How does 4-2-3-1 work?

[JollyHappy]

This is not a thread having a go at AVB or the team.

There are quite a few teams playing 4-2-3-1 - for example Liverpool just at the moment on TV and I can't see how the system is meant to work effectively in attack.

I can see the defensive side although it looks pretty easy to split the "2" but if you are attacking then unless one of the "2" pushes forward then you have the "3" across the pitch probably too far apart and one forward covered by 2 centre backs.

If you put our team into the model then let's say we are playing Norwich who were playing 4-5-1. Our full backs if getting forward with Bale/Lennon on either side mean that we just have say Siggurdson in the middle and Defoe (or Ade) forward and the "2 sitting back. If one of the "2" does push forward as Dembele starting doing then suddenly if you lose the ball then you only have 1 midfielder coping with 2 or 3 breaking forward. Exactly what happened to Liverpool for the Arse goal just now.

So question for debate is how should the system work - anyone think of a team that plays it well at present?

 

[danielneeds]

Real Madrid and Germany are two of the best exponents of the system, the keys are the wide forwards, who have to be intelligent and make movements off the flanks and linking up with the central striker. At the moment it doesn't seem like Bale and Lennon have any understanding of this.

There are some good write ups of system on the zonal marking website.

 

[bigpalacios]

Just considered to give you balance all over the pitch and just because it has 2 deep sitting mids on paper its usually the case that one of those push foward when you are in possession. Having an extra midfielder in there often gives you more control of the game and you can dictate the game.

 

[tototoner]

Man City play it fairly well

The best way I would describe would be a strong defence with 2 CM's ( I do not like the term DM because they do more than defend ) and 2 marauding fullbacks

The front 4 would be dynamic and fluid, this will take time

 

[YiddoBirdy]

City use it well you need a player like Yaya Toure in the centre of the park to do both defend and make good foward runs .

 

[noahrobert]

I think the best ways it benefits a team are the movement of the wide forwards, making runs between the centre back and full back, nullifying and occupying the opponents full backs, keeping them in defence mode rather than joining attacks, and also the square of 2 cm in front of 2 cb's. This square defensively should pick up any diagonal ball or straight, traveling through the square, allowing the whole rest of the team to attack, allowing 6 attacking players. The 2 methods above compliment each other as the opposing full backs should be occupied leaving any wide play by the opponent to a single player with no over lap.

Key play is the distance between players in the square, keeping relatively tight and in unit and the runs and occupancy of the opposing full backs, same really for the 433 essentially. Also the middle of the 3 should not only attack but close down the central playmaker or main midfield pin of the opponent.

4231/433 is the most progressive and tactical system in play today, providing of course it is executed correctly.

 

[Bing]

What ever happened to a good 3-5-1 system...Verts, Gallas and Kaboul kicking it up to a Niall Quinn style striker and five Steffen Freunds in the middle biting the ankles off the opposition...thats what we need back to basics. Proper football.

 

[YiddoBirdy]

Lloris
Walker Vert Kaboul BAE
Sandro Dembele
Bale Sig Dempsey
Ade

I think it could work reasonably well with Spurs.

This formation usually requires fullbacks that are good on the ball and are happy to push up and provide the width, in Walker and BAE we have them.

We need one player to sit back and break down opposition attacks we have two top class players who can do that in Parker and Sandro. The other cm will need to be an all rounder who can start attacks, dictate the tempo but also get back and defend when we haven't got the ball, I'm still learning about Dembele but he looks like a player capable of doing so.

The two wide players need to be able to cut inside and be good passers of the ball and can provide a goal threat. Bale has proved he can play on the right and cut inside for Wales (although I'd prefer him on the left). Dempsey has shown that he can get goals at Fulham and he has a good passing range so he would be ideal on the left hand side.

The CAM will need to be the creative force and will need to be a player who can unlock defences. Sadly I don't think we have a player who can do that any more the closest we have to this is Gylfi.

In this formation ideally you would need a forward capable of holding up the ball, link up well with midfield and most importantly get the goals, Adebayor has all of those attributes.

 

[DJS]

I think with Parker and Sandro it could work quite well as Parker does have more to him if allowed to express himself - at Charlton he was their main playmaker, it's just that he's so darn good at the holding role he seems to have been pigeon-holed into that role.

Ultimately I think Dembele will be a good option in there too and Moutinho would have been even more ideal and even more then Modric IMHO as Moutinho can play as a defensive midfielder or further forward given him a bit more flexibility.

It's a real shame we didn't get him as he would have been EPIC alongside Sandro / Parker and Dembele in midfield.

Ah well, with any luck we'll get him in Jan.

 

[We'llWinThePrem]

Bayern and City are the best at it.

IMO, we would be better with a 4-3-3

 

[mpickard2087]

Needs intelligent wide players who are always moving and looking to make runs into space which we dont have in Lennon and Bale.

Any system is going to fail though if the No.9 and No.10, in this case Defoe and Sigurdsson, stand around doing their best statue impersonations whilst the game passes them by.

 

[kaz Hirai]

don't know if dempsey can play as a wide forward but hopefully he can because you wont get any kind of attacking intelligence from aaron lennon. Would even play defoe there in this system, he isnt going to cross but shift and shoot would probably be more valuable down playing in the middle trying to lead the line, the old shift and shoot routine would probably be more effective

roll on scott parker returning also, relegate livermore back to the bench were he was effective last season, coming on for the last 10 mins as an extra body just to get in the way when we were holding onto the lead. And ideally a fully intergrated dembele and a fit ade will have us looking something like our old self

 

[Bing]

It is funny how quick 4-4-2 seems to have gone out of style.

I must say I have a soft spot for two physical CM's who can tackle alowing two wingers to bomb forward and attack with two up front....a big goal poacher and a deeper lying more creative forward who can still bag 15 goals a season.

For me thats the right set up but it appears utterly antiquated now and the game seems to have moved on.

Interestyl thats the system that Ramos had such great success at Seville with..he had nowhere near the raw material here to make that work...reckon if we had Lennon, Carrick, Poulsen and Bale in the middle with Defoe and Berbatov up front Ramos could've made more of a go at it...still thought he was a shit appointment and the wrong manager for us.

 

[hodsgod]

City use it well you need a player like Yaya Toure in the centre of the park to do both defend and make good foward runs .

There in also lies the problem, you need a player like Toure, he is a bloody good player and most teams don't have one as good in that position.

I don't see that much difference to Venables Christmas tree formation which is supposed to have a box to box midfielder and two that stay back.

433 was introduced by Chile in 1962 if I recall correctly, not that I saw them! Formations come and go, it's just a matter of time before it all changes again.

 

[DIEHARD]

I love 442 and you know what? our players do too. We went back to 442 for five minutes yesterday and we looked 100 times better (not sayin much though) than we did in the AVB tactics.

The players seem to understand 442 and I really enjoy 442.

 

[Warik]

The choice of player for the attacking midfielder behind the striker is also important in a 4-2-3-1. If you choose the wrong player or lack the type of player entirely that makes the system work then the whole system looks predictable and clunky. Bizarrely going into the summer Spurs had two such players in Modric and VdV who could play in the hole, but got rid of both of them and replaced them with two players in Sig and Dembele who I can't see being able to play the role. You need an Ozil, an Iniesta type really, with two wingers who are comfortable going inside or outside (as in, two footed). The system definitely works, and when it flows it is brilliant to watch, but when it doesn't flow it looks awful.

 

[tobi]

I think Dempsey can play as a wide forward, he'll attack the box consistently and won't get in the strikers way.

 

[Kingstheman]

Defensive, possession based play, hoping to win by single goals.

A defensive block of 6.

An attacking block of 4.

???

 

[tgd15]

Having an extra midfielder in there often gives you more control of the game and you can dictate the game.

THIS!! I've always been taught the game is won in the midfield, if your midfield has More men in it than the other team, you're going to win the possession game considering your passes will be shorter to make, in theory.

the second thing strategy wise would be to not waste men on defense. That's to say, if the other team has a front line of three, then don't put give in the back, just use a 4 man defense. That gives for one extra player on your third of the pitch.

What the 4231 gives you is the freedom to go from a 4231 to a 4213, depending on the other teams personnel. That's to say, if the other team only has a 541 for example, you'd push your two wide mids in the three all the way (their defense would still be over staffed, 5 vs 3), your two wide backs would push further up as wing backs would, and you'd keep the pressure in the midfield with up to a 7 on 4 advantage. The only two starting back on defense should be your 2 center backs with them both covering each other's asses in case the opposing striker gets past one or the other. it's a flexible system which allows for quick adjustments, and has the right personnel on the field for most adjustments. You must have a really good holding midfielder and a good player in the hole, with fast fullbacks who can push up quickly playing up the flanks along with the two wides up front. Arjen robben and philip lahm are a good example of this type of play

 

[Dan Yeats]

I've constructed various pieces of specialised software in order to conduct detailed analysis of football systems and set-ups. I've come to the conclusion that the key is to kick it between the sticks more times than the other lot.