A team made in Tottenham

[dontcallme]

Naturally it's about getting the right balance. But there are a lot of plusses to having a lot of young players in the club long term.

Feeling comfortable in your surroundings can make a big difference in your on-pitch performance. It's not just foreigners who struggle to adapt. Nick Barmby left because of homesickness.

We've seen the positives of players caring about the club and how good it feels as fans to have players like that representing your team.

The more youth players we have up to standard and performing the less reliant we are on the transfer market which both domestically and internationally is a big risk.

So while I don't want a squad full of local lads it would be great to see our club bring through more youth players.

 

[IGSpur]

Well argued. I stand corrected and do retract my first impression!

That's cool. I also felt it needed to be said as I remember a couple of people suggesting something similar in the youth threads, so I used this as an opportunity to clarify my, and I'm sure many others' position, as I would hate to give the impression foreign players weren't welcome.

 

[IGSpur]

Naturally it's about getting the right balance. But there are a lot of plusses to having a lot of young players in the club long term.

Feeling comfortable in your surroundings can make a big difference in your on-pitch performance. It's not just foreigners who struggle to adapt. Nick Barmby left because of homesickness.

We've seen the positives of players caring about the club and how good it feels as fans to have players like that representing your team.

The more youth players we have up to standard and performing the less reliant we are on the transfer market which both domestically and internationally is a big risk.

So while I don't want a squad full of local lads it would be great to see our club bring through more youth players.

Re: feeling comfortable in your surroundings. I'd like to highlight to points as I agree with it. Carroll being one. I think Carroll is a player who works off the players he knows, passers and creative players rely on knowing the movements and strenghts of their teammates. Carroll can do the whole retaining possession thing, spreading play and picking out the odd through ball which he did at Swansea and people think that's all he had to offer, but in the u21s he was dominating matches playing with players he knows as he knows their games. While people will say it's only Malaysia/Sydney I'm sure plenty of people saw a side of TC they didn't think he had showing his flicks and one touch play and his real creative side. I feel that is still what he has to offer and he even surprised me playing the no.10 role so well. I feel he has a lot to offer and should get his chance next season playing with players he knows.

The other thing is Winks would rarely have played with Carroll et al, yet linked up with all of them so well and slotted in seamlessly similar to Onomah in the first game. I think this is another example of the benefits of using academy players. The don't need to adapt, they know the system, they speak the language, they would have trained with each other for a long time and as we know the team is greater than the sum of it's parts. That is the other benefit of using them. It's a constant transition and conveyor belt of players ready to step in.

Also what does the bolded part mean.

The better your non-youngsters are, the more youngsters you can use. The worse your seniors are, the fewer youngster you can use.

What does this mean? This didn't happen this year. The worse our senior players were meant we played more and better youngsters. If our senior players performed as hoped the youngsters wouldn't have got their opportunity.

 

[carpediem991]

Experience is important, but this scenario in three years isnt out of the world:

----------------------------------------Keeper 1------------------------------------------- Keeper 2, McGee
-----Walker-Peters--------Dier------------------Carter-Vickers----------Rose------ Walker, Vejlkovic, Wimmer, Davies
---------------------Onomah-----------Bentaleb-------------Alli--------------------------- Mason, Carroll, Winks
---------------------Quality winger----Kane--------------Pritchard--------------------- Yahaya/ Azzaoui, Edwards, 2nd striker, winger

Why the heck not?

 

[longtimespur]

I can imagine in a few years time we will have a squad with 60% and more being academy graduates, great for the club.

 

[longtimespur]

Experience is important, but this scenario in three years isnt out of the world:

----------------------------------------Keeper 1------------------------------------------- Keeper 2, McGee
-----Walker-Peters--------Dier------------------Carter-Vickers----------Rose------ Walker, Vejlkovic, Wimmer, Davies
---------------------Onomah-----------Bentaleb-------------Alli--------------------------- Mason, Carroll, Winks
---------------------Quality winger----Kane--------------Pritchard--------------------- Yahaya/ Azzaoui, Edwards, 2nd striker, winger

Why the heck not?

Snap, similar thinking

 

[JimmyG2]

[QUOTE="IGSpur, post: 4618308, member: 24593"]Re: feeling comfortable in your surroundings. I'd like to highlight to points as I agree with it. Carroll being one. I think Carroll is a player who works off the players he knows, passers and creative players rely on knowing the movements and strenghts of their teammates. Carroll can do the whole retaining possession thing, spreading play and picking out the odd through ball which he did at Swansea and people think that's all he had to offer, but in the u21s he was dominating matches playing with players he knows as he knows their games. While people will say it's only Malaysia/Sydney I'm sure plenty of people saw a side of TC they didn't think he had showing his flicks and one touch play and his real creative side. I feel that is still what he has to offer and he even surprised me playing the no.10 role so well. I feel he has a lot to offer and should get his chance next season playing with players he knows.

The other thing is Winks would rarely have played with Carroll et al, yet linked up with all of them so well and slotted in seamlessly similar to Onomah in the first game. I think this is another example of the benefits of using academy players. The don't need to adapt, they know the system, they speak the language, they would have trained with each other for a long time and as we know the team is greater than the sum of it's parts. That is the other benefit of using them. It's a constant transition and conveyor belt of players ready to step in.

Also what does the bolded part mean.



What does this mean? This didn't happen this year. The worse our senior players were meant we played more and better youngsters. If our senior players performed as hoped the youngsters wouldn't have got their opportunity.[/QUOTE]


Clive Allen said exactly this in the commentary on the Sydney game.
Players come through a system which is consistent at every level.
They have no problem moving up.
Barcelona have stressed the merits of this conveyor belt system in the past..

The better your older experienced players are the fewer of them you need.
See the impact of Davids at the time. Inspirational.
I am not against this but he did become a true Spur in a very short time..
We need a sniper rifle approach not the blunderbuss of the recent bulk buys
none of whom had had Premiership or even English league experience,
(Not sure this metaphor works: New signings going straight to A&E
with gunshot wounds!)

 

[Khilari]

It's not pie in the sky. It is entirely possible with the correct system of selecting capable youth. It just needs a club to break the mould. In more sense than the literal.
You may always have a supplementary player as you say. Lloris etc, but 8 academy players? Plausible in my book.

Agree - but we need to be able to hold onto our best players that do come through and shine. That's been our problem of late. If any of these guys start showing themselves off to be above the rest, the inevitable "Sky4" will start sniffing around.

Saying that, however I think an academy player is much more likely to stay on at Spurs despite overtures from more wealthy clubs to help us become successful

 

[IGSpur]

Clive Allen said exactly this in the commentary on the Sydney game.
Players come through a system which is consistent at every level.
They have no problem moving up.
Barcelona have stressed the merits of this conveyor belt system in the past..

The better your older experienced players are the fewer of them you need.
See the impact of Davids at the time. Inspirational.
I am not against this but he did become a true Spur in a very short time..
We need a sniper rifle approach not the blunderbuss of the recent bulk buys
none of whom had had Premiership or even English league experience,
(Not sure this metaphor works: New signings going straight to A&E
with gunshot wounds!)

I missed him saying this but it makes perfect sense and it is how it should be. All the teams play a 433 or 4231 with pressing and so know what is expected of them. They will have similar foundations but still have their own individuals qualities.

If we don't get a top class CM as experience I would happily get that old head in again from wherever we can. Like a VDV or Davids.

 

[Shea]

The better your non-youngsters are, the more youngsters you can use. The worse your seniors are, the fewer youngster you can use.

Is it?

Harry Kane got his chance this year because Soldado and Ade had become useless

had those two non younsters been playing well he'd have been down the pecking order

Same goes for Mason and Bentaleb I imagine - they got their chance because the likes of Pauliho and Capoue were playing shit

So the fact our seniors were worse we were forced to play more of our stronger youngsters

If Soldado, Capoue and Paulinho had been playing well and cemented first team places I doubt Kane, Mason and Bentaleb would have a quarter of the appearances they do now

 

[TheHoddleWaddle]

Agree - but we need to be able to hold onto our best players that do come through and shine. That's been our problem of late. If any of these guys start showing themselves off to be above the rest, the inevitable "Sky4" will start sniffing around.

Saying that, however I think an academy player is much more likely to stay on at Spurs despite overtures from more wealthy clubs to help us become successful

Agree, so long as the board at THFC make sure that they still pay academy promotions whom have shown their capabilities appropriately. Loyalty only goes so far and it shouldn't be taken for granted. I'm not suggesting thats the case at Spurs, but it's something that should be considered. I.e. Bentaleb / Kane / Rose deserve the same pay as the 'magnificent 7', if they aren't.

 

[dontcallme]

Also what does the bolded part mean.

I mean that buying players is a risk.

Sigurdsson's performances Swansea should show he's up to standard for us but he didn't perform.

Soldado was a great goalscorer for many years but has failed to do it for us.

We can talk about their physicality, suitability for our team etc but in reality we don't really know why they didn't perform for us as their personal life, settling into London etc could also have played a part.

So the more youth players we have that we know can play results in us needing to buy less players.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Is it?

Harry Kane got his chance this year because Soldado and Ade had become useless

had those two non younsters been playing well he'd have been down the pecking order

Same goes for Mason and Bentaleb I imagine - they got their chance because the likes of Pauliho and Capoue were playing shit

So the fact our seniors were worse we were forced to play more of our stronger youngsters

If Soldado, Capoue and Paulinho had been playing well and cemented first team places I doubt Kane, Mason and Bentaleb would have a quarter of the appearances they do now

What does this mean? This didn't happen this year. The worse our senior players were meant we played more and better youngsters. If our senior players performed as hoped the youngsters wouldn't have got their opportunity.

Yes, yes, yes, but I'm not talking about applying hindsight. As you will see, you are in fact adding to my point, rather than contradicting it.
From the perspective of a head coach, not with hindsight but right there and then, using youngsters is a big risk. It CAN work out, but it can also be a liability, costing the team points. As we've seen during the last season. If the first 11 consists of really good senior players, that liability can be accounted for on pitch, and the head coach can with more certainty us the kids. If the first 11 has average senior players, already inclined to barely scrape by, adding youngsters to it can be a suicide. Managers with a poor first 11 will be less inclined to give a youngster a chance, unless he feels backed into a corner with slim to none options.
Ergo, you can't simply build a whole team of youngsters, you need the guys who can be there to save the team when those youngsters mess up. The better senior players in the squad, the easier is the chose of using a youngster, without circumstances forcing the choice.

 

[IGSpur]

I mean that buying players is a risk.

Sigurdsson's performances Swansea should show he's up to standard for us but he didn't perform.

Soldado was a great goalscorer for many years but has failed to do it for us.

We can talk about their physicality, suitability for our team etc but in reality we don't really know why they didn't perform for us as their personal life, settling into London etc could also have played a part.

So the more youth players we have that we know can play results in us needing to buy less players.

Thanks. Don't know why I didn't get that first time round.

Yes, yes, yes, but I'm not talking about applying hindsight. As you will see, you are in fact adding to my point, rather than contradicting it.
From the perspective of a head coach, not with hindsight but right there and then, using youngsters is a big risk. It CAN work out, but it can also be a liability, costing the team points. As we've seen during the last season. If the first 11 consists of really good senior players, that liability can be accounted for on pitch, and the head coach can with more certainty us the kids. If the first 11 has average senior players, already inclined to barely scrape by, adding youngsters to it can be a suicide. Managers with a poor first 11 will be less inclined to give a youngster a chance, unless he feels backed into a corner with slim to none options.
Ergo, you can't simply build a whole team of youngsters, you need the guys who can be there to save the team when those youngsters mess up. The better senior players in the squad, the easier is the chose of using a youngster, without circumstances forcing the choice.

Fair point. I guess though the senior players either need to be really good or really terrible in order for youngsters to get a chance, And it is those middle squad players that I am so against buying and what youre saying basically supports my transfer plan. We buy too many average players who aren't great but are average or terrible. The average ones do nothing signficant but like you say they do just enough to warrant being less of a risk than an academy player though they may not be better, We need less of these and more senior top ones who like you say have a bit more accountability and a stable base,

However, our own introduced young players can in future be the top experienced players that makes introducing young players even easier like Bentaleb, Mason and Kane when they get a bit more experience.

 

[JimmyG2]

Yes, yes, yes, but I'm not talking about applying hindsight. As you will see, you are in fact adding to my point, rather than contradicting it.
From the perspective of a head coach, not with hindsight but right there and then, using youngsters is a big risk. It CAN work out, but it can also be a liability, costing the team points. As we've seen during the last season. If the first 11 consists of really good senior players, that liability can be accounted for on pitch, and the head coach can with more certainty us the kids. If the first 11 has average senior players, already inclined to barely scrape by, adding youngsters to it can be a suicide. Managers with a poor first 11 will be less inclined to give a youngster a chance, unless he feels backed into a corner with slim to none options.
Ergo, you can't simply build a whole team of youngsters, you need the guys who can be there to save the team when those youngsters mess up. The better senior players in the squad, the easier is the chose of using a youngster, without circumstances forcing the choice.

However this season it has been the experienced players on big money
Kaboul,Soldado, Adebayor, add your own favourites
that have messed up and the youngsters that have saved the day.
Your assumption that it will likely be the other way round is unfounded (So far).
A committed experienced pro can make the difference obviously
and only JimmyG2 would be mad enough to chuck 11 youngsters on the field for the opening game.
But starting from where we are now
you could easily start the season with 6,7 of our boys
and as I indicated in my OS maybe Lloris, Vertonghen and Eriksen
and a bench packed with senior pros in case it goes belly up.
It's usually the other way round but we have the players to try this.
Kane Rose Mason, Bentaleb (and Andros) Premiership tested and not found wanting.
It will need some patience and suspension of our usual fan intolerance
for it to get off the ground.

 

[Larryjanta]

Love the OP - nice & thought provoking.

If this ever came to pass, the best young players would also be desperate to join our academy as well as they would know their path would not be blocked by foreign import so, if we decided to do it, within a few year, we could have the cream of British youth players which would help. It would also likely improve the England natiional team.

One questions - does Rose, Bentaleb etc. count? At what age do they count as foreign imports?

I suspect, however, the only way this works is if Premier league teams can enter B teams in the lower leagues. Can you imagine how much it would have helped our young players if they had all been playing league 2 football, together, as a team from the ages of 18 onwards.

 

[Dharmabum]

The most optimistic post ever?

In an ideal world we would have a team full of academy products, however the only bloke brazen enough to give it a go would be Sherwood.
It would most likely lead to relegation shortly followed by desertion.
Even if we have the best academy in Europe, it wouldn't end well. And we as fans would soon get tired of losing at the cost of a moral victory

If Spurs had the best academy in Europe - better than that of Barca and Ajax - I would take that over the present team in an instant (i.e. having players like Messi, Iniesta, Xavi,Puyol, Alba, Rijkaard, van Basten etc coming through).... but that's not very probable

 

[HotspurFC1950]

Agree - but we need to be able to hold onto our best players that do come through and shine. That's been our problem of late. If any of these guys start showing themselves off to be above the rest, the inevitable "Sky4" will start sniffing around.

Saying that, however I think an academy player is much more likely to stay on at Spurs despite overtures from more wealthy clubs to help us become successful

One reason though not the main reason for an academy developing young players is to sell on. An income.

 

[mill]

However this season it has been the experienced players on big money
Kaboul,Soldado, Adebayor, add your own favourites
that have messed up and the youngsters that have saved the day.
Your assumption that it will likely be the other way round is unfounded (So far).
A committed experienced pro can make the difference obviously
and only JimmyG2 would be mad enough to chuck 11 youngsters on the field for the opening game.
But starting from where we are now
you could easily start the season with 6,7 of our boys
and as I indicated in my OS maybe Lloris, Vertonghen and Eriksen
and a bench packed with senior pros in case it goes belly up.
It's usually the other way round but we have the players to try this.
Kane Rose Mason, Bentaleb (and Andros) Premiership tested and not found wanting.
It will need some patience and suspension of our usual fan intolerance
for it to get off the ground.

Thing is about the fans needing to be patient, we need to be patient whatever route we go, buying players isn't closing the gap on the teams above us, at least the youth route would give us more to be proud of and connect with rather than just swapping average players for average players when the transfer windows roll around

 

[Khilari]

One reason though not the main reason for an academy developing young players is to sell on. An income.

Absolutely - yes, all academies accept that not all output will end up as regular 1st team players at Spurs, but are still very good footballers and should go on to have good careers elsewhere, whether in lower divisions to start with or smaller EPL teams. This I think has been the Spurs objective for many years, with the training facilities and the really good youth coaching set up we have.

Perhaps not quite on par with Man Utd or Southampton's who seem to at present churn out brilliant young talent regularly, but certainly up there.