Archway sheet metal works on fire

[DaSpurs]

Maybe I'm wrong, but from my limited experience working in the insurance industry, this has fraud written all over it. I've seen the same scenario (although maybe not on this level) a million times before, and I wouldn't give these people the time of day.

Here is how it works:

1) Find a bullshit reason to inflate the value of your resource. (I.e. it may only be a £500k property but the big football team wants to buy it so it should be worth £500M).

2) Pull out before the insurance company have a reason to deflate the value of the resource you have insured and thus pay you less money (I.e. court case forcing you to sell to the big football club).

3) Burn the property and take the insurance money based upon your own valuation and strike it rich

Unfortunately (Sorry fortunately), this never works. Funnily enough, big insurance firms who hire lots of top notch lawyers do not generally fall into such easy traps. The insurance companies investigators will do a far more thorough job than the police as they have money on it.

Don't get me wrong, it may be a rogue Spurs fan, but this scenario fills the A-Z of insurance con jobs.

Good post, and thanks for your input.

But is there always this degree of conflict of interest associated with it? That's the key that provides more protection, especially as this case has garnered international attention due to the popularity of football itself. Unless the investigators can without doubt identify who the arson(s) was/were, and what their intentions were, the owners can rather easily dish this off on it being an aggressive fan of the club rather than themselves.

 

[prawnsandwich]

Maybe I'm wrong, but from my limited experience working in the insurance industry, this has fraud written all over it. I've seen the same scenario (although maybe not on this level) a million times before, and I wouldn't give these people the time of day.

Here is how it works:

1) Find a bullshit reason to inflate the value of your resource. (I.e. it may only be a £500k property but the big football team wants to buy it so it should be worth £500M).

2) Pull out before the insurance company have a reason to deflate the value of the resource you have insured and thus pay you less money (I.e. court case forcing you to sell to the big football club).

3) Burn the property and take the insurance money based upon your own valuation and strike it rich

Unfortunately (Sorry fortunately), this never works. Funnily enough, big insurance firms, who hire lots of top notch lawyers, do not generally fall into such easy traps. The insurance companies investigators will do a far more thorough job than the police as they have money on it. Any insurance investigator who looks into this will smell a rat a mile away.

Don't get me wrong, it may be a rogue Spurs fan, but this scenario fills the A-Z of insurance con jobs.

What I find interesting is that the Josifs made no comment to the media.

 

[eddiev14]

I heard the police brought @SpursManChris in for questioning several hours ago.

He's still asking them.

'Winner' isn't strong enough for this!!

 

[tiger666]

What I find interesting is that the Josifs made no comment to the media.

Bit foolish to until the old bill etc have investigated I would imagine.

 

[prawnsandwich]

Bit foolish to until the old bill etc have investigated I would imagine.

Yeah, but if you have done nothing wrong.......
If your house was burnt down-would you say " I am gutted-memories..etc"
Or "No comment"

 

[tiger666]

Yeah, but if you have done nothing wrong.......
If your house was burnt down-would you say " I am gutted-memories..etc"
Or "No comment"

I'd say "I don't give a fuck it's not my house"

 

[RichieS]

Oh my days

Indeed. Probably the best use of that picture I've ever seen. Bravo @Geyzer Soze !

 

[remember91]

Good post, and thanks for your input.

But is there always this degree of conflict of interest associated with it? That's the key that provides more protection, especially as this case has garnered international attention due to the popularity of football itself. Unless the investigators can without doubt identify who the arson(s) was/were, and what their intentions were, the owners can rather easily dish this off on it being an aggressive fan of the club rather than themselves.

It will probably all depend on the insurance companies records. Although most insurance companies are competitors, when fraud is suspected, they will all happily open up their records (one of those things that they are allowed to do due to itunes style smallprint). If the company in question has increased the value of their properties insurance, this will immediately cause suspicion.

Now I am not familiar with this companies account, but in my previous job I would be financially harmed through accepting such a claim, and my personal instincts would lead me to to do every kind of investigation I could do before I gave a single penny. We had some very capable investigators, and we were championship compared to this. The insurance people looking into this will be very, very good.

 

[DaSpurs]

, It will probably all depend on the insurance companies records. Although most insurance companies are competitors, when fraud is suspected, they will all happily open up their records (one of those things that they are allowed to do due to itunes style smallprint). If the company in question has increased the value of their properties insurance, this will immediately cause suspicion.

Now I am not familiar with this companies account, but in my previous job I would be financially harmed through accepting such a claim, and my personal instincts would lead me to to do every kind of investigation I could do before I gave a single penny. We had some very capable investigators, and we were championship compared to this. The insurance people looking into this will be very, very good.

I believe that they will be. But even then, I think it would take some serious work to be able to identify a specific culprit, and then drag out their specific intentions. Hell, if I were them and put someone up to it, it wouldn't take more than a lick of sense to get Spurs fans to do the business, as the investigators/police/courts may be happy just with that if they do find the culprit.

The point is, I think with this degree of profile of the conflict of interest, they ran into a perfect situation to do this if it was in their plan. This conflict literally holds international attention, and I don't think anyone would fault the investigators if they chalked it up to a Spurs fan and left it at that.

It's just all so vague. There is plenty of incentive for the owners to have done this given the timing, and there is plenty of incentive for a rash Spurs fan to have done it without coming full circle in his reasoning process. I don't doubt for a minute these investigators would prove arson to be the case, if it is the case; but proving specific intent is a whole 'nother ball game altogether.

 

[prawnsandwich]

I am just happy that we can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel. It's like the boil has been burst and we can wipe the puss off the mirror and crack on. Nobody loses. Fuck morality.

 

[DaSpurs]

I am just happy that we can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel. It's like the boil has been burst and we can wipe the puss off the mirror and crack on. Nobody loses. Fuck morality.

I guess that really depends on how long the investigation from all parties involved will take. If it's quick, no one was hurt, they prove arson, find nothing to identify a specific person, and the Jobros just take the insurance money and move on then yeah, you're absolutely spot on. But I have to admit that @remember91's points do concern me a bit, as they give a more concrete idea of the sheer quality of the people investigating this.

I was also not aware that these insurance companies give financial incentive to the investigators themselves. Certainly makes sense, but I had not been privy to that knowledge prior.

 

[remember91]

I believe that they will be. But even then, I think it would take some serious work to be able to identify a specific culprit, and then drag out their specific intentions. Hell, if I were them and put someone up to it, it wouldn't take more than a lick of sense to get Spurs fans to do the business, as the investigators/police/courts may be happy just with that if they do find the culprit.

The point is, I think with this degree of profile of the conflict of interest, they ran into a perfect situation to do this if it was in their plan. This conflict literally holds international attention, and I don't think anyone would fault the investigators if they chalked it up to a Spurs fan and left it at that.

It's just all so vague. There is plenty of incentive for the owners to have done this given the timing, and there is plenty of incentive for a rash Spurs fan to have done it without coming full circle in his reasoning process. I don't doubt for a minute these investigators would prove arson to be the case, if it is the case; but proving specific intent is a whole 'nother ball game altogether.

If the company claims on their insurance, that will be considered specific intent in the first place. After that, the onus will be on them to prove that it's arsene.

 

[prawnsandwich]

Arsene was fuming today.
Actually he was quite calm but that ruins the pun.

 

[DaSpurs]

If the company claims on their insurance, that will be considered specific intent in the first place.

I suppose that's very true.

But let's say you're an investigator in a similar case, let's say with Brighton & Hove before they built their shiny new home. Let's say they were also in a bit of a pickle with a lone business owner/party being the single entity blocking their new site expansion. Let's also say that the negotiations between the two parties had dragged on over several years, and was now being taken to court. This final CPO date was set to be held in two months time, and the situation did not look good for the business owner's intent to "stay."

If you had managed to prove arson, and consecutively who the arson himself was, and furthermore that he was a B&H fan, would you be content with that?

I know it's difficult to isolate considering your own interest in this situation do to being Spurs, but I think the financial incentive you cite more than provides enough of a countering interest such that we can rule out fan bias.

 

[remember91]

I guess that really depends on how long the investigation from all parties involved will take. If it's quick, no one was hurt, they prove arson, find nothing to identify a specific person, and the Jobros just take the insurance money and move on then yeah, you're absolutely spot on. But I have to admit that @remember91's points do concern me a bit, as they give a more concrete idea of the sheer quality of the people investigating this.

I was also not aware that these insurance companies give financial incentive to the investigators themselves. Certainly makes sense, but I had not been privy to that knowledge prior.

Insurance investigators work on a target based commission scheme. The more claims they deny, the higher they get paid. The bigger the case, the more they get paid. If they smell a rat (and if I can smell a rat, they will), they will pull out all the stops to investigate the case. If this company are claiming for the amount they were trying to get off of the club, the investigators(who are usually ex cops) will bring in all the talent they need (usually more ex cops), to get their bonus.

I will re-iterate again, I only briefly worked in insurance and certainly not on this level. But from my experience, when places burn before a law case is about to go against them, the top insurance people usually take over. If it looks suspicious to me, you can imagine how it looks to the real vet guys...

 

[danielneeds]

Maybe I'm wrong, but from my limited experience working in the insurance industry, this has fraud written all over it. I've seen the same scenario (although maybe not on this level) a million times before, and I wouldn't give these people the time of day.

Here is how it works:

1) Find a bullshit reason to inflate the value of your resource. (I.e. it may only be a £500k property but the big football team wants to buy it so it should be worth £500M).

2) Pull out before the insurance company have a reason to deflate the value of the resource you have insured and thus pay you less money (I.e. court case forcing you to sell to the big football club).

3) Burn the property and take the insurance money based upon your own valuation and strike it rich

Unfortunately (Sorry fortunately), this never works. Funnily enough, big insurance firms, who hire lots of top notch lawyers, do not generally fall into such easy traps. The insurance companies investigators will do a far more thorough job than the police as they have money on it. Any insurance investigator who looks into this will smell a rat a mile away.

Don't get me wrong, it may be a rogue Spurs fan, but this scenario fills the A-Z of insurance con jobs.

Are you sure you worked in the insurance industry? I think all this knowledge really just came from old EastEnders eps, "I'm gonna torch the car-lot Pat."

 

[DaSpurs]

Insurance investigators work on a target based commission scheme. The more claims they deny, the higher they get paid. The bigger the case, the more they get paid. If they smell a rat (and if I can smell a rat, they will), they will pull out all the stops to investigate the case. If this company are claiming for the amount they were trying to get off of the club, the investigators(who are usually ex cops) will bring in all the talent they need (usually more ex cops), to get their bonus.

I will re-iterate again, I only briefly worked in insurance and certainly not on this level. But from my experience, when places burn before a law case is about to go against them, the top insurance people usually take over. If it looks suspicious to me, you can imagine how it looks to the real vet guys...

Good stuff. Again, your input is much appreciated on this.

 

[Wellspurs]

One of the fireman attending the fire whos a spurs fan....

I'm joking of course. I don't really do serious posts.

Is that petrol they're spraying on there?

 

[Wellspurs]

It wont be, it will be a crazy fan, but I dont see how that reflects badly on the Club, every team has nutter's supporting them.

It's not him this time but Charles Bronson is a yid.

 

[remember91]

I suppose that's very true.

But let's say you're an investigator in a similar case, let's say with Brighton & Hove before they built their shiny new home. Let's say they were also in a bit of a pickle with a lone business owner/party being the single entity blocking their new site expansion. Let's also say that the negotiations between the two parties had dragged on over several years, and was now being taken to court. This final CPO date was set to be held in two months time, and the situation did not look good for the business owner's intent to "stay."

If you had managed to prove arson, and consecutively who the arson himself was, and furthermore that he was a B&H fan, would you be content with that?

I know it's difficult to isolate considering your own interest in this situation do to being Spurs, but I think the financial incentive you cite more than provides enough of a countering interest such that we can rule out fan bias.

The incentive for the company in question is to get an above market value for a property they own (£100,000's at least). The incentive for a random Spurs fan, is to be popular down the pub, before he goes to prison. The first rule is... Follow the money. He who has most to gain has most to win. Now I do not know the details of this account or case in question, but if this was one of my old accounts, the first thing I would be doing is looking into the claimant. I am not claiming to have ITK knowledge of the situation, but I would have turned every stone before I gave a penny of compensation as this stinks to me.