AVB's 4-3-3 w/ Spurs: Tactical & Player Analysis & Discussion

[Chezaspur]

"Sorry new member but who was IOMLS? "



Great post LukeBB, IOMLS or Inoffmyleftshin also does ( or did ) tactical analysis.

 

[Scott Spur]

Whilst I agree that the new formation will aid our attacking play, I still have a niggling doubt as to our lack of 'creative' midfielder since Modric left.

Last season that was abundantly clear, the strikers goals dried up (combination of form and service, vicious circle IMO) and we became more and more reliant on Bale. Whilst Bale was a revelation, the style of play we adopted to accomodate him did hamper our other MF players and indeed the strikers.

Will be interesting to see how this changes (if he stays), I am hoping we have more balance now and therefore are less predictable. No matter how potent a threat Bale is, I would hate to see other players not reach their potential and be cast off because we just give the ball to the fast kid all the time....

 

[Kingstheman]

Unfortunately I doubt we'll ever solve the set piece paradox

Alas, I would have to agree.

 

[wosH]

Very interesting read indeed - may I ask what your background is?

 

[Mullers]

Interesting that you say occasionally Chadli because for Belguim he is ahead of Dembele for that role, he has been brilliant at playing smart balls to Benteke and the in cutting wingers of De Bruyne, Hazards and Martens. He has been playing that role for the last 18 months and the fact he played in the middle on saturday makes me think he may play there for us more often than people think

I don't think Dembele will be an automatic starter necessarily, don't get me wrong I think he's a good player but I think his dribbling is being found out by teams, hip injury or not, Paulinho will be a starter because he can do everything Dembele can do plus score goals, so you have Chadil,(going by what you say) Sig, Holtby, Caroll that can offer more guile and creativity than Dembele.

 

[LukeBB]

Some people seem to think that 4-3-3 is a certainty. Firstly let me say that there are many more learned people than I when it comes to player info and specific info on strategy and tactics, Having said that, I think we can all agree that no one can say with any certainty (even you Snarf you fucking freak) how we will shape up next season

One question i've often deliberated over is the differences and similarities between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3. My understanding is that those formations have more in common with each other than they have differeneces. My take on these 2 different formations is that in a 4-2-3-1 you can have a natural number 10, playing behind Buffalo soldier, but in a 4-3-3 the more advanced player in the MF 3 I would imagine would be encouraged to get forward and join the attack nit st the same time he would be expected to pixk the ball up and drop back deeper.

I agree regarding how we cannot be sure how AVB will line us up next season but I'm sure he'll probably use the 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 to counter specific teams etc.

With regards to the different formations, the positioning of players may be similar but a lot of the difference comes from the movement of the players and their roles. In the 4-2-3-1, two holding mids are deployed to close down the space between the midfield and the defense, so naturally it's a lot more defensive (i.e I wouldn't be surprised if we used the 4-2-3-1 against Chelsea because then we can drop Sandro and either Paulinho/ Dembele back further to help protect the defense against that midfield 3 of Mata, Oscar and Hazard) Also in the 4-2-3-1 the FBs aren't as relied upon to pose an attacking threat, more just there to help form triangles. The wingers as well don't play as inside forwards, they still provide the width, that's why in the 4-2-3-1 we still deployed Lennon on the right and Bale on the left for the first half of the season, before Bale went central. Any support for the striker also comes from the No10 rather than the wingers. So as you can see the 4-2-3-1 is generally a more defensive formation.

Whereas in the 4-3-3 only one holding midfielder is used so now you, in theory have one extra player in attack. The FBs are relied upon to provide all the width as well as crosses from the by-line via overlapping runs, this is because in this formation the wingers are encouraged to drift into the box (this is why we are probably looking at Coentrao because of his attacking threat and Portuguese link-up with AVB, I believe) . The more advanced CM is a tricky one for me to discuss because AVB has used this player in different ways. At Porto and at Chelsea, AVB used the box-to-box midfielder further up the pitch, the idea being when the RW drifted inside the CM would also drift wider to almost form a 4-2-4 when on the attack. However in pre-season AVB has used Tommy Carroll and mainly Sig as the more advanced CM who are more of a playmaker and they didn't make this movement (although this could be done to the lack of midfielders we had available for pre-season). Having said that, in a midfield 3 of Paulinho, Sandro and Dembele, we may see Dembele acting as more of the box-to-box midfielder being the more advanced CM running into the channels in the attack and Paulinho will play slightly deeper taking on more of a playmaker role, idk we'll have to see how the team plays against Espanyol and in the season. The front 3 also play a lot narrower almost playing like 3 strikers! The wingers cut inside and move into the box to support the striker, outnumber the CBs and provide a bigger goal threat etc Also since we sacrifice a holding midfielder so we can use another CM in a more attacking role the striker doesn't need to get involved in the build up play as much and his only duty is to hassle the CBs, occupy their attention and pose a goal threat from inside the box! So generally the movement of players in the 4-3-3 is more attacking and unorthodox than how players move in the 4-2-3-1

Hope this makes sense

 

[LukeBB]

Very interesting read indeed - may I ask what your background is?

just general 16 year old lad who enjoys watching and studying football

 

[LukeBB]

I will also just say here that I doubt Tommy Carroll is going out on loan, as it's not a problem about getting game time anymore. AVB has said that he wants Spurs to run their club similar as to how Barcelona run their club, to be similar on everything from how they run their youth academy, how they approach the transfer market etc Barcelona rarely loan out their youth players, this is because at Barca's youth academy's they can really get hands on with their players ( ) and teach them the Barca way of football, tiki-taka. They rarely loan them out because they see it might be detrimental to their careers at Barca, so little other clubs play to the extreme level of tiki-taka as Barca do so learning another way of football at another club, whether it means game time or not, may leave them in a worse shape coming back to Barca and leaving them further away from the first team.

I'm starting to think AVB might be feeling the same with youngster like Carroll, Ceballos, Bentaleb, (maybe) Kane etc It's rare to see any other team in England play the 4-3-3 AVB uses as well as their are little other coaches who have AVB's tactical knowledge that are willing to take our players out on loan (those coaches being Mourinho, Rodgers, Wegner etc) Since last season, our youth teams have played in a 4-3-3, they've also enjoyed our new world class training facilities, so maybe AVB sees it as not a bad thing that some youngster aren't getting as much playing time as they would if they went out on loan to a Championship or League 1 team. He probably suggests in order for our youngsters to have more of a chance at reaching the first team, he suggests they stay at Spurs, learn the formation and tactic in the u21 leagues, train at oyr world class facilities where AVB can see them and work with them day to day etc

As we've seen our guys are never promised week in week out football out on loan and bad loans might take a whole half a season away from their development, or it can work wonders and they could kill it in the championship etc

What do you guys think, should we loan youngsters like Carroll and Ceballos or let them develop in the u21 leagues?

 

[LukeBB]

How about Townsend?

Him in a 4-3-3 counter attacking role would be devastating IMO.

I don't think there's any need to spend £30m on another player when we have potential like Townsend here.

where would you play Townsend?

 

[Shadydan]

where would you play Townsend?

Either on the right or the left, he has a goal threat on both sides.

Wouldn't necessarily be a starter for me though.

 

[NEVILLEB]

Bale and Lennon only really started performing when we shifted formation last season.

Not sure they are suited to a 4-3-3 as there's less width

 

[Kingstheman]

just general 16 year old lad who enjoys watching and studying football

Shhhhhh.

Say you are 18.

It'll protect you from Wenger.

 

[JimmyG2]

I'm starting up a petition to get LukeBB as assistant to AVB with a view to taking over at Spurs
when LukeBB leaves school.
16 my arse. You're a 40 yr old graduate troll from Zonal Marking and I'm onto you.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

So much for the 433 eh ?

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

Which Castillo?

Nicolas Castillo, Chilean U20 international.

 

[LukeBB]

So much for the 433 eh ?

Yeah, I'll admit I thought we would play 4-3-3 against Espanyol, I would be surprised if we didn't use 4-3-3 this season though, AVB already has a balancing act on him making a midfield trio out of Capoue, Sandro, Dembele, Paulinho, Holtby, Sig, Carroll, Huddlestone (I don't see him going, even if AVB wants him to go or not) etc But I just can't see him using 2 holding midfielders and balancing that out between Capoue, Sandro, Dembele & Paulinho! I may be wrong but I guess like at points last season we will be using the 4-3-3!

 

[Kyle Broflovski]

I thought the fullbacks were a little weak.

 

[LukeBB]

I thought the fullbacks were a little weak.

I missed the first half of the game (personal reasons) but in the second half they didn't have too much on an influence in the game, I heard Danny Rose was poor, from what I saw he wasn't at his best, his execution in the final third was off and he got too caught up with this little scuffle with the Espanyol winger. I personally thought Walker was ok, his direct running and charges through the centre was pleasing to see and he never made a defensive error It was also interesting to see him deployed in a flat defensive 3 man midfield in the final minutes of the game when Kevin Stewart came on!

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I thought the fullbacks were a little weak.

They are very similar. Both are competitive, full of enthusiasm and willingness to get involved, all good qualities, but neither are very bright and make poor or no choices quite a lot of the time defensively and offensively. Both players got caught dithering in defence and neither demonstrate enough composure when the arrive at really good forward positions.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I missed the first half of the game (personal reasons) but in the second half they didn't have too much on an influence in the game, I heard Danny Rose was poor, from what I saw he wasn't at his best, his execution in the final third was off and he got too caught up with this little scuffle with the Espanyol winger. I personally thought Walker was ok, his direct running and charges through the centre was pleasing to see and he never made a defensive error It was also interesting to see him deployed in a flat defensive 3 man midfield in the final minutes of the game when Kevin Stewart came on!

He did make a bad defensive error and misjudged a ball and the Espanyol player got behind him into the box but Walker brought him down.

It's great direct running, but pointless if your brain goes blank when you arrive.

I honestly have no idea what that final sub achieved. Or why Hudd is still being used instead of the far more adroit Carroll.