to afford them because they won't have any tangible assets beyond the fans and TV money. You might think the big clubs would be laughing all the way to the bank, but without competition they're stuffed. You may, I suppose, see a world league one day, with franchised players and teams etc. but that'll be the day the game dies in this country.

Anyway, I'm pretty certain the Webster rule is not as cut and dried as all that, I'm also certain that no one will want to be the first Judas and enact it. Agents aren't going to want it because there will be less going around for them and the clubs can simply make a pact in everyone's best interests (even Chelsea's), to not use it or not employ players who have.

On the Berbatov question, he won't go because no one will offer more the £18m which is about what a player with his temprament is worth. He's no Ronaldo or Torres and it's not because he hasn't the ability but because he hasn't the attitude. The only club who might possibly have a go is Milan but other than that I can't see any of the big boys wanting him.

I think the vast majority of well informed neutrals will tell you that they prefer watching Berbatov than Torres.... which means his value is higher.

dvdhopeful · Apr 13, 2008

I'd still hope that with Ramos there, a partnership he seems to enjoy with Keano (Notice he never gets mad at Keano?) and a promise proven class will be brought in in the summer, it would be enough to get at least another 6 months out of him. Someone has already said that this could be the same as when Carrick left. Its upto management to ensure that that doesn't happen. It's arguable if even now we have got over Carrick, so if Berbs does go, things need to move quickly and quality replacements brought in.

I'd also say what I've said for the last 12 months, that if Berbs does go, then he needs to go abroad. If we are ever to break top four, then we must not sell such a big impact player to a rival. If Berbs refuses to stay, then we refuse to sell within the EPL. A player of his quality will always attract attention regardless of what other teams already have, he'd strengthen anyone.

dvdhopeful · Apr 13, 2008

diegooners said:
I think the vast majority of well informed neutrals will tell you that they prefer watching Berbatov than Torres.... which means his value is higher.

Teams will base value upon productivity not how pretty they make the game look. At this moment Torres is worth more than Berbs, not to mention his age, it's not even comparible imo.

Having said that, 40m for Berbs please

soup · Apr 13, 2008

eddiebailey said:
Fed up of reading about Berbs' "attitude". People pay too much attention to his body language and not enough to his match winning contributions. And if he occasionally shows his frustration, who can blame him? You wait to see how much his "attitude" improves once he gets decent service in a team competing for major honours.

So because he's 'above our level', you're prepared to accept that he has a bad attitude while we are paying his wages? To me it's unacceptable. Sure, throwing his arms in the air ain't the be all and end all, but when a full back runs 2 yards past him almost every gameand he doesn't even attempt to even stick a leg out to try and stop him that's okay is it? To me it's not even professional.

I realize, and have stuck up for his style before, as one minute he can be pulling up his socks and the next he controls a ball and does something magical with it, but we're not a good enough team to put up with his 'luxurious' style for a whole 90 minutes.

It just seems to have got to a point where people will argue that Keane is shit, Jenas is shit, Robinson is shit, Huddlestone is shit, Dawson is shit, Lennon is shit but Berbatov can be excused because he's Berbatov. When Berbatov plays well it's because he's world class but when he plays like shit it's the fault of anyone but him.

Sure, he'll look better at ManU but so would Keane or Bent, that says nothing about him. The only thing that would earn him a place at such a club will end up being his skills, not his temperament, not his teamwork and not his attitude.

stemark44 · Apr 13, 2008

Anyone who thinks players like Berbatov and Carrick 'grow on trees' are delusional!
We have'nt recovered from the loss of Carrick defensively or creatively and Berbatov holds us together in an attacking sense - all our best work there goes through him.
I think Levy will do his best not to sell him in the summer and if we keep him to his contract - will he really be focused enough to help the side progress?

DC_Boy · Apr 13, 2008

In looking at productivity - I'd like to know how many assists Torres has - how many times he's crucially involved in moves that lead to a goal (ie not assists - but pre-assists if you like eg yesterday)

I really have no idea on Torres stats - what i am sure is that Berbs is oneof the most productive strikers in the country (and a joy to watch from an aesethetic point of view as well- he was full of superb bits of skill and trickery yesterday)

SpurSince57 · Apr 13, 2008

DC_Boy said:
In looking at productivity - I'd like to know how many assists Torres has - how many times he's crucially involved in moves that lead to a goal (ie not assists - but pre-assists if you like eg yesterday)

I really have no idea on Torres stats - what i am sure is that Berbs is oneof the most productive strikers in the country (and a joy to watch from an aesethetic point of view as well- he was full of superb bits of skill and trickery yesterday)

The source of all knowledge:

http://telegraph.jumpmediagroup.com/PlayerStat.aspx?p1id=5127&p2id=3789

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