AVBwatch

[ralvy]

1. Do you enjoy pain?
2. I assume this statement means that you enjoyed watching Bale play...?

1. Sometimes, but AVB's football was rarely a source of pain to me.

2. Your assumption is incorrect. We played some proper entertaining matches under AVB that weren't Bale dependent (like that 2-2 match at the Bridge, both reading games, 3-0 Inter, 0-1 Newcastle, 2-1 Arsenal, 3-1 City etc.). So, no, it wasn't all due to Bale.

 

[etchedchaos]

we gained nothing by sacking him when we did. Simple.

It caused a series of events that got Dim and Sir Les out of the club, that's a positive every day of the week for me.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

The three people we know he alienated were Freund, Sherwood & Adebayor. Not so much everyone, more every bellend wouldn't you say ?

Baldini? I'm talking rumours here, not just what you fanboys want to believe. Did wonder how long it would take you to comment.

This is a fictional thread with some of the things being said, no harm in adding more fuel.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

It caused a series of events that got Dim and Sir Les out of the club, that's a positive every day of the week for me.

That's the way I look at it too, in 6 months we got rid of 3 wankers, I don't lump Ramsey in with that as he was well respected and I think fired by association.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

1. Sometimes, but AVB's football was rarely a source of pain to me.

2. Your assumption is incorrect. We played some proper entertaining matches under AVB that weren't Bale dependent (like that 2-2 match at the Bridge, both reading games, 3-0 Inter, 0-1 Newcastle, 2-1 Arsenal, 3-1 City etc.). So, no, it wasn't all due to Bale.

Bale scored in the City game (he won it for us), the Arsenal game and the Inter game. You're struggling.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Baldini? I'm talking rumours here, not just what you fanboys want to believe. Did wonder how long it would take you to comment.

This is a fictional thread with some of the things being said, no harm in adding more fuel.

Ahh...sorry mr Bear Rumsfold, didn't realise you were talking unknown unknowns, I thought we were just talking known unknowns.

 

[Coyboy]

I prefer to believe the rumours that he had alienated everyone at the club, there's as much in them as there is this whole mutual consent thing. It's widely reported by news/radio/TV that he was sacked. If he wasn't, I would imagine him or his legal side would be keen to correct it. But nobody ever does.

Not if they agreed to keep things confidential.

 

[Shadydan]

Jesus! here we go again.



Okay,

- first: I actually have criticized AVB a fair amount of times, you saying I can't accept any criticism against him tells me you're completely talking out of your ass.

- Second: Am I really being paranoid? Just go and read back the last couple of pages to see how many responses my little comment celebrating AVB's last victory aroused from you guys? One of you even suggested me to leave the forum! Some of you guys are just plain sick, you clearly have it against AVB so hard,

BTW, I know Sloth was probably only joking, but it helps my case pointing that out, so Im gonna use it.

Fair enough if you've criticised him, I don't normally read your posts (only the posts in here) and it looks like you're adopting a siege mentality unable to accept constructive criticism because there has been some on here which you've ignored.

Who are "you guys"? why have you adopted an 'us and them' mentality in here? I'm not here to downplay AVB's achievements or his ability as manager, in fact I was ecstatic when we hired him because I thought he was going to be very good for Tottenham but I'll call it how I see it an if I think a player/manager is doing well for my club I'll praise, likewise if they're messing up I'll criticise.

I haven't said anything about his latest victory with Zenit, I mean I wish him well but honestly couldn't give two fucks what happens at Zenit, I only really care about Spurs and I don't wildly obsess or join the unfairly sacked/shouldn't have been sold fan club with players/managers who have left Tottenham, sorry to disappoint you.

So as much as you think I'm talking out of my ass when it comes to judging you, you ought to look at yourself first.

Wrong! Fans don't pay money to be entertained, they pay it to watch some live football and to support the team they supposedly love from the stands. There's never a guarantee the game will be pretty. If they think they're entitled to watch a pretty game then clearly they don't understand what being a fan is all about.

Moaning is only ever right when its clear those guys in the field are not even trying, if that's not the case then either support the team or shut the fuck up, or do something else but moaning.

Are you absolutely frigging mental, do you actually believe what you're writing?

Take this away from football to actually realise how stupid your argument sounds for a second...

People don't pay money to be entertained do they? Football like any other form of sports entertainment is a getaway from the norm, you pay your money to be entertained. What do you think people who go to cinema's/theater's/shows etc.. for? If you pay money to go and watch a film and it's absolute dog shit do you clap at the end, do you say to yourself that it was money well spent, do you give it a good review?, of course you don't. You moan, you criticise because it's not up to standard.

It's a natural human instinct to moan, if your team is playing dour football and are boring you vent, how the hell do you expect people not to get frustrated? If you actually expect people to enjoy what they're watching then you're very detached from reality and you fail to understand how the human psyche works, can't believe I'm having to actually explain this to you - it's really basic stuff.

And again, you need to learn to watch other games if you think it's an exclusive Spurs fan thing, it's not. Look around Europe and you'll see that fans moan if the team it's entertaining them. Of course you'll get some people who will be more tolerant than others but by and large people will start to vent their frustrations through different means.

Learn to construct an argument first, and then we may be able to have a more civilized debate next time. Care to tell me why my defense of the man is bordering on embarrassing and obsessional? Do you actually have a reason to come to this conclusion or you simply don't like the fact that I keep telling positive things about AVB? This is a serious question, I want to know just whats so wrong about me keep showing my support for one of the guys which very recently was coach of the team I love. Please enlighten me.

Read your posts, you're getting overly defensive just because some people dare to point out that they don't agree with your assessment and highlight his errors.

As I said before I don't have anything negative to say about AVB the person, I don't have a problem with him however I will point out his flaws which were evident when he was with us, I think that's fair enough.

You had no real argument there, the rest of your paragraph had nothing to do with your opening point. So you were lucky enough to attend two home games last season, I only wish I could be lucky enough to be in your situation, but Im not, I live an Ocean away and so far Im stuck in a country I've hated since I've had memory. Thanks for reminding me that... jackass!

Talking about having no real arguments, jackass? riiiight, whatever makes you feel better

So you say there weren't clear signs of progress and later admit he had in fact changed it up after the City game? That change you're talking about, that's what they call progress, don't you know?

BTW, I do agree with you we went back our old ways against Liverpool (and I was in fact pissed off with AVB at the time, I actually called him a coward during that game, as he clearly didn't had the balls to give 'Pool a proper battle that night), but that was just one game! And against a team which was showing great offensive form. How do you know what we saw the games before that one wasn't the true direction we were actually heading into and that Liverpool game wasn't simply a blip? That's why I say the sacking was stupid, and that we should have given him the rest of the season, as prior to that game there had been clear signs of progress.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? He changed it around for the Sunderland, Utd and Fulham games but went back to the same tactics against Liverpool, this isn't called progress, this is called stubbornness someone who isn't willing to change from a philosophy which wasn't working and our players were struggling to adapt to.

How is this for clear progress:

Bringing Adebayor back for the City game and dropping him again, having no intention of playing him after that despite only scoring 12 goals for the end of November.

Sending Benny out on loan leaving us with one Rose, plays Rose in a dead rubber Europa and ends up getting injured. Means we have to play Jan at LB - a position he said himself he's not comfortable and Naughton. What's more that his philosophy hinges on the width coming from the full backs. Go and re-watch the West Ham (0-3) clusterfuck for reference.

Mis-management of Lamela, killing his confidence, the Ade situation and refusing to play him, not acting quickly enough by bring on Sandro against Chelsea, Holtby against Arsenal. At no point did he play Eriksen, Soldado and Lamela in the same team last season either.

The Lloris situation and calling out the medical staff and alienating himself from the back room staff (where have we heard that before)

We were in fact actually going backwards, the football was getting progressively worse, the players looked really confused as to what their roles on the pitch were, there was no pressing in unison withthe high line which was was leaving us exposed again and again, Soldado was getting no support, the inverted winger system wasn't working either, the constant chopping and changing of teams, I don't think AVB knew what his best team was which can and had led to indecision, just looked like a complete mess from where I was sitting - Generally when your players are giving up which Lloris actually admitted to then they're not buying into the philosophy and not believing in the manager's vision, please explain how this is progress?

Don't know about you but I just see mistake after mistake after mistake, look everyone makes mistakes but the best learn from their errors and sadly it didn't look like he was and bearing in mind he made similar errors at Chelsea (a job he was sacked from before he came to us incidentally in case you're unaware)

If you were happy with the football being played and the direction the club was going in then good for you, hope you get your dream career of watching pain dry and building cardboard boxes for a living, some of us including the chairman weren't happy with what we were watching and thankfully he's not at the club anymore, good manager, wrong fit, wish him all the best at Zenit and I think he'll do well but thank fuck he's out of Spurs.

Progress - look it up.

 

[ralvy]

Bale scored in the City game (he won it for us), the Arsenal game and the Inter game. You're struggling.

So? That doesn't mean he was the main source of entertainment from those games. Do you even pay attention to what you're answering to?

 

[ralvy]

Fair enough if you've criticised him, I don't normally read your posts (only the posts in here) and it looks like you're adopting a siege mentality unable to accept constructive criticism because there has been some on here which you've ignored.

Criticism to me or to AVB? If its to me, I guess I just haven't noticed any of it. If its directed to AVB, then why the fuck should I be the one answering it?

I have said in the past I agree with those who say he mismanaged Lamela (he should have been an insta starter, playing Townsend instead of him at the begining of the season is simply ridiculous), and, in fact, I have actually criticized him myself in ways I haven't seen other users do (I felt, on his first season, he took the easy way out by giving Bale so much responsibility instead of focusing more on developing our delivery as a team, though I can't argue with the results it brought).

But I don't see why I need to state how much I agree or disagree with some of the criticism he's given when people aren't exactly asking me about it.

Who are "you guys"? why have you adopted an 'us and them' mentality in here? I'm not here to downplay AVB's achievements or his ability as manager, in fact I was ecstatic when we hired him because I thought he was going to be very good for Tottenham but I'll call it how I see it an if I think a player/manager is doing well for my club I'll praise, likewise if they're messing up I'll criticise.

With you guys, I mean those of you who just can't let anyone say anything positive about AVB without feeling like you just have to prove such positivity wrong, something which actually can't be done, and so we end up getting stuck into these endless debates that usually lead nowhere. There's always one of you (at the very least) willing to do the job.

I haven't said anything about his latest victory with Zenit, I mean I wish him well but honestly couldn't give two fucks what happens at Zenit, I only really care about Spurs and I don't wildly obsess or join the unfairly sacked/shouldn't have been sold fan club with players/managers who have left Tottenham, sorry to disappoint you.

So as much as you think I'm talking out of my ass when it comes to judging you, you ought to look at yourself first.

Yeah, but the real question is: why you care so much if I belong to such fan club? Why is that so embarrassing or obsessive?

BTW, the reason I care so much with AVB is not because I feel we were unfair with him, but really unfair. And not just the club, but also the fans and, specially, the media. And also because I feel sacking him at the time we did ended up costing more to us than to him.

Are you absolutely frigging mental, do you actually believe what you're writing?

Take this away from football to actually realise how stupid your argument sounds for a second...

People don't pay money to be entertained do they? Football like any other form of sports entertainment is a getaway from the norm, you pay your money to be entertained. What do you think people who go to cinema's/theater's/shows etc.. for? If you pay money to go and watch a film and it's absolute dog shit do you clap at the end, do you say to yourself that it was money well spent, do you give it a good review?, of course you don't. You moan, you criticise because it's not up to standard.

It's a natural human instinct to moan, if your team is playing dour football and are boring you vent, how the hell do you expect people not to get frustrated? If you actually expect people to enjoy what they're watching then you're very detached from reality and you fail to understand how the human psyche works, can't believe I'm having to actually explain this to you - it's really basic stuff.

There's one tiny difference however: if a movie is shit, there's nothing the audience can do, but if a team is playing shit, moaning and booing your team will only make things worse.

But you're right, some people do go to the stadium to be entertained. Real fans, however, well, they go to the stadium to support their team, not to bitch and moan if their team isn't rolling over the opposition by the 25 minutes mark.

And again, you need to learn to watch other games if you think it's an exclusive Spurs fan thing, it's not. Look around Europe and you'll see that fans moan if the team it's entertaining them. Of course you'll get some people who will be more tolerant than others but by and large people will start to vent their frustrations through different means.

Bitch please! You clearly don't know who you're talking here. On top of being a Spurs fan, Im also a Deportivo La Coruña fan, a team that's been jumping up and down in divisions for the past 5 years, and trust me, not even Depor fans bitch as much as Tottenham fans at the stadium, and this is a team that's been playing a really boring football for about 10 years now.

Read your posts, you're getting overly defensive just because some people dare to point out that they don't agree with your assessment and highlight his errors.

Oh sure, the classic "read your posts" defense, usually used when lacking an actual defense. How disappointing for you, I put you on the spotlight by asking you a direct question and you were unable to come up with anything better than that.

When did I got overly defensive, lets see it. Im putting you on the spotlight once again, lets see if this time you can actually back up your attacks.

Talking about having no real arguments, jackass? riiiight, whatever makes you feel better

So you didn't noticed it how I was just trying being funny with that whole paragraph? I don't really think you're a jackass... jackass!

Are you being deliberately obtuse? He changed it around for the Sunderland, Utd and Fulham games but went back to the same tactics against Liverpool, this isn't called progress, this is called stubbornness someone who isn't willing to change from a philosophy which wasn't working and our players were struggling to adapt to.

Okay, Im going to explain it to you very slowly, as you seem to lack some understanding skills:

1. Change in a positive direction is a sign of progress, specially if sustained.

2. You yourself already admitted we were showing sustained positive change prior that game against Liverpool.

3. Therefor, we can conclude we were showing signs of progress prior to that Liverpool game.

Now I ask you this, is one bad performance enough to erase all the progress we were making prior to such game? Couldn't it have been just one bad day in the office (whether it was from AVB, the players or both)?

How is this for clear progress:

Bringing Adebayor back for the City game and dropping him again, having no intention of playing him after that despite only scoring 12 goals for the end of November.

As you have admitted yourslef, we were showing signs of progress without having included Ade? So what makes you think he was essential for any progress we could have achieved under AVB?

Sending Benny out on loan leaving us with one Rose, plays Rose in a dead rubber Europa and ends up getting injured. Means we have to play Jan at LB - a position he said himself he's not comfortable and Naughton. What's more that his philosophy hinges on the width coming from the full backs. Go and re-watch the West Ham (0-3) clusterfuck for reference.

Weren't we discussing progress being made while the season was on and the market had already closed? Why are you bringing up mistakes being committed way before that? Are you also going to ask me about why he didn't started Hugo right away or why we didn't bought Leandro?

Mis-management of Lamela, killing his confidence, the Ade situation and refusing to play him, not acting quickly enough by bring on Sandro against Chelsea, Holtby against Arsenal. At no point did he play Eriksen, Soldado and Lamela in the same team last season either.

Dude, please, learn how to argue. If you want to prove me no progress was being done, then please, for the love of God, give me examples that showed how we were regressing instead or simply stalling. Bringing up isolated mistakes he may have committed has nothing to do with progress being achieved or not.

The Lloris situation and calling out the medical staff and alienating himself from the back room staff (where have we heard that before)

What's your point? That he wasn't well educated with head injuries? What the fuck does this has to do with no progress being achieved?

We were in fact actually going backwards, the football was getting progressively worse, the players looked really confused as to what their roles on the pitch were, there was no pressing in unison withthe high line which was was leaving us exposed again and again, Soldado was getting no support, the inverted winger system wasn't working either, the constant chopping and changing of teams, I don't think AVB knew what his best team was which can and had led to indecision, just looked like a complete mess from where I was sitting - Generally when your players are giving up which Lloris actually admitted to then they're not buying into the philosophy and not believing in the manager's vision, please explain how this is progress?

Finally! Now you return to the actual point that was being discussed. The thing is, you already admitted such regression was probably coming to an end, as signs of progress were finally being showed.

Unless you can prove that the Liverpool match was a total progress stopper and not just one bad performance, then all you're arguing here is how bad we were looking prior to AVB changing things up after the City match.

Don't know about you but I just see mistake after mistake after mistake, look everyone makes mistakes but the best learn from their errors and sadly it didn't look like he was and bearing in mind he made similar errors at Chelsea (a job he was sacked from before he came to us incidentally in case you're unaware)

Oh yeah, that AVB, he was all about the mistakes, he never once got anything right. Don't know how he keeps getting hired by top clubs and making millions.

 

[hodsgod]

All we got was six months of complete insanity.

Insanity from the AVB acolytes, we instantly got more goals and points when he left, this is fact not opinion.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Insanity from the AVB acolytes, we instantly got more goals and points when he left, this is fact not opinion.

Yep, never understood this. 6 goals in 12 games was something we should have kept going until the end of the season, yet scoring goals and winning more points was 'insanity' and made the club a laughing stock. Doesn't stack.

As to the poster who wrote above, "he keeps getting top jobs and earning millions", he's only been offered one top job and that was at Chelsea, and he royally fucked it there. In world football we are not a top job, and neither is Zenit, it's where the older managers tend to go for one last payday. He'll piss the league with Zenit, his style of leadership is matched to them having the best squad in the league by a country mile, but it won't be his way into the Barcelona/Real Madrid type job he craves.

 

[Real_madyidd]

As to the poster who wrote above, "he keeps getting top jobs and earning millions", he's only been offered one top job and that was at Chelsea, and he royally fucked it there. In world football we are not a top job, and neither is Zenit, it's where the older managers tend to go for one last payday. He'll piss the league with Zenit, his style of leadership is matched to them having the best squad in the league by a country mile, but it won't be his way into the Barcelona/Real Madrid type job he craves.

Top jobs are the top paid jobs, that is a fact. We pay well, as do Zenit. He must still be amongst the highest paid managers in the world.

Anyway, I spoke to someone yesterday who has good "financial links" to the club. Sound more like a mutual consent thing to me now. Apparently he was given the impression it would be his squad yet we didn't buy players he wanted (and they were available) and (shock of shocks) he wasn't too happy.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Top jobs are the top paid jobs, that is a fact. We pay well, as do Zenit. He must still be amongst the highest paid managers in the world.

Anyway, I spoke to someone yesterday who has good "financial links" to the club. Sound more like a mutual consent thing to me now. Apparently he was given the impression it would be his squad yet we didn't buy players he wanted (and they were available) and (shock of shocks) he wasn't too happy.

Don't be ridiculous, so Anzi was a top job was it? When Qatar throws money at coaches a year of two before the World Cup to attract attention will they become top jobs? Means nothing of the sort, those countries pay money to attract people, suits AVB down to the ground, he only wants a short coaching career then to race cars.

No offence, but heard so many rumours I'm not overly fussed about a financial connection, I could tell you what Graham Roberts and the Chelsea Kit Man think of AVB through direct conversations (one of them in a Sauna) but it makes no difference as it's still just rumour. He was barbecued for being shit, just like he was at Chelsea, pretty straightforward.

 

[Real_madyidd]

Don't be ridiculous, so Anzi was a top job was it? When Qatar throws money at coaches a year of two before the World Cup to attract attention will they become top jobs? Means nothing of the sort, those countries pay money to attract people, suits AVB down to the ground, he only wants a short coaching career then to race cars.

No offence, but heard so many rumours I'm not overly fussed about a financial connection, I could tell you what Graham Roberts and the Chelsea Kit Man think of AVB through direct conversations (one of them in a Sauna) but it makes no difference as it's still just rumour. He was barbecued for being shit, just like he was at Chelsea, pretty straightforward.

I disagree.

 

[stemark44]

This thread reminds me of Germans in denial who believe that the holocaust never actually happened.

 

[goughie1966]

I don't feel anything towards AVB, just meh. He's not even 40 years old and has managed to get over £15 million in the bank by performing poorly at Chelsea and Tottenham respectively. 2 years work and £15 million in the bank, he must pinch himself every morning he wakes up.

 

[ralvy]

Yep, never understood this. 6 goals in 12 games was something we should have kept going until the end of the season, yet scoring goals and winning more points was 'insanity' and made the club a laughing stock. Doesn't stack.

Obviously, shortage of goals is never ideal, but if we're still adding a competitive amount of points to the table (as compared with other top four contending clubs) while scoring a minimal amount of goals, I, for one, won't be complaining too much.

But its not like AVB's aim was to have us barely scoring (no coach of a relatively big team wants that), as you can see now we're playing under another coach, it just takes time to develop the kind of game that controls the ball while also having an explosive/creative attacking chemistry, specially when you don't have the resources of Barcelona or City. It seems to me AVB just gave priority to the defensive aspect of our game (you may not be aware of this, but we were lacking some serious talent on our back line last season) and the ball possession while leaving the creativity aspect as more of a long term goal. This is what some of our fans likes to refer as negative/boring football.

As to the poster who wrote above, "he keeps getting top jobs and earning millions", he's only been offered one top job and that was at Chelsea, and he royally fucked it there. In world football we are not a top job, and neither is Zenit, it's where the older managers tend to go for one last payday. He'll piss the league with Zenit, his style of leadership is matched to them having the best squad in the league by a country mile, but it won't be his way into the Barcelona/Real Madrid type job he craves.

As madyidd said, top jobs are those who pay top salaries. I would say more than 90% of football coaches in the world would take in a heart beat either of the Tottenham or Zenit jobs if offered to them.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Obviously, shortage of goals is never ideal, but if we're still adding a competitive amount of points to the table (as compared with other top four contending clubs) while scoring a minimal amount of goals, I, for one, won't be complaining too much.

But its not like AVB's aim was to have us barely scoring (no coach of a relatively big team wants that), as you can see now we're playing under another coach, it just takes time to develop the kind of game that controls the ball while also having an explosive/creative attacking chemistry, specially when you don't have the resources of Barcelona or City. It seems to me AVB just gave priority to the defensive aspect of our game (you may not be aware of this, but we were lacking some serious talent on our back line last season) and the ball possession while leaving the creativity aspect as more of a long term goal. This is what some of our fans likes to refer as negative/boring football.

As madyidd said, top jobs are those who pay top salaries. I would say more than 90% of football coaches in the world would take in a heart beat either of the Tottenham or Zenit jobs if offered to them.

90%? Now you're just being silly. You said 'no coach of a relatively big team wants that', then said 'top jobs pay top salaries, more than 90% of managers would take the Tottenham job if offered in a heartbeat.'

Brendan Rodgers turned us down for god sake.

So what are we? A 'relatively big club' (agree, but no more than relatively), or a top job? (Massively disagree). You see where your argument falls down? That would mean we have technically only been a top job since we employed Ramos? Seeing as we weren't paying that much money before we made such a 'dizzying offer' in his own words. I think this is where that argument falls down, in world football, as said, none of the jobs Villas-Boas has had have been top jobs, Chelsea apart, it's second tier stuff, which he's living off the back of his 1 successful year with the best team in Portugal. He's a very clever man, and knowing that he'll get instant success there will repair some of the damage he's done to his career.

Here's a list of Zenit's coaches since 2006:

Dick Advocaat
Luciano Spalletti
Andre Villas-Boas

Top job that attracts the creme of management? Not a chance.

And I'm well aware of most things do to with our defence, you get a much better overview being there than you do watching it on TV. That's obviously not your fault, but it rings true as to why you have the thought processes that you have.

 

[Coyboy]

Don't be ridiculous, so Anzi was a top job was it? When Qatar throws money at coaches a year of two before the World Cup to attract attention will they become top jobs? Means nothing of the sort, those countries pay money to attract people, suits AVB down to the ground, he only wants a short coaching career then to race cars.

No offence, but heard so many rumours I'm not overly fussed about a financial connection, I could tell you what Graham Roberts and the Chelsea Kit Man think of AVB through direct conversations (one of them in a Sauna) but it makes no difference as it's still just rumour. He was barbecued for being shit, just like he was at Chelsea, pretty straightforward.

Did you have conversations with the Chelsea physio in a sauna?