►►►►►► Ratings -vs- Queens Park Rangers◄◄◄◄◄◄

Discussion in 'Spurs Chat' started by OmarsComing, Sep 23, 2012.

Spurs' Man of the Match

  1. Friedel

    1.9%
  2. Walker

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Gallas

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Vertonghen

    91.0%
  5. Bale

    0.6%
  6. Lennon

    2.5%
  7. Sandro

    1.2%
  8. Dembele

    0.6%
  9. Dempsey

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Sigardsson

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. Defoe

    0.6%
  12. Caulker

    0.6%
  13. Huddlestone

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  14. Townsend

    0.9%
  1. robbiedee

    robbiedee Mama said knock you out

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    +5,041 / 21 / -14
    Vertongan (9)is MOM. Didn't really put a foot wrong, made that tackle and was strong going forward too. As many have said gets better and better each time he plays. It's no coincidence he was voted Dutch player of the year.

    Caulker (7)came on and helped sure things up at the back in the 2nd half.

    Bale (7) proved to everyone that his days at LB days are over (IMO).

    Defoe (6) did alright but that clint hill was pretty good at the back and Defoe didn't get the service he needs.

    Lennon (6) seemed to have a better game and I'm still not convinced with Dempsey (6)...I think I need to watch him on and off the ball more.

    It would be unfair to opt against Brad (7)I suppose but I'm i'm not fussed if it's him or Lloris in goal. I guess time will tell - at least it's not my decision.

    I'd give all other players somewhere between 6 and 7. Not a great performance but a massive 3 points. COYS
     
  2. StartingPrice

    StartingPrice Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip

    Messages:
    32,443
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    +10,482 / 107 / -86
    No, what he proved was that his form is really pretty poor ATM.

    That argument is illogical.
     
  3. robbiedee

    robbiedee Mama said knock you out

    Messages:
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    What argument?

    It's my opinion?!?!
     
  4. Yid-ol

    Yid-ol Just-in-Edinburgh

    Messages:
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    +4,829 / 106 / -56
    In that case, your oppinion was wrong as SP disagreed with it (n)
     
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  5. StartingPrice

    StartingPrice Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip

    Messages:
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    You are entitled to your opinion.
    But the argument, that several posters have made, that his poor play form left-back proves that he is no suitible to play left-back, is what is called a non-sequitor - it does not follow. And you are basing your opinion on that false argument. If you still want to hold the opinion that is fine. If you want to post on here that your opinion is validated by his poor performance yesterday, then it is perfectly within reason for me to point out my opinion that basing your opinion on that logical fallacy is poor logic - and I can back my opinion up with argument. Are you saying my opinion is wrong?

    Bale didn't show little in an attacking sense from left-back because he was moved to left-back and isn't a left-back. That was supposed to be his main strnegth, as a left-back and the reason folk wanted him pushed forward. He showed little in an attacking sense as a left-back yesterday because he was poor, and his form has been poor (yet more rewriting of things to suit predispositions). He wasn't particularly great when he was moved forward, either - yes, he contributed to the second goal, but it isn't like he was having a barnstorming game before then - he most certainly wasn't. He only looked so much better after that because Rangers went two down and had to really open themselves up in pursuit of an equaliser, exposing the fact that they only had a couple of genuine defenders on the pitch and leaving masses of space for him to run into. Vertonghen showed more in an attacking sense after five minutes, from left-back, than Bale did in the whole of the first half - that wasn't because Bale isn't a left-back, but because he was pish-poor. How could Bale be such a fantastic attacking threat from left-back, causing folk to want him moved forward and yet be so poor in comparison to Vertonghen in the same position, if it was just because he was moved to left-back. It, literally, makes no logical sense to make that argument. He was poor because he was poor and his form has been poor, not because he was forced to play left-back.

    No-one, so far as I have seen, has been making the argument that Bale is no longer a left-winger because his form has been poor from there for quite some time, have they.

    So. If you want to believe he should no longer be considered or played at left-back, as an opinion, that is fine. If you want to state on a public forum that poor performance yesterday proves that, then other members of that public forum are allowed to question that argument. Or are you one of those posters who believes that his/her post is sacrosanct and no-one should be able to question it?
     
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  6. steve

    steve Well-Known Member

    Messages:
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    He's not in the same bracket as the players you mention. He doesn't (and didn't at Swansea) contribute enough on the ball in open play. He's a decent technician, 2 footed, and he can score goals but his movement thus far has been very poor - you have to watch him closely at games to fully appreciate how much energy he wastes constantly moving in areas he just can't receive the ball in. He lacks the personality to grab games by the scruff of the neck and it's night and day between him and the player he's replaced (VDV).

    I agree the service was poor yesterday and I agree he can do better than he is currently, especially with Adebayor playing, but he doesn't and never will come close to the likes of Kagawa, Hazard, Cazorla, Silva, Lampard or VDV.
     
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  7. mendesstormer

    mendesstormer Active Member

    Messages:
    587
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    +281 / 15 / -6
    Thanks for replies bugsdad, SB and DM. Sounds like a pretty poor performance all round, but yes winning ugly doesn't hurt now and again. I guess I'm still wondering if there's mileage in keeping Bale at LB for a time to remind him of his defensive responsibilities. Interesting to hear from some that Verts was so good coming forward. Does make you wonder if he might prove to be the best LB in the squad (as well as the best CB, possibly?)
     
  8. robbiedee

    robbiedee Mama said knock you out

    Messages:
    2,147
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    +5,041 / 21 / -14
    Thanks...I'll take that

    I'll maintain that I didn't start any arguments though...however, in your argument, you make some valid points so I'm going to back track slightly (something Bale didn't do very well on Sunday) and say that maybe stating his LB days are over was a bit of an inaccurate generalisation based on 1 performance, albeit 45 minutes at LB.

    I thought he looked uncomfortable there, he was forward more often than back, leaving space for qpr in the area where you'd expect a LB to be. He also wasn't forward enough to be LW which I felt left him drifting on the left to ill effect. His tackling wasn't great and he just looked un natural in the role.

    I understand that the AVB system should see the LB moving further up the pitch with the CB (Vertongan) covering that area etc etc but I don't think this happened on occasions and qpr were able to get in round the back, with SWP getting some useful crosses in.

    Maybe if Bale played there a bit more he would grow more comfortable and look more natural but he didn't on Sunday. However I do agree with your point that he hasn't been his best in any position, so yes, it could just be a indication of poorish form.

    I was one of those who thought Naughton was doing well, out of position, and in his absence, was worried what AVB might do.

    I don't think we'll see Bale in that position again (unless last resort cover). Maybe it was worth a try and whether it is because Bales form is below par or because he as a player is no longer happy there I don't know.

    I think Bale has pace in bagfuls, he can whip a cross in from the left, he can get past his man (usually) without too much trouble, but the two key attributes for a LB (in the traditional sense) are tackling and tracking back. Bale didn't really do either very well.

    So, without arguing much, and probably agreeing more...hopefully from my obsrervations (based on 45 minutes granted) validate my initial statement (not argument). :censored: I'm off to another thread before I get shot down again!!!
     
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  9. StartingPrice

    StartingPrice Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip

    Messages:
    32,443
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    +10,482 / 107 / -86
    I didn't mean that you were starting an argument, I meant that sometimes when we make a statement we are basing it on a train of thought or an argument (y)

    I, too, was happy enough with Naughton covering at LB.

    This is my issue with blaming Bale's lacklustre performance (particularly, but not exclusively, in the first half) with moving him to left-back, as plenty of posters have done:

    One of Bale's strengths at LB was always his attacking ability from that position - so we know that he can play effective attacking football from there.
    The main criticism of Bale at half time was that he was offering nothing offensively (and he wasn't).
    He still didn't show the type of play we know he is capable of when he was moved forward - yes, he was instrumental in the second goal, but if that is his only contribution in a game, he hardly warrants the reputation he has, and only after that goal when QPR had to go all out to get an equaliser and left big gaps at the back did he actually look like a decent player (and even then he was very wasteful).
    Vertonghen was at LB for five minutes and showed more in an attacking sense than Bale did in the whole of the first half - and yet we know Bale can play effective attacking football from LB.

    So, Bale was poor not because he was at LB (and thus that shouldn't invalidate him playing at LB in the future), he was poor as a continuation of his poor form all this season, and going back well into last. Indeed, as someone else suggested, he has hardly shown any form since someone decided to give him a roving role. But, as I said above, no-one has been saying he shouldn't play on the wing from now on just because his form there has been poor for quite a while.
     
  10. southlondonyiddo

    southlondonyiddo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,158
    Ratings Received:
    +3,318 / 353 / -171
    Bale has no strengths at left back. He can't defend, hence he is not, should never have been, nor should ever be a left back again. Thank you Andre
     
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  11. StartingPrice

    StartingPrice Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip

    Messages:
    32,443
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    +10,482 / 107 / -86
    That is your opinion.
    But claiming that his offensive inertia in the first half as left-back proves that he shouldn't be played at left-back again is bad logic - and that is the point that is being made. Nothing more, nothing less.
     
  12. ShelfSide18

    ShelfSide18 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,386
    Ratings Received:
    +3,317 / 22 / -9
    Well that was pretty horrible all round, but a huge result none the less.

    One thing that must be taken into consideration was our match on Thursday having a big impact on us yesterday, I was concerned beforehand and so it proved. A study has shown that when playing after just 2 days rest against a team that has had 3+ then, at home, then you are 39% less likely to win the game. Playing a strong team on Thursday certainly affected yesterdays game so it is a huge relief that we got 3 points out of it. (just switched on ESPN and seen that unbeaten Lazio lost 1-0 at home to Genoa, so they found it tough too)

    http://worldfootballacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/WFA_Study-on-recovery-days.pdf

    I think with that in mind, AVB sent us out to defend deeper than we have done so far this season and try to hit them with swift counter attacks. First half it just didn't work at all, we were poor in possession and poor out of possession. Credit to QPR, and i'm no Mark Hughes fan, but they dominated the ball and their interesting formation caused us problems, it almost resembled 4-1-3-2 at times, as SWP and Park played narrow, Faurlin sat in front of their defence and the 2 up top pressed us very well, and Hoilett dropped deep and we were outnumbered centrally, which is unusual for a middle 3. Out wide we were poor, Bale looked like he'd forgotten how to play at LB since his great 09/10 performances there and Lennon and Walker huffed and puffed on the right but that crucial bit of football intelligence eludes them when they get into good positions. It was fucking brave from Hughes the way he played his full backs, who played very high up the pitch, but it worked as they pushed our wide players back deep and kept them occupied by getting forward. I don't like Hughes, but I think he got it spot on yesterday and it is a long time since we saw a non top team dominate the ball at WHL like that. We have the players (and system) to recover the ball well, but without Modric and VDV we don't have the same ability to retain it and use it intelligently. But I guess we have to move on (he says as he watches VDV claim a brace of assists on his Hamburg debut on ESPN against Dortmund)

    Second half just became a bit of a mess all round, we looked tired and it got all a bit end to end and fortunately we got the rub we didn't deserve. I don't think the turnaround was in part due to some genius thinking on AVBs part, but if that convinces the players/fans that it was then I won't complain, because you can sense how people are just waiting to jump on his back. We've seen a mixed bag so far this season, evidence of his methods and also some bad old entrenched habits too, it shows a team that is obviously still adapting and with AVB and his clipboards and dossiers it is going to take some time. It does appear that there is a good team spirit at the moment though, which will help.

    One thing that does concern me aside from the obvious fact that we sold all our footballing brains in the summer is that do seem a little bereft of leaders on the pitch at the moment. No Parker, VDV gone, Kaboul out - Gallas is the only one I can really think of and I think it is good management from AVB to play him. When QPR got a late free kick, Gallas was barking orders, organising. That shouldn't be underestimated.

    Ratings...

    Friedel 7 2 Excellent saves, but still invites pressure onto our defence. There was a ball into our 6 yard box that just needed to be claimed but Walker had to put out for a corner, and we were under the cosh again.
    Walker 5 Didn't perform in both directions.
    Bale 6 Another underwhelming performance, at LB and LWF.
    Verthongen 9 Class, and MOTM by a million miles. Our best defender and for his part in the winner, our best moment going forward by laying in Bale perfectly.
    Gallas 7 Decent. We need him there to organise and lead us.
    Sandro 6 Not his finest hour.
    Siggy 5 One bright moment when he played a nice ball for Defoe, but other than that barely involved. It stacks up with what his stats show from last season, he doesn't see much of the ball, but he did have an impressive ratio of turning that minimal involvement into chances (like last week).
    Dembele 6.5 Faded as the game went on, has got massive ability on the ball driving forward and is willing to graft, need to complement this with brains in January.
    Dempsey 6 Worked hard, but did nothing of great note.
    Bale 6 Unispiring, I actually think Lennon understands the way AVB wants his wide men to play better so far, I don't remember him getting in behind much yet (obviously LB half excluded), it's weird because his ability to score and assist should mean he takes to this system better.
    Lennon 7 Some bright moments, and worked hard off the ball. Is adding more value to the team than Bale so far this season.
    Defoe 6 An utterly abject involvement of 5 passes in 90 minutes, that's 1 pass every 18 minutes. Extra mark for the goal, which I thought was funny how MOTD2 commentator claimed this was due to him having someone closer to him after half time, but forgetting the simple fact it had sweet fuck all to do with that fact. Goals win games yes, but the way he plays hinders the team scoring goals through his greed, lack of involvement and lack of intelligence in the final third.

    Caulker 7 Has slotted in seamlessly so far, no dramas. A good start for the lad.

    Massive, massive 3 points, but we'll play a lot better and lose this season.
     
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  13. ItsBoris

    ItsBoris Well-Known Member

    Messages:
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    +5,875 / 158 / -34
    That's not what I saw at Swansea at all.

    His movement is not poor - you don't always move to receive the ball you often move to create space as well. If you watch closely you'll see that he is very talented and smart at finding space to receive the ball in, and you'll see that he has good awareness of players around him.

    Particularly in the Reading game, he could have had a couple of goals due to his ability to find space in the box. In one instance, the shot was blocked on the line, in another, Defoe didn't lay it back to him.

    I'm very confident in this prediction, I'm sure he will become good and I think his struggles so far are just in adjusting to a new team.
     
  14. kazzah9

    kazzah9 Well-Known Member

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    +2,884 / 58 / -21
    [​IMG]
     
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  15. ShelfSide18

    ShelfSide18 Well-Known Member

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    +3,317 / 22 / -9
    At Swansea, who passed the ball all day long he still only averaged about 35 passes a game - not a huge contribution at all, but he did have an impressive ability to create goalscoring chances from that involvement.

    He's going to be useful I'd imagine, but I think people need to understand what he's about rather than waiting for him to fail in not being VDV.
     
  16. sbrustad

    sbrustad SC Supporter

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    +2,331 / 26 / -10
    Another problem is that since he played for a weaker team AND came from a different league he was offered much more time on the ball. Playing for us he's going to be closed down and won't have nearly as much time on the ball as he did last season.

    He hasn't been stellar yet, but I expect he's going to improve as he learns how to adapt his game.

    As a side note, it's been a long time since I've seen such a clear winner of the MOTM poll. 91.6% Vertonghen now. Fully deserved.
     
  17. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

    Messages:
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    +45,396 / 2,086 / -622
    If you look at those saves again DM, and I have, most really aren't exceptional. The first one he made from the corner header looked spectacular live, but later watching it rerun and replayed the ball basically goes straight at him (or about 5 inches from hi head) if he hadn't saved it I'd have been very disappointed.

    I may be being harsh but even at the time I thought he went down way to quick for the goal. And I completely disagree about Gomes coming for stuff, defenders love it when a keeper takes responsibility because he can get to things that they can't. I've seen several times now, Friedel cause our defenders anxiety where they have expected him to come out and he hasn't.
     
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  18. ShelfSide18

    ShelfSide18 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
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    +3,317 / 22 / -9
    My stat app tells me that Defoe managed 1 pass in the first half.

    And that was when we kicked off.

    Fucking hell.
     
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  19. jair1970

    jair1970 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,481
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    +14,950 / 254 / -86
    Just to pick up on a couple of points:

    I think he's every chance to become our best player full stop.

    Regarding Sigurdsson, I think he's had a poor start but there are a lot of people that are being far too quick to write him off. For me, he's just not quite on the wavelength of some of our other forwards yet and with time that should come. A few times, i've noticed him take up good positions and it's almost as if our 'old guard' don't trust him yet. Also if you analyse our forwards and their style of contribution, you can maybe see why he's not quite there yet:

    Defoe: Usually greedy
    Bale: Often greedy
    Lennon: Indecisive.

    Ironically, considering he seems to be his main rival for a place, Dempsey could be the player most likely to bring him on as he plays without ego and works hard, often making good decisions. And the ultimate addition of Ade would help similarly.
     
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  20. Mr Pink

    Mr Pink SC Supporter

    Messages:
    43,562
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    +56,272 / 800 / -266
    I think we have the ability to retain it alright, but I think we are lacking some intelligence in terms of in and around the box (VDV), or playing one of those visionary passes from deeper positions which Modric had in his locker - and affecting the game intelligently from those central positions.

    Our inability to produce in the final phase of our play if you like is a little worrying at the moment but overall I think we'll improve gradually. I think we'll be more solid away from home this season to but I agree we need to a acquire and intelligent ball player in the January window to compliment Dembele.
     

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