Didier Zokora tonight

[AllSeeingEye]

Huddlestone ..... was playing like a beaten man

I think the sudden change in humidity and temperature, and finding that he hadn't fully recovered from the weekend may have been a factor.

I love his long range passing abilities, and the fact he's a hulk of a man, but I think his frame is his undoing since he doesn't seem to be able to carry it around for long enough without looking bushwhacked.

If I was Jol I'd book Hudd i for some intense fitness training and maybe a little schooling for his head so he can increase his mental sharpness even if his body lets him down.

I had great hopes for him, and wanted to see him become a morphed mongrel of Vieira(Commanding)/Roy Keane(Tenacious)/Incredible Hulk(Huge)/Carrick(Excellent passer), but it doesn't look like it's happening......

But back on topic.....I thought Zokora stood out as a decent player last night. I hope he has done enough to impress and take over for JJ while he's injured.

If he is willing to play the same at the weekend I'd use Tainio and Lennon rather than Prince B and Hudd against the 'pool......


Anyway...back to work I'm blabbering....

 

[Bus-Conductor]

It's not unintelligent but seeing as you are unintelligent I'll attempt to explain it.

Zokora is just a poor footballer. Yes he can run around and yes he's made a couple of good covering tackles recently. But if you can't see that most of the time those covering tackles come from him giving the ball away in the first place then there's not much else I can say.

But apart from his ability to run quickly what the hell does he offer the team? He takes 4 touches to control the ball when 1 would do so even if we're moving forwards quickly he slows it down horrifically, and he constantly gets caught in possession because of it.

His passing is poor. The only time he finds our players is when he passes sideways which is fine some of the time but it would be nice if he actually had the ability to pass the ball forwards.

And yes I'm sure you get all tingly and aroused when he makes his dashes forwards but can you point to one time when that has actually resulted in anything good happening? No because he runs into blind alleys away from anyone else on his team.

He doesn't have any of the attributes to make him a premiership midfielder, and of course it's well up the pecking order because the centre of midfield is the most important position on the pitch.

His first touch is as good as anybody's in our midfield.

His recovering tackles never come from him giving the ball away. hey more often than not come from our poor set pieces breaking down.

And statistics prove he generally gives the ball away less than most in our team.

The fact that he can beat players means that he is happier on the ball under pressure. Unlike Huddlestone for example.


My main point, which you of course chose to ignore is that if we are going to rip into incompetant players he is a little way down the list.

Can somebody tell, relative tih job of defending, where Dawson excells. Or again relative to his defensive duties, where Chimbonda excells. And as for Robinson, compared to Zokora in terms of competance he makes Zokora Glen Hoddle and Viera combined.

 

[Stoof]

Can somebody tell, relative tih job of defending, where Dawson excells. Or again relative to his defensive duties, where Chimbonda excells. And as for Robinson, compared to Zokora in terms of competance he makes Zokora Glen Hoddle and Viera combined.

But then if you collected data of all the League points that you could attribute individually (which is pretty tricky anyway) to the playing staff, I reckon Zokora would heavily feature minuses and the others you mentioned be well in the plus.

I think if you look at overall careers (if you don't like the above hypothesis) at Spurs, I think it's safe to say that he's not really had a great one, nor a great influence in anything overly positive.

Yeah he's got a stupid song, and runs like a moron chasing skirt on a Friday night - but what else? A presence? Do oppositions fear him? Make plans to counter his effect on our team.

Rather harshly, I expect the opposition just say "give him the ball, you'll get it back soon enough".

Do "giving ball away" statistics include going on ludicrous runs and getting tackled and rolling around like he's been shot? I doubt it - I expect they just cover passes.

Which unless to Chimbonda, aren't ever that fulfilling, driving or good.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

But then if you collected data of all the League points that you could attribute individually (which is pretty tricky anyway) to the playing staff, I reckon Zokora would heavily feature minuses and the others you mentioned be well in the plus.

I think if you look at overall careers (if you don't like the above hypothesis) at Spurs, I think it's safe to say that he's not really had a great one, nor a great influence in anything overly positive.

Yeah he's got a stupid song, and runs like a moron chasing skirt on a Friday night - but what else? A presence? Do oppositions fear him? Make plans to counter his effect on our team.

Rather harshly, I expect the opposition just say "give him the ball, you'll get it back soon enough".

Do "giving ball away" statistics include going on ludicrous runs and getting tackled and rolling around like he's been shot? I doubt it - I expect they just cover passes.

Which unless to Chimbonda, aren't ever that fulfilling, driving or good.

Why not just try answering my question instead of avoiding it ?

Would you like me to ask it again ?

Is Dawson better at defending than Zokora is midfielding ?

Is Chimbonda ?

Is Robinson better at goalkeeping ?

Is Lennon better at winging ?

Is Huddlestone better for the team ?

If your answer is yes to any of the above then elaborate, if not please don't fuck about with long winded digression. It gets boring and I thought with Joey gone we might avoid it.

 

[Stoof]

If you read what I'm saying, or at least the gist, you'll see I'm asking you to qualify your questions.

Do you mean now? The last game? Over their entire careers? Give me a time frame and I will answer your questions.

And as a side note, I will waffle and digress as I choose. :shake:

 

[ladi100]

I don't care what anyone says.
Stats are often misleading.
According to stats, Lescott is Evertons best striker :shrug:

But anyway, I digress.............
Everyone slates zoko, but remember:

He provided a nice pass that (eventually) led to the goal at Bolton last week
He was the best of a shocking Midfield on Monday
He didnt look too bad last night

Compared to usual, the guy is showing signs of improvement.

On the other hand the Hudd is showing a rapid decline!!!!

Yet its zoko who continually gets bashed :shrug:

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Stoof
so that's a no to all the above then.

 

[Stoof]

Yet its zoko who continually gets bashed :shrug:

The only problem I have with the comparison with Huddlestone is that Zokora is 26 (soon to be 27) and that Huddlestone is 20 (soon to be 21).

Yet I wouldn't say or even try and determine that there is 6 years of 'better player' in Zokora.

Huddlestone is a kid in essence, Zokora has represented his country and played a serious number of games. He's got the experience, and he should be in a position to know exactly what sort of player he actually is.

He doesn't and isn't in that position.

 

[Stoof]

Stoof
so that's a no to all the above then.

No! It's not a no, I've asked for more information from you. Because it stops the "well in the last game, Dawson was woeful and Zokora was great" line. If you want an overall impression, I'll give you one:

Dawson (a kid) has one schoolboy error a game. He does it without fail. He'll get out of that habit we hope. But how can you argue that he hasn't been a rock at the back for us? How can you then argue that Zokora (Internationally capped, World Cup playing, 200 League game playing) has been as good in his position?

I don't think the burden of proof is the right way round, but hey that hasn't stopped anyone before :wink:

What is Dawson's job - lead the line? Win defensive headers? Make block tackles? Clear his lines?

Robinson's job - to make saves? To come and collect crosses? To distribute the ball successfully (either long or short)?

Zokora's job - hold the midfield? Tackle? Start 'moves'? Track his man? Position himself in a position to intercept and break up moves?

Now, out of those tasks (there are probably more, but this is just a surface scratch) - I'd say aside from his one error a game, and shocking lack of pace, Dawson successfully achieves his tasks on a more than regular basis - over the stretch of a season/career/game.

Robinson can't seem to catch a ball these days? But I'd say he's up there with the best shot stoppers in the League. His kicking, although sometimes unnecessary, is the longest we've had for ages. He's starting to roll the ball out for the full-backs, it's happening a lot more even without Ledley there now.

Zokora is getting better. No doubt about it. But he still manages to not succeed in completing his tasks more than half of the time. Is that blinkered? Is that me wanting him to fail (which I've been tarred with many a time on here)? I don't think it is. He constantly loses possession on his runs forward. His distribution is woeful, he rarely 'starts moves' in a Carrick-like fashion, he has issues "showing" for the ball but his tackling isn't too bad when he gets it right. So I'll give him that.

But as a function in the team, he's definitely not carrying out his tasks as well as some others are - how can you say differently? I'd not be so foolish as to claim victory by pure weight of numbers, but there are an increasing amount of doubters/naysayers of his actual ability.

I have nothing against him personally, I just feel he's not the right player for Spurs. He leaves our midfield in limbo, as he himself is in limbo. JJ and Huddlestone have definted roles, and JJ can generally get further forward. Tainio and Zokora worked well against Fulham though, and I expect because TT said "do what I do".

This post is very disjointed as I've had to come back to it a few times due to a couple of calls I've had to take, but I think I've explained myself?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

No! It's not a no, I've asked for more information from you. Because it stops the "well in the last game, Dawson was woeful and Zokora was great" line. If you want an overall impression, I'll give you one:

Dawson (a kid) has one schoolboy error a game. He does it without fail. He'll get out of that habit we hope. But how can you argue that he hasn't been a rock at the back for us? How can you then argue that Zokora (Internationally capped, World Cup playing, 200 League game playing) has been as good in his position?

I don't think the burden of proof is the right way round, but hey that hasn't stopped anyone before :wink:

What is Dawson's job - lead the line? Win defensive headers? Make block tackles? Clear his lines?

Robinson's job - to make saves? To come and collect crosses? To distribute the ball successfully (either long or short)?

Zokora's job - hold the midfield? Tackle? Start 'moves'? Track his man? Position himself in a position to intercept and break up moves?

Now, out of those tasks (there are probably more, but this is just a surface scratch) - I'd say aside from his one error a game, and shocking lack of pace, Dawson successfully achieves his tasks on a more than regular basis - over the stretch of a season/career/game.

Robinson can't seem to catch a ball these days? But I'd say he's up there with the best shot stoppers in the League. His kicking, although sometimes unnecessary, is the longest we've had for ages. He's starting to roll the ball out for the full-backs, it's happening a lot more even without Ledley there now.

Zokora is getting better. No doubt about it. But he still manages to not succeed in completing his tasks more than half of the time. Is that blinkered? Is that me wanting him to fail (which I've been tarred with many a time on here)? I don't think it is. He constantly loses possession on his runs forward. His distribution is woeful, he rarely 'starts moves' in a Carrick-like fashion, he has issues "showing" for the ball but his tackling isn't too bad when he gets it right. So I'll give him that.

But as a function in the team, he's definitely not carrying out his tasks as well as some others are - how can you say differently? I'd not be so foolish as to claim victory by pure weight of numbers, but there are an increasing amount of doubters/naysayers of his actual ability.

I have nothing against him personally, I just feel he's not the right player for Spurs. He leaves our midfield in limbo, as he himself is in limbo. JJ and Huddlestone have definted roles, and JJ can generally get further forward. Tainio and Zokora worked well against Fulham though, and I expect because TT said "do what I do".

This post is very disjointed as I've had to come back to it a few times due to a couple of calls I've had to take, but I think I've explained myself?

Dawson makes more than one schoolboy error per game. He makes several if you include not being capable of marking at set pieces and reading and reacting quickly to danger and throw in his very rudimentary ability on the ball (just look at the even younger "kid" Kaboul who is already far better on the ball). I watched a game the other day when the arsenal keeper was stranded off his line and Toure imediately read the danger, went behind him and saved a certain goalbound shot. Dawson does not have this ability to react. And in two and a half seasons he hasn't improved one inch. And our defensive ability has deteriated as one consequence.
So basically it boils down to Dawson winning a percentage of headers. Great.

Robinson is a great shot stopper. Are you fucking taking the piss out me ? Are you deliberately insulting my intelligence ?
He is catagorically, statistically the worst in the premiership. Stoof if you are going to spout this complete nonsense it is going to severely discredit any argument you make. His strength is that occasionally he does a big kick. He has directly cost us more more points than any other player.

How can I claim that Zokora carries out his task better ? Even this thread was started by a confessed Zokora doubter. When was the last time anybody actually started a thread that said "wow dawson was awsome today" or "wow Robinson actually wasn't a big fat lrdy arsed hopeless wanker today"

The only stinker that even Joey can remember Zokora having was Arsenal away last year and guess who played worse that day and gave away two goals - DAWSON.

At worst Zokora is competant. Which is regularly more than is said about Dawson's defending and Robinsons keeping. Often it is more than is said about keane up front and Lennon on the wing.

THAT IS MY POINT. Distribute your shit evenly. Apply you critical assessment fairly.

Think things through stoof. Apply rationale before posting.

 

[Stoof]

Dawson makes more than one schoolboy error per game. He makes several if you include not being capable of marking at set pieces and reading and reacting quickly to danger and throw in his very rudimentary ability on the ball (just look at the even younger "kid" Kaboul who is already far better on the ball). I watched a game the other day when the arsenal keeper was stranded off his line and Toure imediately read the danger, went behind him and saved a certain goalbound shot. Dawson does not have this ability to react. And in two and a half seasons he hasn't improved one inch. And our defensive ability has deteriated as one consequence.
So basically it boils down to Dawson winning a percentage of headers. Great.

Robinson is a great shot stopper. Are you fucking taking the piss out me ? Are you deliberately insulting my intelligence ?
He is catagorically, statistically the worst in the premiership. Stoof if you are going to spout this complete nonsense it is going to severely discredit any argument you make. His strength is that occasionally he does a big kick. He has directly cost us more more points than any other player.

How can I claim that Zokora carries out his task better ? Even this thread was started by a confessed Zokora doubter. When was the last time anybody actually started a thread that said "wow dawson was awsome today" or "wow Robinson actually wasn't a big fat lrdy arsed hopeless wanker today"

The only stinker that even Joey can remember Zokora having was Arsenal away last year and guess who played worse that day and gave away two goals - DAWSON.

At worst Zokora is competant. Which is regularly more than is said about Dawson's defending and Robinsons keeping. Often it is more than is said about keane up front and Lennon on the wing.

THAT IS MY POINT. Distribute your shit evenly. Apply you critical assessment fairly.

Think things through stoof. Apply rationale before posting.

Like I said it was disjointed, and just because you seem to claim a higher number in age does not give you the right to constantly patronise me as you do.

You've immediately thrown in the line I knew you were going to and have picked out flashpoints without looking at trends and overall picture.

You also offer "there haven't been any "he was great threads"" as some sort of evidence to their playing ability. I thought Boateng (for his first game) was good yesterday, yet we've got a couple of threads slating him. And if we look through player rating threads throughout last season (and this) Dawson will comfortably score higher than Zokora in pretty much every game. Maybe not in your ratings, but hey, you thought Kanoute played well in every game. :wink:

As for Robinson, he is a fantastic shot stopper. That side of his game hasn't been affected. If you're saying his ability to (what was it that person said in that Robbo thread last year? Oh yeah ...) "save the unsaveable" is non-existent - well good. It should be. How you save anything unsaveable is beyond me. Surely that causes some sort of implosion? (I'm well aware this wasn't you saying this, but the point still stands that he can't save thunderbolts if that is what they are).

Player preferences are personal, and only ever objective when not affected either way.

Zokora doesn't do his tasks he's set to do - and you haven't shown me anything that says different. You've also ignored my point about him running with the ball to dead ends and losing possession. Unless you think that should be part of his job? What do you want Zokora to do?

Dawson does his job more often than not. You seem to say because he's not perfect that means he's not performing his tasks, yet because Zokora is 'competent', he is? Where's the logic there?

I certainly don't see it. And maybe you should think about this ... if Zokora wasn't in front of Dawson, maybe he wouldn't have so much work to do?


We're going in circles though. I'm never gonna agree that Zokora is anything more than an average midfielder at the Clemence, Sherwood, Nielsen level. A step down from the level we've had in the last 5 years.

 

[SpurSince57]

THAT IS MY POINT. Distribute your shit evenly. Apply you critical assessment fairly.

Think things through stoof. Apply rationale before posting.

As in, 'Mido is shit' and 'Ade Akinbiyi is better than Mido'?

 

[justfookinhitit]

"Stoof hits him with a left, BC comes back with an uppercut. Stoof dodges and throws out his jab ..........."

Glad you two are enjoying yourselves.:grin:

 

[sloth]

Maybe not in your ratings, but hey, you thought Kanoute played well in every game. :wink:

Not every game, but he was scandalously under-rated. It still makes me laugh when people profess surprise at his improvement since he's gone to Spain.

As for Robinson, he is a fantastic shot stopper. That side of his game hasn't been affected. If you're saying his ability to (what was it that person said in that Robbo thread last year? Oh yeah ...) "save the unsaveable" is non-existent - well good. It should be. How you save anything unsaveable is beyond me.

He's not a fantastic shot-stopper. In his first season he saved us uncountable times and the step up from Keller was palpable. I think he's too heavy, he's leaden footed and his lack of conditioning means that while his reactions might be as swift his body can't react fast enough. Twice against 'gusta he'd have been nowhere if the shots had been just a foot closer in. These weren't unstoppable shots they just needed a fleet-footed, quick reaction. You say "Save the unsaveable", but in fact they're unsaveable only in relation to Robinson and his fitness and physique, put Cech between the posts, or Howard, or James, or any number of more athletic more limber premiership keepers and they are not "unsaveable". Doesn't mean they'll be saved of course, but that's something different.

We're going in circles though. I'm never gonna agree that Zokora is anything more than an average midfielder at the Clemence, Sherwood, Nielsen level. A step down from the level we've had in the last 5 years.

No you're not and therein lies the rub. Oh well.

 

[Stoof]

He's not a fantastic shot-stopper. In his first season he saved us uncountable times and the step up from Keller was palpable.

Ohhhhhhhhh yes he is :wink:

You say "Save the unsaveable", but in fact they're unsaveable only in relation to Robinson and his fitness and physique, put Cech between the posts, or Howard, or James, or any number of more athletic more limber premiership keepers and they are not "unsaveable". Doesn't mean they'll be saved of course, but that's something different.

No it's not. And apologies if I it came across otherwise. I'm talking about all the supposéd long shots last season that other keepers "would have saved". You've got to admit that some shots and a particularly large number last season, were unsaveable by any person you dare to put in front of them with gloves on. Speed, swerve, angle and placement. Those are the shots I'm talking about that he was criticised for not saving when it was palpably obvious to most that unless our goalie is goal shaped in dimensions, no-one gets near 'em.

I see what your saying about his "lack of condition". I just don't think it helps that the comparisons he gets are to Van Der Sar (who is probably the skinniest keeper I've ever seen). He's no different in build to Schmeichel, Friedel or my mate Dave who plays in goal down the Power League. I think he can get across the goal quick enough when he needs to - I just pray that people remember his past. But maybe we can't be sentimental - and I honestly don't know the solution. :-(

No you're not and therein lies the rub. Oh well.

I should have caveated that by saying "until he or anyone can show me any reasons to think otherwise".

 

[sloth]

Ohhhhhhhhh yes he is :wink:

No it's not. And apologies if I it came across otherwise. I'm talking about all the supposéd long shots last season that other keepers "would have saved". You've got to admit that some shots and a particularly large number last season, were unsaveable by any person you dare to put in front of them with gloves on. Speed, swerve, angle and placement. Those are the shots I'm talking about that he was criticised for not saving when it was palpably obvious to most that unless our goalie is goal shaped in dimensions, no-one gets near 'em.

I see what your saying about his "lack of condition". I just don't think it helps that the comparisons he gets are to Van Der Sar (who is probably the skinniest keeper I've ever seen). He's no different in build to Schmeichel, Friedel or my mate Dave who plays in goal down the Power League. I think he can get across the goal quick enough when he needs to - I just pray that people remember his past. But maybe we can't be sentimental - and I honestly don't know the solution. :-(

I should have caveated that by saying "until he or anyone can show me any reasons to think otherwise".

In order,

Ohhh, no he isn't!

And there are indeed such things as unsaveable shots and Robinson's had more than his fair share of these, but there's another category, which is what I was talking about.

Fair enough.

 

[gibbs131]

In order,

Ohhh, no he isn't!

And there are indeed such things as unsaveable shots and Robinson's had more than his fair share of these, but there's another category, which is what I was talking about.

Fair enough.

Ooooh yes he is.

It is the ONLY thing he can do is stop close range shots. He can not save anything in the top corner is all. Because it's like Dumbo trying to fly.

 

[tony0379]

he was his usual pathetic,useless self

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Like I said it was disjointed, and just because you seem to claim a higher number in age does not give you the right to constantly patronise me as you do.

You've immediately thrown in the line I knew you were going to and have picked out flashpoints without looking at trends and overall picture.

You also offer "there haven't been any "he was great threads"" as some sort of evidence to their playing ability. I thought Boateng (for his first game) was good yesterday, yet we've got a couple of threads slating him. And if we look through player rating threads throughout last season (and this) Dawson will comfortably score higher than Zokora in pretty much every game. Maybe not in your ratings, but hey, you thought Kanoute played well in every game. :wink:

As for Robinson, he is a fantastic shot stopper. That side of his game hasn't been affected. If you're saying his ability to (what was it that person said in that Robbo thread last year? Oh yeah ...) "save the unsaveable" is non-existent - well good. It should be. How you save anything unsaveable is beyond me. Surely that causes some sort of implosion? (I'm well aware this wasn't you saying this, but the point still stands that he can't save thunderbolts if that is what they are).

Player preferences are personal, and only ever objective when not affected either way.

Zokora doesn't do his tasks he's set to do - and you haven't shown me anything that says different. You've also ignored my point about him running with the ball to dead ends and losing possession. Unless you think that should be part of his job? What do you want Zokora to do?

Dawson does his job more often than not. You seem to say because he's not perfect that means he's not performing his tasks, yet because Zokora is 'competent', he is? Where's the logic there?

I certainly don't see it. And maybe you should think about this ... if Zokora wasn't in front of Dawson, maybe he wouldn't have so much work to do?


We're going in circles though. I'm never gonna agree that Zokora is anything more than an average midfielder at the Clemence, Sherwood, Nielsen level. A step down from the level we've had in the last 5 years.

Stoof, I am sorry but it is easy to patronise you when you make such silly statements. Your argument is far more subjective than mine in general. You say "Dawson does his job more often than not" - so if he does his job 51% of the time how good is that ? Doesn't that make him on the same level as people like Calderwood, Vega ? (even if it's 65%)

And to say things like Dawson regularly scores more in match ratings is ridiculous. Match ratings is full of twits that thought Mido was better than Kanoute. Dawson is popular for the obvious reason. He charges around with a big shit eating grin. But if you really, really watch him he is pretty average at best. He doesn't read the game, he lacks intellect, he is slow, (the way agbonlahore walked passed him the other day was embarassing ) he is clumsy, he is poor at marking, he shirks responsibilty, he lacks leadership ability.

In short he is just a big, game lump who offers nothing special that many other CB's offer.

Whereas Zokora is multifunctional. He can tackle, he can pass, he can dribble. His passing stats this season are better than Hudds I think, not bad for the guy that is predominantly our deeper sitting DM. He gives the ball away less than Most in our team.

Hardly Clemence or Nielsen is he. It's hard not to be patronising when you say such daft things. He has more energy and ability than those two put together.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Stoof, I am sorry but it is easy to patronise you when you make such silly statements. Your argument is far more subjective than mine in general. You say "Dawson does his job more often than not" - so if he does his job 51% of the time how good is that ? Doesn't that make him on the same level as people like Calderwood, Vega ? (even if it's 65%)

And to say things like Dawson regularly scores more in match ratings is ridiculous. Match ratings is full of twits that thought Mido was better than Kanoute. Dawson is popular for the obvious reason. He charges around with a big shit eating grin. But if you really, really watch him he is pretty average at best. He doesn't read the game, he lacks intellect, he is slow, (the way agbonlahore walked passed him the other day was embarassing ) he is clumsy, he is poor at marking, he shirks responsibilty, he lacks leadership ability.

In short he is just a big, game lump who offers nothing special that many other CB's offer.

Whereas Zokora is multifunctional. He can tackle, he can pass, he can dribble. His passing stats this season are better than Hudds I think, not bad for the guy that is predominantly our deeper sitting DM. He gives the ball away less than Most in our team.

Hardly Clemence or Nielsen is he. It's hard not to be patronising when you say such daft things. He has more energy and ability than those two put together.

He's not multifunctional

He can tackle (although he made only one tackle against Villa based on your beloved 'stats)

He can't pass.

He can't 'dribble'. He can run fast past people into the middle of nowhere...if you can't see the difference then you really have no business trying to patronise anyone.