Match Threads Dinamo Zagreb vs Spurs - Match Thread- 2nd leg

[wrd]

Yeah, but the split in the dressing room is between those who act professionally and fight for the badge and those who don't. How is anyone, even the vaunted Nagelsmann going to fix that?

We need a clearout of players and to remove as many players with shit attitudes as possible but Jose has been accused of being out of touch with the mindset of modern players at his recent clubs. I believe dealing with the attitude of modern players to be the biggest battle managers face and frankly I just don't see evidence that Joss is able to adapt his methods to deal with them. It's all well and good when you're managing Terry, Drogba, Lampard, Cech but that's not the era we are in these days.

There's an argument to say that Nagelsmann could fare better in that regard.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Yeah, but the split in the dressing room is between those who act professionally and fight for the badge and those who don't. How is anyone, even the vaunted Nagelsmann going to fix that?

It’s so so hard to say because at the end of the day we don’t know who those are acting unprofessionally and why.

Let’s say using assumptive guessing evidence a few examples might be:
- Dele : has beef with Jose because he’s been frozen out for ages, he loved Poch and had a good attitude under him, mabye he’d have thr
- Aurier : the manager said to him he was scared he would give away a ‘shit penalty’ , hardly good for confidence. New manager might be nicer to him , arm around shoulder etc
- Bale : seemed to be freezing him out early on possibly. New manager might fancy playing him more often
- Winks : unhappy for being dropped, would see a new manager as a fresh chance, if said manager wanted to play possession football Winks might fit in well who knows
- Sissoko : also unhappy for being dropped. Again would see a new manager as a new chance

I don’t see many of our players as bad eggs, we hardly have a changing room full of Joey Barton’s do we...

 

[SpursSince1980]

You are reading far too much into what Lloris did and didn't say. I saw the interview, I posted it here, how on earth can you deride from that that it's all the players fault? Lloris is hardly going to come out and say Jose is the problem is he? When do players ever do that on camera? Yes he indicated that some players are not pulling their weight, we ALL know that. It's been clear that we need a clear out, but that doesn't excuse the the utter shambolic tenure that has been Mourinho as Spurs manager.

And regardless of how shit or disengaged our squad players are, we have lost plenty of games with our strongest team out. What is your excuse for that one? How does that fit your narrative that it's all about the crap squad players? What is laughable here is you've jumped on a 7 minute interview from Lloris to somehow demonstrate that it's all about the players and has nothing to do with Jose.

The buck stops with the manager, he is not getting anywhere close to the best of this squad including all our best players. Give your head a wobble.

I'm guessing you have played football, right?

And I think we are all coached from a young age about the importance of making space, running in to space, and most of all, that it is will and desire that wins games. You consistently see our players are often standing still. They move sluggishly. They switch off.

Saw an interesting example of that in the past year in the NFL.

Tom Brady. For so many years, he always had a small astrix next to his name: He was a product of Bill Belicheck's system. That coach is the genius. So, at 44 years old, he quits the team he has won a gazillion super bowls with, and goes to Tampa-fucking-Bay. And what does he do? With a team that was just a smidge above average? He won the fucking super bowl again. Why? Cos he has the will and the mentality to be a 45 year old athlete, who can still play better than guys in the league who weren't even born before he was drafted by New England.

Or, how about the NBA... Jordan's Bulls were a good team. But that man, demanded perfection, and did so, by leading by example. Same with Lebron.

Yes, football is much more of a team game. Totally agree. But mentality is so important. At the level they play, that's what separates the very good from the brilliant.

Now, I am not saying that the coach doesn't bare responsibility. Of course they have a role to play. A very important one. In Jose's case, he hasn't been able to break through. Whatever methodology he has tried to apply has failed. That's a given.

But, I certainly did not take from Lloris' interview that this was all about Jose. I took it, as it was something bigger. That probably does include the coach. But maybe, just maybe.... he was also talking about his teammates too.

 

[rez9000]

We need a clearout of players and to remove as many players with shit attitudes as possible but Jose has been accused of being out of touch with the mindset of modern players. I believe dealing with the attitude of modern players to be the biggest battle managers face and frankly I just don't see evidence that Joss is able to adapt his methods to deal with them. It's all well and good when you're managing Terry, Drogba, Lampard, Cech but that's not the era we are in these days.

There's an argument to say that Nagelsmann could fare better in that regard.

An accusation is easy to make and very difficult to prove. If the problems with attitude were in place before he arrived, how is it even possible to determine if he's at fault? And, as we've had to do so often, we return to why this same attitude seemed to exist before Mourinho came to the club? I'm really sorry to put it like this wrd - lots of time for you etc - but you're allowing your conclusion to determine your hypothesis a little.

The supposed idea of Mourinho's out-of-touchedness (to coin a phrase) is based on some very shaky evidence - based on players who have reputations for having bad attitudes.

And a bad attitude has nothing to do with modern management. A poor attitude is a poor attitude. Footballers are people. They're not clones that are specially engineered and who react differently to other humans. And players have directly spoken about how he is supportive and caring too. He is demanding, that's undeniable, but then so is Dyche, so is Klopp, so is Pep, so are so many other managers - even the radical Potter has been described as demanding.

This narrative that Mourinho is some form of aberration is utterly false and comes from taking the actions of the likes of John Terry (one of the most monumental ****s in the history of football) and Paul Pogba (one of the most arrogant and self-absorbed players in the history of football) and their inflexibility and unwillingness to bow to their manager, which is their bloody job!

And now we have our own set of unprofessional ****s doing the same thing and somehow that makes Mourinho the culprit. That there is anyone who stands up for them is one of the reasons some of them feel they can. We should be celebrating it if Mourinho treats them harshly. They are paid hundreds of times what most of us will see in a lifetime, doing something they love and can after a few years of work retire in luxury for the rest of their lives and we're giving them license to then demand to be treated like delicate flowers on top of that???

As far as I'm concerned, I want Mourinho to call them out, I want him to send them to the reserves and rot there until someone comes calling or their contracts run out because their actions are sabotaging the club, which our club captain has pretty much said without doing so explicitly.

 

[George94]

It’s so so hard to say because at the end of the day we don’t know who those are acting unprofessionally and why.

Let’s say using assumptive guessing evidence a few examples might be:
- Dele : has beef with Jose because he’s been frozen out for ages, he loved Poch and had a good attitude under him, mabye he’d have thr
- Aurier : the manager said to him he was scared he would give away a ‘shit penalty’ , hardly good for confidence. New manager might be nicer to him , arm around shoulder etc
- Bale : seemed to be freezing him out early on possibly. New manager might fancy playing him more often
- Winks : unhappy for being dropped, would see a new manager as a fresh chance, if said manager wanted to play possession football Winks might fit in well who knows
- Sissoko : also unhappy for being dropped. Again would see a new manager as a new chance

I don’t see many of our players as bad eggs, we hardly have a changing room full of Joey Barton’s do we...

I think Hugo basically implies there are too many players not fighting for the team and only for themselves.

Harry Winks, who I have defended a lot, for months has appeared more interested in regaining his place in the England squad than regaining his place in our starting XI.

It's clear Dele wanted out, Jose wanted him out too, but Levy blocked any move. Freezing him out for months and just expecting him to perform when chucked back in was never going to work.

Bale plays well when we have the ball and intention to attack - whenever we play more defensive, Bale is pretty useless.

Sissoko, although you'd think he's got all the qualities and adaptability of being a very good squad / utility player, that role doesn't suit him. He is very much a confidence player who thrives when he's constantly in the team.

I'm not sure Aurier should be part of this discussion - he's actually been very good this season and is just coming back from injury.

As for that dickhead Dier at the back, he is utterly useless. He's been given more chances than he deserves.

 

[rez9000]

It’s so so hard to say because at the end of the day we don’t know who those are acting unprofessionally and why.

Let’s say using assumptive guessing evidence a few examples might be:
- Dele : has beef with Jose because he’s been frozen out for ages, he loved Poch and had a good attitude under him, mabye he’d have thr
- Aurier : the manager said to him he was scared he would give away a ‘shit penalty’ , hardly good for confidence. New manager might be nicer to him , arm around shoulder etc
- Bale : seemed to be freezing him out early on possibly. New manager might fancy playing him more often
- Winks : unhappy for being dropped, would see a new manager as a fresh chance, if said manager wanted to play possession football Winks might fit in well who knows
- Sissoko : also unhappy for being dropped. Again would see a new manager as a new chance

I don’t see many of our players as bad eggs, we hardly have a changing room full of Joey Barton’s do we...

None of those are adequate reasons for acting unprofessionally. If Dele has a beef with Mourinho, he still needs to do his job. If Aurier has his confidence knocked then how do we explain the uptick in performance this season? Bale has directly said that he wasn't ready until recently; Winks can go fuck himself if that's the level of performance he thinks is adequate to have a starting place in a League One side, let alone Spurs; and the same for Sissoko.

One thing I'll say about Joey Barton, while in no way defending his behaviour - at least he left it all on the pitch. He fought for the shirt.

 

[mano-obe]

I walked away with the third goal, I didn't even look at the replay. I did watch the rest of the match.

The third goal was shocking, I haven't see that sort of stuff since the Gross days, even Michael Brown and Gary Doherty who were limited players in the early 2000s could have done better getting that ball. It really was Sunday League shit

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

None of those are adequate reasons for acting unprofessionally. If Dele has a beef with Mourinho, he still needs to do his job. If Aurier has his confidence knocked then how do we explain the uptick in performance this season? Bale has directly said that he wasn't ready until recently; Winks can go fuck himself if that's the level of performance he thinks is adequate to have a starting place in a League One side, let alone Spurs; and the same for Sissoko.

One thing I'll say about Joey Barton, while in no way defending his behaviour - at least he left it all on the pitch. He fought for the shirt.

I agree they’re shouldn’t be reasons for acting unprofessionally but it doesn’t mean that players haven’t.

I think the Dele situation is a big issue, Jose for whatever reason rightly or wrongly froze him out and then quite possibly wanted to sell him, it didn’t happen and now he’s chucked him back in expecting him to just play brilliantly again.

who really knows the actual details but either way the football stinks as does the dressing room so a refresh all round is a must.

 

[DCSPUR]

It's extremely obvious that Hugo was not criticising the manager for the performance tonight. He was using the same tone that Jose has used in the past - players not listening, not doing what they're asked to by the manager.

We've heard that Kane is apparently totally onboard with Jose, clearly so is Hugo. They obviously see the issue as the lack of commitment from the squad to play the way they're being asked and to put in the effort required.

However much we agree with them or not (I'm sure Jose doesn't exactly get away from this with zero criticism) - it's clear where the senior players think the problems lie, and it's not with the manager, however much a lot of us might think it is.

I can imagine the private conversations Jose will have had with his senior players. No doubt they revolve a lot around the mediocrity in a lot of the playing squad.

not sure --- there are some comments about training and preparation that don't speak well for Jose

 

[rez9000]

I agree they’re shouldn’t be reasons for acting unprofessionally but it doesn’t mean that players haven’t.

I think the Dele situation is a big issue, Jose for whatever reason rightly or wrongly froze him out and then quite possibly wanted to sell him, it didn’t happen and now he’s chucked him back in expecting him to just play brilliantly again.

who really knows the actual details but either way the football stinks as does the dressing room so a refresh all round is a must.

The issue with Dele is that it was the tail wagging the dog by all accounts - the club refusing to back the manager (how many times have we heard that???) and getting rid of the player. But even then, I've not said that I think Dele is or isn't one of the players acting up. Again, that's just us assuming that it is because we think we'd respond in the same way. We don't know that Dele is one of the ****s because the whole team underperformed tonight, so we can't pick out individuals, but we can say that those individuals are affecting the whole squad.

The only rumour I've seen naming a specific player was Winks.

 

[journeyman]

We really missed Hojbjerg tonight, by the way. We shouldn’t have needed him, but boy did we miss him.

 

[DCSPUR]

How can we expect Jose to stay on when we have comments like these?

We've heard it time and again, from Jose, from ITK, from Harry, our talisman; from Hugo, our club captain. That interview was as close as someone could come to saying there's a bunch of ****s in the dressing room without actually naming them and you still want it to be all about Mourinho? How much evidence do you need? I reckon if one of those players causing the problems came out and point-blank admitted to it, you'd still scrabble around, desperately trying to find some way of pinning it on Mourinho.

Of course we can't expect him to stay - the attitude that leads to comments like the one above makes the position untenable. If some supposed fans act like this, is it any wonder some players do too? They know that they can outlast the manager and a section of fans will get full on wood when the inevitable happens.

If there are players agitating, not pulling their weight, that's not on the manager, it's on those players. They're the ones you should be lambasting. They're the ones not living up to what Lloris mentioned; he said: "[The] important thing is this" - pointing to the fucking BADGE!!! Whatever his failings may or may not be, at the very least Mourinho is fighting for THAT!

You are determined to make this all about Mourinho and nothing else. We lose, it's Mourinho's fault; we win, Mourinho lucked out. A group of players act like Class-1, Grade-A ****s, we're being told it as bare-facedly as it's possible without actually using names; a bunch of ****s who are destabilising the club and causing us to lose against our bitter rivals and to be dumped out of yet another competition and you use it as an excuse to have another pop at the manager.

In the face of the evidence of your own eyes and ears, evidence coming straight from the horse's mouth, from someone directly involved, who has infinitely more knowledge than you have or are ever likely to have, and you insist on pointing the finger elsewhere.

You're essentially siding with the ****s that Hugo has all but named! Have a word with yourself!

This is why we fuck up all the time!

which suggests that it comes down to Levy --- should have had the big clear out after the CL final ---- instead he gave new deals to dier, toby etc etc.

 

[VoteMe4Prez]

What Hugo said needed to be said

 

[VoteMe4Prez]

We really missed Hojbjerg tonight, by the way. We shouldn’t have needed him, but boy did we miss him.

Massively. Him playing tonight stops them in the centre.

 

[wrd]

An accusation is easy to make and very difficult to prove. If the problems with attitude were in place before he arrived, how is it even possible to determine if he's at fault? And, as we've had to do so often, we return to why this same attitude seemed to exist before Mourinho came to the club? I'm really sorry to put it like this wrd - lots of time for you etc - but you're allowing your conclusion to determine your hypothesis a little.

The supposed idea of Mourinho's out-of-touchedness (to coin a phrase) is based on some very shaky evidence - based on players who have reputations for having bad attitudes.

And a bad attitude has nothing to do with modern management. A poor attitude is a poor attitude. Footballers are people. They're not clones that are specially engineered and who react differently to other humans. And players have directly spoken about how he is supportive and caring too. He is demanding, that's undeniable, but then so is Dyche, so is Klopp, so is Pep, so are so many other managers - even the radical Potter has been described as demanding.

This narrative that Mourinho is some form of aberration is utterly false and comes from taking the actions of the likes of John Terry (one of the most monumental ****s in the history of football) and Paul Pogba (one of the most arrogant and self-absorbed players in the history of football) and their inflexibility and unwillingness to bow to their manager, which is their bloody job!

And now we have our own set of unprofessional ****s doing the same thing and somehow that makes Mourinho the culprit. That there is anyone who stands up for them is one of the reasons some of them feel they can. We should be celebrating it if Mourinho treats them harshly. They are paid hundreds of times what most of us will see in a lifetime, doing something they love and can after a few years of work retire in luxury for the rest of their lives and we're giving them license to then demand to be treated like delicate flowers on top of that???

As far as I'm concerned, I want Mourinho to call them out, I want him to send them to the reserves and rot there until someone comes calling or their contracts run out because their actions are sabotaging the club, which our club captain has pretty much said without doing so explicitly.

You're asking how do we know if Jose is at fault well then my question would be to find the answer, was he not brought in to instill a certain mentality into the group of players we have, was it not that he would bring a new mentality. Thusly does he not therefore have a responsibility for the overall attitude of the squad. We even had a documentary that emphasised that this was the big challenge that Jose had to face.

Also with regards to the players attitudes before Jose was in, wasn't the big problem with the likes of Kane. It was certainly hinted at. It seems to me that the players Jose is struggling with are the opposite ones to Poch, I mean Dele wanted to go be with Poch first chance he could. (Though all of this is conjecture of course just a consideration).

However let me be clear, I'm not defending the players attitudes, if players are not giving their all, I want the manager to call them out, if they feel theyre being wrongly called out, I want them to speak out. Im tired of having to use our gut feelings to arrive at opinions. I want to understand the roots of the issues as we're the ones paying for it.

What I will say however regardless of whether Jose can do it with modern players and I still have my doubts. If the attitude is not his responsibility and we are somehow able to replace a lot of the squad. I still don't see what he is bringing tactically to the squad. We hear a lot that the team isnt doing what he wants us to do but even seemingly the likes of Kane, Moura, Hojbjerg and Son are not doing whatever it is.

 

[rez9000]

which suggests that it comes down to Levy --- should have had the big clear out after the CL final ---- instead he gave new deals to dier, toby etc etc.

Yes, of course - there's problems all up and down the chain (for want of a better word). But the principle one, to my mind, isn't the manager at the moment.

As I've maintained for some time, it won't matter if we get rid of the manager, something that is looking more and more inevitable, because he won't be taking the principle problems with him if he goes. They'll still be here. We're focusing, as a club including the fans, on the wrong 'problem'.

 

[yid-down-under]

Someone is getting ahead of themselves.

man.... I didn’t expect that

 

[M.I.B.]

Massively. Him playing tonight stops them in the centre.

But even his last few performances have been somewhat lacking.

 

[rez9000]

You're asking how do we know if Jose is at fault well then my question would be to find the answer, was he not brought in to instill a certain mentality into the group of players we have, was it not that he would bring a new mentality. Thusly does he not therefore have a responsibility for the overall attitude of the squad. We even had a documentary that emphasised that this was the big challenge that Jose had to face.

Unfortunately what you're doing here, buddy is again shifting your conclusion to fit your hypothesis. I'm not arguing semantics here, but your initial position was that the players were at fault but that Mourinho was responsible for it. What you're saying now is that Mourinho should be accountable for not removing it, and that's a very different thing.

Also with regards to the players attitudes before Jose was in, wasn't the big problem with the likes of Kane. It was certainly hinted at. It seems to me that the players Jose is struggling with are the opposite ones to Poch, I mean Dele wanted to go be with Poch first chance he could. (Though all of this is conjecture of course just a consideration).

Perhaps, perhaps not. We don't know enough to know who is in the **** camp (as I'm going to call them) and who isn't. The key here is that we have an attitude problem and whether it was Kane then but is Poch (edit: mean to type 'Dele') now, it still points to a very bad attitude across the whole squad. Something that's engrained in them before Mourinho arrived - that their personal wishes come before the team, come before the badge. Whoever is acting like that now is at issue because it's causing problems now, but it still points to something that Mourinho is not responsible for causing. Whether he has the ability to remove it has been lost in the noise of those who were unwilling to give him an opportunity right from the get-go. And I'm not talking about the fans only - as I mentioned before, the noise has been added to by a media that are desperate to stick the knife in and who have been influencing the fans. Listen to tonight's commentary to see how egregious its getting.

However let me be clear, I'm not defending the players attitudes, if players are not giving their all, I want the manager to call them out, if they feel theyre being wrongly called out, I want them to speak out. Im tired of having to use our gut feelings to arrive at opinions. I want to understand the roots of the issues as we're the ones paying for it.

I know you're not defending the players' attitude, buddy. That would be an absurd thing for me to say. And I'm in the same boat as you with wanting to know what the living fuck is going on. But let's say Mourinho calls out players, the first thing you'll hear is people screaming about Mourinho 'throwing x under the bus'. Few of the screamers actually stop to ask whether x deserves to be thrown under the bus before rushing to the defence of the little snowflake, as long as there's a chance to have a pop at Mourinho. I mean look at some of the comments after Hugo's interview landed on these pages.

What I will say however regardless of whether Jose can do it with modern players and I still have my doubts. If the attitude is not his responsibility and we are somehow able to replace a lot of the squad. I still don't see what he is bringing tactically to the squad. We hear a lot that the team isnt doing what he wants us to do but even seemingly the likes of Kane, Moura, Hojbjerg and Son are not doing whatever it is.

We all have doubts. Would that it were different.

 

[DCSPUR]

Yes, of course - there's problems all up and down the chain (for want of a better word). But the principle one, to my mind, isn't the manager at the moment.

As I've maintained for some time, it won't matter if we get rid of the manager, something that is looking more and more inevitable, because he won't be taking the principle problems with him if he goes. They'll still be here. We're focusing, as a club including the fans, on the wrong 'problem'.

agree with you.