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4-2-3-1 The "En Vogue" formation

StartingPrice

Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
Feb 13, 2004
32,568
10,280
None of the player combinations in this formation offer enough goals. None of our midfielders have suggested that will score a significant number. None of our strikers can play the lone role effectively. Unless we're going to add some Robben/Pires like goal scoring wingers or Gerrard/Lampard type scoring CMs as well as a proper CF (not to mention shuffling the ones we already have) it doesn't seem like a good idea. I'd like us to try it in pre-season but I honestly don't think it's goiong to be a better option than our very successful 442.

Not enough goals...said it straight away...they just choose not to listen.

Not enough from the whole of the team to compensate for the loss of a striker...not unless it was just for the occasional game against truly World Class oppos. to nick a goal...not unless our defenders/midfielders step up to the plate more!
 

midoNdefoe

the member formerly and technically still known as
Mar 9, 2005
3,107
3,166
451 didnt work for ramos, not sure why harry would shoot himself in the foot and do the same?

Our strikers have been our only real source of goals in the last few seasons, so why would we half our threat...?

We have excelled with our 442 formation, a breath of fresh air amongst the murky euro451s of chelsea and arse in particular, playing attractive football and achieving!!!

Why the 451 bumlove peeps?
 

StartingPrice

Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
Feb 13, 2004
32,568
10,280
Better players, better communication from the manager, better team spirit and discipline:shrug:

Besides, I don't think 'Arry (or most folk on here) is advocating playing it in every single game, whereas it was Wandery's Plan A.
 

midoNdefoe

the member formerly and technically still known as
Mar 9, 2005
3,107
3,166
mostly the same players besides palacios though...

Never liked the idea of 451 for spurs in all honesty as i think we would need to sign a couple more wingers and lone striker types. As others have said our current players dont really fit in. Bale, Lennon, Bentley, Krancjar(sp?) nor Modric can play comfortably in the wing forward positions, not enough strikers instinct, and none of Defoe, Pav, Gud. or Crouch can successfully lead the line....

On another note, why is everyone leaving Defoe out of thier line ups? He is always hot before chistmas and he was joint top scorer for England this World Cup!!?
 

Dan Ashcroft

Manstack vs The Gay Chimney
Jan 6, 2008
6,404
1,147
451 didnt work for ramos, not sure why harry would shoot himself in the foot and do the same?

Our strikers have been our only real source of goals in the last few seasons, so why would we half our threat...?

We have excelled with our 442 formation, a breath of fresh air amongst the murky euro451s of chelsea and arse in particular, playing attractive football and achieving!!!

Why the 451 bumlove peeps?

Ramos was a 4-4-2 man. It was only ending up with no strikers that caused him to try a 4-5-1.

Even Redknapp has been talking up 4-5-1 all world cup. Its beauty is that you combine your #10 and LM into one player so you can accomodate two DMs without sacrificing your attacking play. Practically all the successful teams in world football play it and have done for quite a while.

mostly the same players besides palacios though...

Never liked the idea of 451 for spurs in all honesty as i think we would need to sign a couple more wingers and lone striker types. As others have said our current players dont really fit in. Bale, Lennon, Bentley, Krancjar(sp?) nor Modric can play comfortably in the wing forward positions, not enough strikers instinct, and none of Defoe, Pav, Gud. or Crouch can successfully lead the line....

On another note, why is everyone leaving Defoe out of thier line ups? He is always hot before chistmas and he was joint top scorer for England this World Cup!!?

Generous. He usually hits the wall in late October.
 

shelfstandspur

Thinking about procrastinating
Dec 13, 2006
67
133
I think that with the group of players we have a better option would be to 4-4-2 when defending and 3-5-2 when attacking. i.e Bale at LB. He has the engine to get forward when attacking to provide the width on the left freeing Modric to go more central. The idea being that Corluka will then come in to make a three at the back. This would allow us to play the Hudd and Palacios in the middle. So:
Defending;
Gomes
Corluka, Daws, King, Bale
Lennon, Palacios, Hudd, Modric
2 Strikers
Attacking;
Gomes
Corluka, Daws, King,
Lennon, Palacios, Hudd, Bale
Modric (free role)
2 Strikers
 

midoNdefoe

the member formerly and technically still known as
Mar 9, 2005
3,107
3,166
Ramos was a 4-4-2 man. It was only ending up with no strikers that caused him to try a 4-5-1.

Even Redknapp has been talking up 4-5-1 all world cup. Its beauty is that you combine your #10 and LM into one player so you can accomodate two DMs without sacrificing your attacking play. Practically all the successful teams in world football play it and have done for quite a while.



Generous. He usually hits the wall in late October.

We kind of get that already when Defoe drops out to the left, and Bale drops to double up with BAE.

I still feel a counter attacking 442 is our best formation, hard working hustle in defence and slick fast passing attacks.... with 2 forwards to finish them off.

matter of opinion though i suppose....
 

guiltyparty

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2005
9,023
13,524
On another note, why is everyone leaving Defoe out of thier line ups? He is always hot before chistmas and he was joint top scorer for England this World Cup!!?

Is that last bit a joke? Joint top scorer with one?!
 

StartingPrice

Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
Feb 13, 2004
32,568
10,280
mostly the same players besides palacios though...

Never liked the idea of 451 for spurs in all honesty as i think we would need to sign a couple more wingers and lone striker types. As others have said our current players dont really fit in. Bale, Lennon, Bentley, Krancjar(sp?) nor Modric can play comfortably in the wing forward positions, not enough strikers instinct, and none of Defoe, Pav, Gud. or Crouch can successfully lead the line....

On another note, why is everyone leaving Defoe out of thier line ups? He is always hot before chistmas and he was joint top scorer for England this World Cup!!?

Sorry to confuse, MND, I wasn't necessarily advocating 4-5-1, just seeking to show why it would have more chance of working than under Wandery.

My personal belief about Spurs and 4-5-1, as stated in other threads, is that we really don't have the goals from defence and midfield to compensate for losing a striker. And, as others have said, most of our players are more naturally suited to a 4-4-2, anyway.

But, and I have had a lengthy discussion with someone on here :)wink:) about this...it's mostly semantics. What I think we do have is the team to play 4-4-2, but with (providing he returns) Gudjohnsen (or someone similar) to link midfield and attack. Now, technically, he is a striker...so that would be a 4-4-2, and, as such, we could expect more goals from him than a midfielder. At the same time, he would be playing, in many ways, like a midfielder, so it would share aspects with a 4-5-1. Again, not for every game, just when up against the likes of Barca (in the CL final:grin:).
 

midoNdefoe

the member formerly and technically still known as
Mar 9, 2005
3,107
3,166
Sorry to confuse, MND, I wasn't necessarily advocating 4-5-1, just seeking to show why it would have more chance of working than under Wandery.

My personal belieef about Spurs and 4-5-1, as stated in other threads, is that we really don't have the goals from defence and midfield to compensate for losing a striker. And, as others have said, most of our players are more naturally suited to a 4-4-2,anyway.

But, and I have had a lengthy discussion with someone on here :)wink:) about this...it's most semantics. What I think we do have is the team to play 4-4-2, but with (providing he returns) Gudjohnsen (or someone similar) to link midfield and attack. Now, technically, he is a striker...so that would be a 4-4-2, and, as such, we could expect more goals from him than a midfielder. At the saem time, he would be playing, in many ways like a midfielder, so it would share aspects with a 4-5-1. Again, not for every game, just when up against the likes of Barca (in the CL final:grin:).

Totally agree. I think
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,183
48,814
Harry being pretty clear he wants to be able to play with more players in the middle of the park, particularly in Europe...

http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/content/ca...ory=sport&itemid=WeED07+Jul+2010+14:24:08:747

Joe Cole could be the key to Spurs' Champions League bid, says Harry

[email protected]
07 July 2010
By Ben Pearce

HARRY Redknapp believes that Joe Cole could be the key to Tottenham success in the Champions League as he considers new tactics to combat Europe's heavyweights.


The Spurs boss admits he has approached the England international, a free agent this summer after being released by Chelsea, about a move to White Hart Lane.

The Lilywhites face competition from Arsenal and now Liverpool, as new Reds boss Roy Hodgson tries to boost his 'home-grown' contingent with a limited budget, and Redknapp admits he is "not close" to signing the 28-year-old.

But, having observed some of the world's top teams at the World Cup this summer, the Tottenham manager feels that Cole could offer him a wealth of tactical options.

"I think you'd either play him in behind, like the boy [Mesut Ozil] plays for Germany - he could play that position off a striker and be free - or I even think he could play in the middle of the park in whatever system.

"If you play with two up front you could play with a diamond. He could play in behind. I think Joe's strong enough, he's a lot stronger than people realise. He can run all day, he plays with great enthusiasm and skill, I think he's got everything.

"I think there's a good chance [that we can sign him]. A few weeks ago I probably didn't think there was a lot of chance. I really felt that Joe maybe had decided to go somewhere else. To be honest I thought he had maybe done a deal with another club. "But I don't think he has now and if it's possible to get him I would like him. I'm not going to tell a lie, yes I have spoken to Joe. He's got lots of options, I think quite a lot of clubs want him but I had a great relationship with him as a kid [at West Ham]."

Redknapp's desire to sign Cole has confused a number of Spurs fans, who feel that the club already has a wealth of similar players, and supporters are questioning how the midfielder would fit into the 4-4-2 system that served the Lilywhites so well last season.

However, Redknapp is concerned that his favourite Premier League formation will leave his side vulnerable when they take on the world's top players in the Champions League.

The manager's fears were confirmed by England's demise in South Africa, and he admits that he is likely to drill his players in a more compact system during pre-season.

"I think that rigid 4-4-2 formation is the problem when you go in to play teams who can keep the ball," says Redknapp.

"When we (England) play 4-4-2 against better teams, they have the extra man in midfield. If they're comfortable on the ball you get outplayed and you get outnumbered. I felt we were too open in the way we wanted to play.

"There was a massive area in the middle of the park where we didn't get control of the ball. Look at the other sides. Take Germany - they played with Ozil in the hole behind the striker, two midfield players, and they popped it around. We couldn't get near them. Algeria outplayed us as well.

"I really felt we were naïve in the way we played, and I think the players felt the same way. I spoke to a few of the lads who were in the squad and they weren't really happy with the system. They always had that feeling that they were going to get outplayed and out-numbered in the middle of the park.

"Chelsea and Arsenal didn't go into Europe playing that way. Liverpool don't go away from home in Europe and play this way. We were playing a very open game that really wasn't suited to getting the results that we needed.

"I think you can get away with 4-4-2 in the Premier League. Most teams are playing open, but in the World Cup, in European games, and certainly away from home in Europe... I think we're going to have to look at it [at Tottenham].
 

Bobishism

*****istrator
Aug 23, 2004
15,035
126
Ramos was a 4-4-2 man. It was only ending up with no strikers that caused him to try a 4-5-1.

Even Redknapp has been talking up 4-5-1 all world cup. Its beauty is that you combine your #10 and LM into one player so you can accomodate two DMs without sacrificing your attacking play. Practically all the successful teams in world football play it and have done for quite a while.

What? You change your furthest midfielder into an auxillary striker. Just because Spain and Germany play strikers on the left, does not mean every 4-3-3 does. That's coincidental.
 

Bobishism

*****istrator
Aug 23, 2004
15,035
126
I can't recall seeing Kranjcar play that role tbh, so I can't say how good he would be there. But I have seen Giovani in the number 10 role and he looked very effective there.

When? Apart from one game in the Uefa cup, I can't recall him playing in that position.
 

Black

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2007
4,807
4,872
Gomes
Corluka Dawson King B.A.E
Huddlestone Modric
Lennon Kranjcar Bale
Pav/Crouch

:hump:
 

SpursMadJames

Super Pav
Apr 19, 2005
171
1
...................Gomes

Charlie ...... King ....... Woody .... Bale

................Palacios
Lennon ............. Ozil Modric

...........Defoe Fabiano
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
Playing with this formation really stopped Germany being overrun in midfield last night didn't it? How many midfielders did Spain play... 5? Nope, 4, hence why Spain saw none of the ball.
 

mil1lion

This is the place to be
May 7, 2004
42,728
78,668
Playing with this formation really stopped Germany being overrun in midfield last night didn't it? How many midfielders did Spain play... 5? Nope, 4, hence why Spain saw none of the ball.
If we could keep the ball anything like as well as Spain then we might pull it off. Although the 2 wide players in the 4-3-3 work hard and track back, so it really becomes 5 in midfield. It just so happens they're mostly in possession anyway, so the wide players don't need to track back so much.

The key for Spain however is that they do have 3 central midfielders. Alonso and Busquets can protect, and Xavi pulls the strings. So if you can get enough of the ball, then you can expose them down the wings.
 
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