Form and Fatigue

[EastLondonYid]

As I wrote in the "Why's Dembele being frozen out?" thread, I think it was Danny Murphy on MOTD who said that Pochettino's teams traditionally flag towards the end of the season.
Now, I'm no expert but I don't think Southampton finished last season as well as they'd been around the turn of the year, at least.
Southampton were a comparatively small club with a limited squad but now he's at a bigger club with more resources, he should be taking advantage of the squad and not just picking the same team, week in, week out - especially when we're on a poor run of form.
Mason came in with fire in his belly - surely we must have someone else who's desperate to prove themselves. Just one player could change the whole attitude and desire of the whole team.

Alternatively, Poch has realised the Europa Cup is like a millstone and is trying all he can to avoid it next year.

Someone should tell poch that the only way he will avoid the EL is if L'pool or the scum fail to win the cup, thats unlikely and out of his hands.
By finishing 7th all Poch will achieve is that we start playing in the EL in early july.

 

[225]

As I wrote in the "Why's Dembele being frozen out?" thread, I think it was Danny Murphy on MOTD who said that Pochettino's teams traditionally flag towards the end of the season.
Now, I'm no expert but I don't think Southampton finished last season as well as they'd been around the turn of the year, at least.
Southampton were a comparatively small club with a limited squad but now he's at a bigger club with more resources, he should be taking advantage of the squad and not just picking the same team, week in, week out - especially when we're on a poor run of form.
Mason came in with fire in his belly - surely we must have someone else who's desperate to prove themselves. Just one player could change the whole attitude and desire of the whole team.

Alternatively, Poch has realised the Europa Cup is like a millstone and is trying all he can to avoid it next year.

I think Danny Murphy was is talking out of his arse and trying to sound knowledgeable.

Here's Poch's PL results across last Season:

August: W - WBA; D - Sunderland; L - Norwich
September: D - West Ham; W - Liverpool; W - Palace
October: W - Swansea; D - Man Utd; W - Fulham
November: D - Stoke; W - Hull; L - Arsenal
December: L- Chelsea; L - Villa; D - City; D - Newcastle; L - Spurs; W - Cardiff; L - Everton
January: L - Chelsea; W - WBA; D - Sunderland; D - Arsenal
February: W - Fulham; D - Stoke; W - Hull; L - West Ham
March: L - Liverpool; W - Palace; W - Norwich; L - Spurs; W - Newcastle
April: L - City; L - Cardiff; D - Villa; W - Everton
May: W - Swansea; D - Man Utd

and as points won/available and % of points won:

Aug: 4/9 - 44.4%
Sept: 7/9 - 77.8%
Oct: 7/9 - 77.8%
Nov: 4/9 - 44.4%
Dec: 5/21 - 23.8%
Jan: 5/12 - 41.7%
Feb: 7/12 - 58.3%
Mar: 9/15 - 60%
Apr: 4/12 - 33.3%
May: 4/6 - 67%


His best months were Sept and October at ~78% of points won
His next best months were March and May.

His worse run was mid-season, picking up only 5 points from a possible 21 (23.8%).

The spread is quite even, showing an December crash and a steadier improved end to the season, bar a small dip in April.

First 19 games (up to 31 Dec) - 27 points won from possible 57 (47.4%)
Last 19 games (up to 11 May) - 29 points won from possible 57 (50.9%)

 

[Black]

well if you play the same 13/14 players week in week plus double training sessions its common sense they’re going to get tired.
You wouldn’t play the same 11 week in week out on football manager, we don’t even see half the squad it’s like they fell into black hole at the training ground.

Doesn’t surprise me at all the way our season has dried up.

 

[talkshowhost86]

It's definitely a mitigating factor, albeit one that has to be viewed with the knowledge that Poch could have done something about it.

He hasn't managed the squad very well, and if he felt that certain players weren't going to play for him (Kaboul, Capoue, Adebayor etc) then they should have been replaced in the Europa squads by younger players.

Alternatively, if we were going for it in the Europa League, maybe send out much more reserve teams in the League Cup. Trying to do both was always going to be a problem.

And now, at this stage of the season, when certain players are clearly flagging, why not try some of the younger players rather than pushing on with the same knackered bunch who don't appear able to lift themselves.

So yes I accept that tiredness is a factor in why we are now performing so badly, but it's not a factor that Poch had no control over. We may well end up in the competition again next year and he will need to manage it significantly better.

 

[225]

Here's our season so far, in comparison:

August: W - West Ham; W - QPR; L - Liverpool
September: D - Sunderland; L - WBA; D - Arsenal
October: W - Southampton; L - City; L - Newcastle
November: W - Villa; L - Stoke; W - Hull; W - Everton
December: L- Chelsea; D - Palace; W - Swansea; W - Burnley; W - Leicester; D - Man Utd
January: W - Chelsea; L - Palace; W - Sunderland; W - WBA
February: W - Arsenal; L - Liverpool; D - West Ham
March: W - Swansea; W - QPR; L - Man Utd; W - Leicester
April: D - Burnley; L - Villa; ?? - Newcastle; ?? - Southampton
May: ?? - City; ?? - Stoke; ?? - Hull; ?? - Everton

and as points won/available and % of points won:

Aug: 6/9 - 66.7%
Sept: 2/9 - 22.2%
Oct: 3/9 - 33.3%
Nov: 9/12 - 75%
Dec: 11/18 - 61.1%
Jan: 9/12 - 75%
Feb: 4/9 - 44.4%
Mar: 9/12 - 75%
Apr: 1/6 so far 16.7%
May:......

First 19 games (up to 31 Dec) - 31 points won from possible 57 (54.4%)
Second half so far (up to 14 April) - 23 points won from possible 39 (58.97%)

As far as results go, our form has improved in the second half of the season.

 

[Chinaspur]

Here's our season so far, in comparison:

August: W - West Ham; W - QPR; L - Liverpool
September: D - Sunderland; L - WBA; D - Arsenal
October: W - Southampton; L - City; L - Newcastle
November: W - Villa; L - Stoke; W - Hull; W - Everton
December: L- Chelsea; D - Palace; W - Swansea; W - Burnley; W - Leicester; D - Man Utd
January: W - Chelsea; L - Palace; W - Sunderland; W - WBA
February: W - Arsenal; L - Liverpool; D - West Ham
March: W - Swansea; W - QPR; L - Man Utd; W - Leicester
April: D - Burnley; L - Villa; ?? - Newcastle; ?? - Southampton
May: ?? - City; ?? - Stoke; ?? - Hull; ?? - Everton

and as points won/available and % of points won:

Aug: 6/9 - 66.7%
Sept: 2/9 - 22.2%
Oct: 3/9 - 33.3%
Nov: 9/12 - 75%
Dec: 11/18 - 61.1%
Jan: 9/12 - 75%
Feb: 4/9 - 44.4%
Mar: 9/12 - 75%
Apr: 1/6 so far 16.7%
May:......

First 19 games (up to 31 Dec) - 31 points won from possible 57 (54.4%)
Second half so far (up to 14 April) - 23 points won from possible 39 (58.97%)

As far as results go, our form has improved in the second half of the season.

Aug: 6/9 - 66.7%
Sept: 2/9 - 22.2% Europa
Oct: 3/9 - 33.3% Europa
Nov: 9/12 - 75% Europa
Dec: 11/18 - 61.1%
Jan: 9/12 - 75%
Feb: 4/9 - 44.4% Europa
Mar: 9/12 - 75%
Apr: 1/6 so far 16.7%
May:......

It's not a simple as two halves. Aside from this month (which has only two games so far) our three worst months we had a heavy workload compared to our rivals because of Europa.

 

[225]

Aug: 6/9 - 66.7%
Sept: 2/9 - 22.2% Europa
Oct: 3/9 - 33.3% Europa
Nov: 9/12 - 75% Europa
Dec: 11/18 - 61.1%
Jan: 9/12 - 75%
Feb: 4/9 - 44.4% Europa
Mar: 9/12 - 75%
Apr: 1/6 so far 16.7%
May:......

It's not a simple as two halves. Aside from this month (which has only two games so far) our three worst months we had a heavy workload compared to our rivals because of Europa.

We also had one of our best months at a time where we had 2 Europa matches in one month (November).

We only had one in September, our worst month (excluding April so far) so it doesn't follow quite the same.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

IMO this tiredness thing isn't being understood correctly, in this case it isn't as simple as how many games played and rotating as we would usually understand it………..That isn't what he said. At all.

“It was a very long season. When you do a whole season playing Thurs-Sunday and you are a young squad and you make the biggest effort during the season, maybe you arrive at the end at very difficult level,” he was quoted by the Mirror as saying.

“Not physically, but mentally, in a very difficult moment at the end of the season.”

He's talking about the younger players being mentally tired, several of the team are in their first full seasons competing week in, week out at a much higher level. It's something that seems to have surfaced over the last two or three games and (reading between the lines) its something he's looking into to see wether it is a factor or not.

Is it really a factor? I don't know really, when you think about it I suppose there might be something to it and I wouldn't write it off out of hand because there isn't one of us qualified to really know. Although that wont matter

 

[225]

IMO this tiredness thing isn't being understood correctly, in this case it isn't as simple as how many games played and rotating as we would usually understand it………..That isn't what he said. At all.

“It was a very long season. When you do a whole season playing Thurs-Sunday and you are a young squad and you make the biggest effort during the season, maybe you arrive at the end at very difficult level,” he was quoted by the Mirror as saying.

“Not physically, but mentally, in a very difficult moment at the end of the season.”

He's talking about the younger players being mentally tired, several of the team are in their first full seasons competing week in, week out at a much higher level. It's something that seems to have surfaced over the last two or three games and (reading between the lines) its something he's looking into to see wether it is a factor or not.

Is it really a factor? I don't know really, when you think about it I suppose there might be something to it and I wouldn't write it off out of hand because there isn't one of us qualified to really know. Although that wont matter

I don't think it's easy to understand unless you've been a young pro in the game, which I haven't, so who knows?

I do think that the drop in form has been exaggerated and is just part of the "Timmeh beat us" meltdown. Our form isn't declining that much so far, and there's still plenty left in the season.

 

[Francis Gibbs]

most of the season our late winners and ability to go the full 90 is down to Poch's training, the double sessions, fittest we have been etc now we fall away embarrassingly and its all down to fatigue.
cant have it both ways ......

 

[EastLondonYid]

most of the season our late winners and ability to go the full 90 is down to Poch's training, the double sessions, fittest we have been etc now we fall away embarrassingly and its all down to fatigue.
cant have it both ways ......

spot on

Beginning of the season we are told by the 'pundits' that players need 10 -14 games to get fully match fit after the summer, then we get to Xmas and the experts start to tell us that the players are playing too many games and they need a winter break, that's at 17-22 games...then we get to the business end of the season 28 -38 game, and the players are mostly fucked by then we are told,after a long campaign....so basically there is an excuse for 80% of the season?

Its all mostly bollox imo,not always but mostly......when the top teams win trebles and doubles they play far more games then the shite that go out in the early rounds.....its bullshit and excuses.

How many games did the German squad play all season after a long succesfull campaign with their clubs? they looked ok to me.

 

[JerryGarcia]

Doesn't anyone else remember Poch's early interview in which he was asked about burnout from double sessions? He said it wasn't that simple and that common sense was used if players were tired. It sounded a much more flexible system than some of you are making out, as if he would keep pushing them past their limits if they were in need of rest and recovery.

 

[JerryGarcia]

spot on

Beginning of the season we are told by experts that players need 10 -14 games to get fully match fit after the summer, then we get to Xmas and the experts start to tell us that the players are playing too many games and they need a winter break, that's at 17-22 games...then we get to the business end of the season 28 -38 game, and the players are mostly fucked by then we are told,after a long campaign....so basically there is an excuse for 80% of the season?

Its all mostly bollox imo,not always but mostly......when the top teams win trebles and doubles they play far more games then the shite that go out in the early rounds.....its bullshit and excuses.

How many games did the German squad play all season after a long succesfull campaign with their clubs? they looked ok to me.

I'd say teams that win doubles and trebles simply have enough world class players to drag them through difficult matches. If we could always have at least two worldies on the pitch in any match we play, we'd be in the top four already and would have gone deeper into the Europa.

 

[EastLondonYid]

I'd say teams that win doubles and trebles simply have enough world class players to drag them through difficult matches. If we could always have at least two worldies on the pitch in any match we play, we'd be in the top four already and would have gone deeper into the Europa.

But we didn't win the treble and we have a big enough squad not to have to play Mason & Bentaleb EVERY week, thats the point, its not fatigue its wrong choices...Poch for reasons only known to him and which he has to address,has NOT utilised his squad correctly...it maybe because he doesn't rate them, but this has to be sorted out or we have no hope in improving.

 

[jezz]

It's a Spurs thing, we always crash and burn in the final third of the season.

 

[CJMurray]

We also had one of our best months at a time where we had 2 Europa matches in one month (November).

We only had one in September, our worst month (excluding April so far) so it doesn't follow quite the same.

That was a terrible month of football apart from the Everton game though. Scraped through the Villa and Hull games with a dodgy red card, deflected free kick in the 90th and and Eriksen 90th min winner.

 

[JerryGarcia]

But we didn't win the treble and we have a big enough squad not to have to play Mason & Bentaleb EVERY week, thats the point, its not fatigue its wrong choices...Poch for reasons only known to him and which he has to address,has NOT utilised his squad correctly...it maybe because he doesn't rate them, but this has to be sorted out or we have no hope in improving.

Yeah he needs to sort it out but his hands are tied until the summer. It seems to me he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't in regards to using the full squad. Play Paulinho or Ade at the Lane and they actually get booed coming on the pitch, then groans every time there's poor play. He played Capoue and everyone said he was great untill he had a few poor games, then he became a shit mercenary who didn't care about the club etc...

Maybe Poch is just trying to get through the rest of the season learning as much as possible about the limits of the players he can trust? I don't know but like you say it needs changing as soon as we can, if he fails in that then we could have real problems but I've seen enough that I think he knows what needs to be done.

 

[225]

That was a terrible month of football apart from the Everton game though. Scraped through the Villa and Hull games with a dodgy red card, deflected free kick in the 90th and and Eriksen 90th min winner.

Hopefully this one won't need a caption....

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

On the 15th of March Spurs played Man U. A pivotal game for both teams. Man U blew us away playing a high tempo game having been forced to finally pick a team which didn't look like a blindfold and set of darts had been instrumental in selection.

Since then their season has gone from strength to strength, whilst ours has withered quickly.

However, that game was Man U's 35th of the season. It was our 48th.
Since that game Man U have gone on and won some critical games:

Game 35: 3-0 w Spurs
Game 36: 2-1 w Liverpool
Game 37: 3-1 w Villa
Game 38: 4-2 w Man City

Wouldn't it have been great if we could have shown that kind of form..? well we kinda actually did...

Our Game 35: 2-1 w Sunderland
The following three league matches:

3-0 w West Brom
2-1 w Arsenal
2-3 l Liverpool (A game at Anfield that we played pretty well in)

We have already played 7 more games than Man U will play for their whole season and will finish up the season having played 20 hours more football than they have. Add in to that the flights all over Europe (they only managed to get to Wales... and lost there) and difficult rhythm of regular Sunday football and the form of the two teams over the last few weeks should not come as a surprise.

It may be argued that Poch should have rotated more, and placated the more difficult elements of the squad so there was more choice but those issues don't undermine his whole philosophy and the clear improvements we all saw.

This young squad will come back fitter and better drilled after a summer with Poch and we've a lot to look forward to.

Several of our most boring performances/draws, throughout the season, came after long breaks, (8-14 days). But Happy Optimism Day!

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Personally I think the double training sessions are part of the reason why our players can't handle so many games.

These double training sessions, I would expect, are mainly for pre season and short periods in season. I highly doubt that double sessions has been the norm every week.