Dembele is better as a holding midfielder

[WestBelfast Spurs]

Nope had his good game a season against Chavs - id sell to be honest while we could get decent money for him

 

[shelfmonkey]

The only thing he's good at holding, steady, wait for it, is the door open for Harry Kane and he'd probably do that badly!!

 

[stemark44]

dembele is best as a non spurs player

There are plenty of players worse than Dembele that we need to get out the door first,at least he contributes something on occasions while others contribute nothing.

 

[lol]

There are plenty of players worse than Dembele that we need to get out the door first,at least he contributes something on occasions while others contribute nothing.

of course. but we are talking about his best position here

 

[JAYSTAR]

of course. but we are talking about his best position here

Yes we are. What would you say it is lol?

 

[JAYSTAR]

He's too slow to be the box to box or attacking mid, doesn't have the dribbling ability in the tight spaces of the final third to be an attacking mid, and can't even catch ball-carriers enough or intercept passes enough to be a decent defensive mid. He has just gotten worse and worse since his arrival despite his usefulness in specific games, and I think there's a lot of truth to the notions that he has been carrying hip ligament problems, and does need surgery.

The biggest problem is that he is extremely ineffective against the smaller sides that sit back. He has absolutely no tool in his shed whatsoever that can break them down, and he's not quick enough to eliminate a counter in these situations. We need more options who can, as our only player who can from deep is the extremely thin Ryan Mason. The sooner we move on players like Dembele, Paulinho, and Capoue who don't contribute enough for players who can a) make Poch's system better and b) give us some of these qualities for a more efficient midfield and consequently team, the better we'll all be.

I would bet he wins more 50/50s than the majority of our team. I'm really not sure where you're getting that from, maybe we can get your sister in the team. I cut dembele a bit of slack because I love him as a pure footballer. He's got faults obviously but so have virtually every one of our players. He's got a physical presence and the ability to take the ball under pressure and not get flustered. For me anyway that's quite an important Ability. The fashionable thing on here now seems to be getting rid of the ball early but unless you have the ability/confidence to take the ball under pressure, be able to manipulate, have it run across you're body etc and face the opposition the early balls will just end up passes/hospital balls back to where it came from and you just always end up playing the way your facing. Early balls are great but only if you have the ability to open up the pitch. I like mason and bentaleb but I'm yet convinced they can really do that

You do sound very sure of yourself @DaSpurs, but you seem to think that moving the ball on quickly is the only way to play in midfield. I can't see us bringing in multiple midfielders, so I'm saying we should try dembele as our holding mid alongside mason or bentaleb. We NEED someone who doesn't lose possession all the time and can lay it off to a mason type to start off moves.

 

[JAYSTAR]

If he is a holding midfielder he's not a very good one

He's only played as one once recently, that was against Chelsea, what other games are you thinking of?

 

[JAYSTAR]

That's the same shit

Turning away for fear of being hit by the ball and as a result letting the ball past - pathetic and certainly not the qualities of a decent defensive midfielder

I also think midfielders should be able to do a bit of everything

From 2 mins 20 we watch eriksen lose the ball, then eriksen and walker getting done by zaha, then capoue and dembele turning to take any sting on their backs from the shot. No way did Dembele jump out of the way. If you don't like him that's up to you, but he wasn't avoiding defending, I think he was just frustrated that he was never gonna get there before the shot and that was down to poor defending by walker and eriksen. If anyone needs to work on his all round play, its eriksen and his pansy 'tackling'. Love him, but he was very weak.

 

[Damian99]

I don't agree. He jumped and turned his back, he didn't jump out of the way.

And that's better because???

 

[Damian99]

The whole lot of the second goal, gets more fucking embarrassing to all involved, the more i watch it.

 

[Shea]

From 2 mins 20 we watch eriksen lose the ball, then eriksen and walker getting done by zaha, then capoue and dembele turning to take any sting on their backs from the shot. No way did Dembele jump out of the way. If you don't like him that's up to you, but he wasn't avoiding defending, I think he was just frustrated that he was never gonna get there before the shot and that was down to poor defending by walker and eriksen. If anyone needs to work on his all round play, its eriksen and his pansy 'tackling'. Love him, but he was very weak.

Eriken, Walker and Capoue all being poor for their winning goal doesn't excuse what Demebele did

I never said those guys weren't in the wrong for the goal - in fact if you search the match thread you will see I labelled all three of them pathetic for their role in the goal

Regardless though Dembele had the chance to close down the shot, spread himself and attempt to block but instead he jumped in the air and turned around like a little pansy and allowed the ball to rush straight past him

It was similar to what Ade and Paulinho did in the wall last season vs West Ham (aside from them being stationary and jumping away from the flight of the ball and he stopping his momentum into the path of the ball to jump and turn away from It)

I never said I didn't like him - I do like him. I just don't think he has the qualities required to be a defensive midfielder - he is very good at holding possession but he doesn't cover the back four, can't read the game effectively enough to make key interceptions, isn't a strong enough tackler

He's a very good and very talented player - he just is a bit lost when trying to find him a productive place in the team. If he could add some vision and end product he'd be a good attacking mid but he doens't seem to be able to do it regularly. Defensively he's not dominant enough nor good at breaking up play.

Possibly he would work as one of a midfield three with players better at the defensive and attacking side of the game, because his skill set must have some merit but as part of a two he just can't contribute enough at either end of the pitch

 

[JonnySpurs]

I've defended dembele many times but he doesn't do anywhere near enough to try and block that shot. BUT quite honestly, that ball drops to Eriksen and we should have been on a counter attack instead of him then getting caught out on the ball leading to Walker allowing himself to be totally turned inside out, which was almost as bad.

If Eriksen doesn't lose that 50-50 then I actually doubt we lose that game. We may have scored ourselves in the last 15 but most likely it would have played out to a draw.

But, what we should be clear on is that Eriksen has won us far more points than he's lost us so I'm not gonna victimise him for 1 piece of poor play. Equally dembele wasn't the reason that goal goes in either.

IMO dembele is better in the attacking third of the pitch in Poch's system and should only be utilised there in future. He doesn't do enough of what is expected of him in that double pivot role but he can still bring quality to our play if used correctly and that is NOT in defensive midfield.

 

[DaSpurs]

You do sound very sure of yourself @DaSpurs, but you seem to think that moving the ball on quickly is the only way to play in midfield. I can't see us bringing in multiple midfielders, so I'm saying we should try dembele as our holding mid alongside mason or bentaleb. We NEED someone who doesn't lose possession all the time and can lay it off to a mason type to start off moves.

No, I never said moving the ball on quickly is the only way, but it is nonetheless the very cornerstone of Poch's system. The quick, transitional passing is what pins the opposition back and therefore allows the full systematic press to organize. Dembele's horizontal, languid, timid passing is very good for some matches such as against Chelsea when we're under immense frustrated pressure, but it doesn't at all help to push us on against these smaller sides that find it so easy to compact quickly because we can't get the ball forward quickly enough.

I'm not opposed to Dembele playing the designated defensive mid as long as he is coupled with that more dynamic player a la Mason. Someone who can present to Dembele when under pressure or after he wins a tackle, and move the ball away. But when he tries this hybrid role, just as when Capoue and Stambouli try it, it just doesn't work. We have to have a dynamic option from deep, or balance is not established. Symmetry perhaps, but not balance.

 

[JAYSTAR]

No, I never said moving the ball on quickly is the only way, but it is nonetheless the very cornerstone of Poch's system. The quick, transitional passing is what pins the opposition back and therefore allows the full systematic press to organize. Dembele's horizontal, languid, timid passing is very good for some matches such as against Chelsea when we're under immense frustrated pressure, but it doesn't at all help to push us on against these smaller sides that find it so easy to compact quickly because we can't get the ball forward quickly enough.

I'm not opposed to Dembele playing the designated defensive mid as long as he is coupled with that more dynamic player a la Mason. Someone who can present to Dembele when under pressure or after he wins a tackle, and move the ball away. But when he tries this hybrid role, just as when Capoue and Stambouli try it, it just doesn't work. We have to have a dynamic option from deep, or balance is not established. Symmetry perhaps, but not balance.

But this is exactly what I said mate. The hybrid idea doesn't work, he needs to be told to sit, mop up, defend more and release the ball to mason or bentaleb when we get a quick turnover or keep possession to reduce pressure and slow things down if we come under pressure. Sometimes we need someone who is happy keeping the ball and stopping opposition momentum. We can't just counter attack all game.

 

[DaSpurs]

But this is exactly what I said mate. The hybrid idea doesn't work, he needs to be told to sit, mop up, defend more and release the ball to mason or bentaleb when we get a quick turnover or keep possession to reduce pressure and slow things down if we come under pressure. Sometimes we need someone who is happy keeping the ball and stopping opposition momentum. We can't just counter attack all game.

The difference is you advocate a future for him. I'm happy with it enough for the time being, but even then I don't think someone deserves a place just because they slow things down and maintain possession. Carroll can do this just fine, he just lays it off before he's forced to shield the ball and the net effect is the same. Other players can do this just fine, and can also contribute a great deal more and especially including in the categories crucial to how Poch's system works. Slow, meandering possession is useful at times such as in the Chelsea game, but does nothing for us against these smaller sides which continue to confound us.

So while it's good enough for now IMO if we can't move him on, I think the team as a whole needs to move and Poch needs to find the players more conducive to his system. Less than 20 forward passes a game from the deepest position in midfield is directly contradictory to how we need to be countering these smaller sides that try to compact their defenses quickly before we move it forward. That passing count is absolutely not going to open up space for the forward players and catch the defense in behind. It is not good enough, and it's directly inhibitory to the very foundation of that which props up how Poch's system works.

 

[JAYSTAR]

Bump... @DaSpurs?

 

[DaSpurs]

Bump... @DaSpurs?

Yeah man I'm on board lol. I'll take him here any day over being on the No 8 or No 10 spots.

 

[JAYSTAR]

Yeah man I'm on board lol. I'll take him here any day over being on the No 8 or No 10 spots.

Finally! Now you're on board, maybe we get a petition together and send it to poch.

It's his ability to retain possession when the opposition try to press that I like.
He has always had that ability and the willingness to protect the back four, which is why I figured he should just adapt and play that role. But next to Dier, it would be like Sandro and Dembele again, providing a platform for our attacking four of lamela / N'jie Eriksen Son and Kane to go all out for goals.

Either way, he is the only real back up we have to Dier. Nice to hear Spurs fans finally saying something positive about him.

 

[DaSpurs]

Finally! Now you're on board, maybe we get a petition together and send it to poch.

It's his ability to retain possession when the opposition try to press that I like.
He has always had that ability and the willingness to protect the back four, which is why I figured he should just adapt and play that role. But next to Dier, it would be like Sandro and Dembele again, providing a platform for our attacking four of lamela / N'jie Eriksen Son and Kane to go all out for goals.

Either way, he is the only real back up we have to Dier. Nice to hear Spurs fans finally saying something positive about him.

Well, personally I wouldn't want to see him and Dier in the same midfield simultaneously. I'm all abut having a No 8 who can get forward to supply and support the attackers rather than giving them a foundation with two No 6's. I think the latter can stagnate and suffocate the attack, while as the former can open up more space for the attack through more support and more unpredictability.

However, his ability to retain possession in the midst of a press is unbelievable. As a result, I think he should be our starter in the No 6 against the bigger sides, the ones willing to come at us and press us in our midfield. He has been nothing short of brilliant when he has been assigned this role.

 

[Syn_13]

Finally! Now you're on board, maybe we get a petition together and send it to poch.

It's his ability to retain possession when the opposition try to press that I like.
He has always had that ability and the willingness to protect the back four, which is why I figured he should just adapt and play that role. But next to Dier, it would be like Sandro and Dembele again, providing a platform for our attacking four of lamela / N'jie Eriksen Son and Kane to go all out for goals.

Either way, he is the only real back up we have to Dier. Nice to hear Spurs fans finally saying something positive about him.

I wasn't overly keen on the Sandro/Dembele combination. I'm not that keen on Dembele as a holding mid either. You don't want ball retention from a player sitting just in front of the back 4. Once you win the ball you need to feed one of the attacking players immediately, not hold on to it for 5 seconds. Otherwise it just kills the momentum of your attack and allows the opposition defence to reset.

I like Dembele, he has some great qualities, although I reckon he's probably the most frustrating player in our squad in terms of building your expectations and letting them crash down. His strength and skill on the ball is 2nd to none, he glides past players with ease. He excels at dribbling but otherwise he's a bit of a jack-of-all-trades. He hasn't really mastered much else. He's not the best passer, nor is he the most creative so he's not quite worked out in an attacking mid role. Bizarrely for someone who started life as a forward he seems afraid to shoot, despite the fact that he's got a killer left foot. I think it was Les Ferdinand who commented on how he'd drive everyone mad in training by looking world class and then brainfarting when he gets into a deadly position.

On the defensive side of his game he's not quite the full package either. He's strong as an ox, is decent positionally and an okay tackler, but he's not quite the enforcer we need in front of that back 4. I don't think he reads the game that well or gets back quick enough. He works best when the midfield is congested (like it was against Liverpool) and he can use his physical attributes to stamp authority. Against a team that'll stretch you or attack on the break quickly, like Man City for example, I think he'll end up chasing shadows if given the holding mid role.

He can put a decent shift in but I wouldn't rely on him to be the Sandro/Parker/Dier type (providing Dier continues his form and proves he can make it as a DM full-time). If he had more stamina and a higher workrate he'd be solid as a box-to-box CM as he's got a decent range of talents. I do think he adds some good experience to the team and does play well against the big boys who like to get physicial. He had a great game against Chelsea back in Jan, and again this weekend against Liverpool. Both teams played to his strength, which was quite simply that...strength.

Ultimately, I see him as a good option to have in the team for those games, but against the sides where you need to get a little more creative in order to unlock a defence I don't think he offers much. If we were playing with 3 in the centre then I think he'd have a better chance of a first team spot, but Poch clearly loves his 4-2-3-1. He's a great option to have when we're up by a couple of goals and want to simply keep the ball and slow things down.