Kaboul - Debate lifted from Rumours.

[BringBack_leGin]

1, Very debatable, Scholes may not run about like a headless chicken, but he's always 'there' that's why he has and continues to be up there with the best in the world.

2, Not really that important, but Gerrard also plays with Mascherano covering him

3, Lampard plays attacking midfield, he has Mikel or Makelele doing his donkey work


So until we get a Mascherano or Mikel, we will struggle in midfield

Agreed, but all the signs are that we are very much looking to sign a central tough man in the makalele or mikel or mascherano mould, and to me just one of those, not 2, but 1, will be enough to facilitate playing Modric in the middle.

and to the other dude... no i do not suggest that he will be better than gerrard lampard and scholes (though the hope is that he is of that quality), what i do suggest is that if they have all been successful in central midfield then there is every reason that he should be as well because he outworks and outfights all of them and they are all deemed more than hardworking enough.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Good post BBLG, but why do you think Modric would go from playing playmaking CM in a 4-4-2 to WF in a 4-3-3 with another playmaker brought in in CM? I would guess that we may be looking at Garcia as a WF candidate and the midfield 3 would come from Modric, new DM, Jenas, Zokora and Huddlestone. I certainly think that the players will need to be flexibile in terms of where they can play and Modric and Dos Santos both seem to have that.

I think moving Kaboul to DM would be a huge mistake. He still has a lot to prove to make it as a CB a position which he is certainly more suited to play than midfield.

what i mean is that the only way i can see modric playing wide is in a 433, not in a 442, because in a 433, like at barcelona with messi and ronnie, he would start further up the pitch which would more easily enable him to cut in and play through balls with his right, whereas on the flank in a 442 he is so far out of his natural position that he won't be able to dictate play as he is used to doing. watch him tonight for the croats, he's most likely be in the middle

 

[steve]

and to the other dude... no i do not suggest that he will be better than gerrard lampard and scholes (though the hope is that he is of that quality), what i do suggest is that if they have all been successful in central midfield then there is every reason that he should be as well because he outworks and outfights all of them and they are all deemed more than hardworking enough.

I prefer Steve

 

[Bobbins]

What did Kaboul actually say then?

I think if we got rid of him this summer we'd inevitabley see him develop into a top defender elsewhere. I doubt we'll give him the benefit of another season as we should.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

I prefer Steve

haha sorry i'm revising and spursing at the same time and didn't want to clog up the forum with multiple quotes but had forgotten who you were

 

[Limee]

watch him tonight for the croats, he's most likely be in the middle

I can't wait.

Midfield is certainly the current hot topic as evidenced by the ITK thread. It will be very interesting to see how we line up at the start of the season and how it develops during the course of the season.

 

[Chaplain]

What did Kaboul say? I've only heard the second- or third-hand rumours, so a link to the original article & translation would be greatly appreciated...I don't know where to search.

 

[SpurSince57]

This is the first, or rather the bit that caused all the hoo-hah, given to sofoot.com:

http://www.sofoot.com/article-105131-y-kaboul-entretien-sofoot.html

You were a first choice from the beginning of the season until the dismissal of Martin Jol. Since Juande Ramos took over, your playing time decreased, then simply disappeared. Did your Spanish coach explain the reason for his choices to you?

I played all the first part of season, but since the change of coach I haven't played. I didn't get an explanations for his decision. He doesn't speak, with anybody. Communication doesn't happen with him. He doesn't play me? It's his choice, I respect it. I'm a professional. I'm young, it's the first time this has happened to me in my career, but I'm not surprised because when you're a footballer you have to be prepared for that kind of thing, the good times and the bad times.

You started only two of the sixteen Premiership games played in 2008. Even Woodgate plays more than you… [Eek Perhaps the interviewer is confusing Woody with Dawson? :shrug:]

Yeah, but Ramos didn't really give me a chance. When a player doesn't have the confidence of his coach, there's nothing he can do on the pitch—and when a coach gives you his confidence, you let go of the handbrake and race away.

What are the differences between Ramos and Jol?

Tactically, things have changed a little bit. Yeah, perhaps. But when it comes to personality, there's no comparison. Martin Jol was a real character. For us, he was a father, whereas with Ramos, it's all tactics, period. Nothing more. In training, we do a lot of eleven against zero, and stuff on the blackboard to work on our progress with the ball [could be 'passing the ball']. Ramos introduced that, but nothing else. What saved our season was the Carling Cup. It's said that we won the Carling because Ramos arrived at the club, but it was nothing to do with him. We'd have won it with Martin Jol.

And this is the second, speaking to football.fr:

http://www.football.fr/fr/footballfr...uth_46170.html

Quote:
Football.fr: Younes, la saison se termine en Angleterre, quel regard portez-vous sur votre première année à l'étranger ?
Younes Kaboul: Je dresse un bilan globalement positif de ma première saison à Tottenham. J'étais venu ici pour rejoindre une équipe particulièrement ambitieuse, qui souhaitait intégrer le quatuor de tête de la Premier League, mais tout ne s'est pas passé comme on l'espérait. De mon côté, j'ai joué 31 matches toutes compétitions confondues, j'ai participé à l'aventure en Coupe de l'UEFA, et surtout j'ai beaucoup appris de cette première expérience en Angleterre.

A titre individuel, le départ de Martin Jol vous a fait du mal...

C'est certain, puisque c'est lui qui avait souhaité me recruter, malgré ce que certains
médias anglais ont tenté de faire, en m'utilisant comme intermédiaire dans une guerre imaginaire entre Jol et Damien Comolli, le manager des Spurs. Certains journalistes anglais ont raconté que Comolli, qui est Français, m'avait fait venir sans l'accord de Jol, ce qui est parfaitement faux puisque les deux se sont toujours très bien entendus au sujet du recrutement. Martin Jol m'avait supervisé durant les deux derniers mois de la saison 2006-2007 avant de me faire signer à Tottenham. L'arrivée de Juande Ramos a tout changé...

"Ramos ne me fait pas confiance"

Que s'est-il passé précisément ?
Eh bien Juande Ramos ne me fait pas confiance, tout simplement. A partir de là, lorsque vous n'avez pas la confiance de votre entraîneur, les choses ne peuvent pas se passer idéalement dans un club...
Younes, now the English season has finished, how do you rate your first year abroad?
Overall, I can make a very positive assessment of my first season with Tottenham. I came here to join a particularly ambitious team which wished to break into the quartet at the head of the EPL, but things didn't go as we'd hoped. For my part, I played 31 matches in all competitions and took part in our UEFA Cup adventure. I've certainly learned a lot from this first year's experience in England.


For you as an individual, Martin Jol's departure was bad news...
Absolutely, since he was the one who wanted to sign me, in spite of what sections of the English media tried to do, which was to use me as the subject of an imaginary war between Jol and Damien Comolli. Some English journalists said that Comolli, who is French, had signed me without Jol's agreement, but that is completely false, since the pair of them always got along very well on the matter of recruitment. Martin Jol watched me during the last two months of the 2006-2007 season before bringing me to Tottenham. With Juande Ramos' arrival, all that changed. He doesn't trust me.

What happened, precisely?
Ramos has no confidence in me, simple as that. And when you don't have your coach's confidence, it's hardly an ideal situation at a club...

Quote:
De fait, votre avenir semble bouché à Tottenham, allez-vous quitter le club ?

Oui, il n'y a aucune autre solution. Comme je vous le disais, j'ai énormément appris de cette saison, j'ai beaucoup progressé, principalement dans l'appréhension des matches et en terme de maturité. Je ne veux pas perdre mon temps alors je veux quitter Tottenham.

Pour aller où ?
J'ai plusieurs opportunités et cela me fait particulièrement plaisir. Il existe des contacts avec des clubs français comme depuis plusieurs saisons. L'Olympique Lyonnais voulait notamment me prendre l'hiver dernier avant de se tourner vers Jean-Alain Boumsong... Il y a aussi eu le PSG, puis l'OM. Mon agent a également reçu des propositions de Hambourg, en Allemagne. Mais je dois vous avouer que ma grande priorité aujourd'hui, c'est de rester en Angleterre, un championnat très excitant où les meilleurs joueurs du monde évoluent. Newcastle s'intéresse à moi, je ne le nie pas, mais je souhaite rejoindre Portsmouth.

"Portsmouth et Tottenham doivent négocier"

Votre choix est-il arrêté ?
A l'heure qu'il est, oui, mon choix est fait. Portsmouth est une équipe très ambitieuse, qui aura bientôt un centre d'entraînement à la pointe de la technologie moderne et qui cherche à construire une équipe sur le long terme. Les derniers recrutements effectués (Lassana Diarra, Jermaine Defoe, Milan Baros, John Utaka ou Sulley Ali Muntari) prouvent leur volonté de venir bousculer l'ordre établi depuis quelques saisons dans le championnat d'Angleterre. De plus, Harry Redknapp, qui est là depuis 2005, est un entraîneur symbole de stabilité et ça me convient tout à fait.

Peut-on dire aujourd'hui que vous évoluerez à Portsmouth l'an prochain ?
Malheureusement non. Moi, je souhaite aller là-bas, mais les deux clubs doivent négocier et se mettre d'accord sur une indemnité de transfert. Ce n'est pas encore gagné... Mon contrat avec les Spurs se termine en 2012 donc chacun sait à quoi s'en tenir. Mon agent connaît ma position et il travaille en ce sens. Si ça ne marche pas avec Portsmouth, j'aviserai en temps voulu.

It would seem you have no future at Tottenham. Will you leave the club?
Yes, there is no other solution. As I said to you, I've learned a great deal from this season. I've progressed a lot, mainly in my reading [best I could do with that] of the game and in terms of maturity. I don't want to waste my time, and so I want to leave Tottenham.

To go where?
I've got several options, which is really pleasing for me. There have been contacts from French clubs for several seasons. In particular, Lyon wanted to sign me last winter before turning to Jean-Alain Boumsong. There was also interest from PSG and Marseille. My agent also had an offer from Hamburg. But I've got to say to you that my biggest priority today is to remain in England, where you have a very exciting championship to which the best players of the world move. Newcastle are interested in me, I don't deny it, but I want to join Portsmouth. Portsmouth and Tottenham must negotiate.

Is your mind made up?
Right now, yes, my mind is made up. Portsmouth are a very ambitious club. They'll soon have soon have an ultra-modern training centre and they're looking to build long-term. Their most recent signings (Lassana Diarra, Jermaine Defoe, Milan Baros, John Utaka and Sulley Ali Muntari) have proven they want to challenge the order established in the championship over the last few seasons. Moreover, Harry Redknapp, who's been there since 2005, is a manager who symbolises stability, and that's something really important to me.

Can you say today that you'll be at Portsmouth next season?
Unfortunately not. Me, I want to be there, but the clubs have to negotiate and agree on a transfer fee. They haven't done that yet. My contract with Spurs finishes in 2012, so both sides know what's what. My agent knows my position and is trying to push matters along. If things don't work out with Portsmouth, he'll let me know at the appropriate time.

I wouldn't pretend that either translation is 100% idiomatic, but I don't think they're too far off, either.

 

[SpurSince57]

I didn't say it was a fabrication, but the literal translation was nothing to piss our pants over. A 20yo player villified and subbed half way through games by Ramos who barely got a look in after that. He could have said alot worse and I wouldn't havebeen surprised. There was even a sideways compliment for Ramos in there.

I personally like the fact that Ramos has the bollocks to make changes for the team good regardless of the delicate sensibilities of the the players or some need to be seen as a populist (which as you know was one of Jol's failings) but the decision to remove Kaboul at West Ham and Birmingham were - for me - both on the very harsh side, particularly Bham.

It is already clear that Kaboul has the potential to be a geniune football playing CB. His cause was done no favours at all by the ridiculous dropping of Rocha at the start of the season and Jol's insistance on playing the hapless Dawson as is partner and a couple of times compounding it by putting Bale the other side (who is actually worse LB than Kaboul is CB).

Fisrt season, new country, much harder league, slotting into a terrible defence, awful goalkeeper, 20 years old. You could hardly say Kaboul was given an easy baptism could you.

I don't know whether he will fulfill his potenial but, on the basis of what we have seen he deserves a much fairer crack.

No, ShayLaB did. But you don't want a literal translation. That's what you get from Babelfish, which is what makes it such a hoot (and why Miles Kington made a packet with his Franglais books). What you want is an idiomatic one.

Ramos had even less confidence in Rocha than Jol did, so that makes it two coaches you're disagreeing with. (Although I'd agree that he didn't seem to do much wrong in the games he played, apart from the comedy second goal against Everton, which was just one of those shit happens things.) As far as Bale at LB goes, wasn't Lee out with a knock for the Arsenal game? Also, Ramos immediately started Bale at LB, although it has to be said his decision to play anyone but Lee there was pretty eccentric.

I wouldn't disagree in the slightest with your belief that Kaboul has it in him to be a very good CB indeed, but he'll have had a lot of explaining to do. Also, why is he so hot on Pompey? Has someone been talking to him?

 

[PT]

I wouldn't disagree in the slightest with your belief that Kaboul has it in him to be a very good CB indeed, but he'll have had a lot of explaining to do. Also, why is he so hot on Pompey? Has someone been talking to him?

At some point the French Connection at Portsmouth will most probably have played a role in nudging and winking at Kaboul. Diarra and Distin, on instruction from management would have had opportunities, no doubt. Also, although I'm not clued up on agent manoueverings, there could well have been some informal passing of information concerning potential availability.

It's then down to whether our Club has the desire to offload, or whether they wrap an arm around him and re-persuade the French U-21 Captain that his future is at White Hart Lane.

 

[Locotoro]

My spoken French isn't anywhere near as fluent as I'd like to be, but I read it pretty well. I didn't plough through fucking Corneille and Racine for nothing.

How unfortunate for you...

 

[spurious1]

Perhaps the most interesting point of that (second) interview is that one might wish that it will put to bed, once and for all the oft-repeated myth that there were "Jol-players" and "Comolli-players".

Every single believable quote, here from Kaboul, but elsewhere from Jol himself (he said something like he had no disagreements with Comolli, just they didn't seem to have a warm personal relationship), as well as from Levy, describe exactly the same procedure for recruiting players, namely the coach identifying needs, Comolli scouting candidates, and the lot of them then deciding together. And in spite of lots of crap journalism and discussion board affirmations, there is no evidence that this is not exactly what happens.

As for the (possible) lack of personal chemistry between Jol and Comolli, I would assume it will be fine between Ramos and Comolli, they both seem to be rather emotionless technocrat types (as seems to be Levy, as well).

And by the way I speak fluent French, and SS57's translation is very accurate. Kaboul's comments about Ramos are unambiguously negative - would be hard to spin it any other way. On the other hand they are not as bad as they could be.

 

[ShayLaB]

No, ShayLaB did. But you don't want a literal translation.

What I meant was a translation that of an interview appeared a while back...and everyone slated Kaboul based on he had said. A day or two later someone else from these forums also translated it and the tone was very different.

 

[ShayLaB]

Someone else posted this a few months ago but in my haste to cut and paste I appear to have lost thier identity so apologies...everyting beyond this point comes from someone else.


thanks to Locotoro, we can see the actual interview but translated, as opposed to several cut-and-paste quotes which completely change how he comes across. he's actually a lot more diplomatic and in no way disrespectful.
Thank you Locotoro:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locotoro
I love it how this is automatically believable. Setenta has a proven track record of writing absolute crap.

The actual attempted translation of this interview is as follows:

You were born at Saint-Julien-in-Genevese, it is almost in Switzerland (with ten kilometers of the border). Do you think that this summer, you will be also "almost in Switzerland"?
No, I do not think so... I think least of all of that. In this moment, it is especially my situation in club of which I think: I try to work, not to slacken myself. In any event, Domenech does not like the ex-defenders of Auxerre. He leaves Boumsong and Mexès and they are experienced, no? No, that doesnt need talking of. Each one has its path. It is not because Mexès and Boumsong do not play that there will be never old player of Auxerre in team of France.
There is no problem... With two games left of the end of the championship, Tottenham is the 4th best attacking of the League (65 goals), in front of Chelsea and Liverpool in particular. Concurrently to that, Spurs have the 3rd most goals conceded (59 goals). To play well in the shirt of Spurs, it is necessary to be assailing?
It is sure, one spent one difficult season. There were not badly marked goals, but it is clear that one took some too much. More half of the goals were registered on freekicks. Thus here, the spectator is not bored, but for us, that annoys us a little since these errors cost us badly in points.
You were first choice at the beginning of season until the dismissal of Martin Jol. Since the arrival of Juande Ramos, your time of play decreased, then straightforwardly disappeared. Did your Spanish coach explain you the reasons of its choices?
I played all the first part of season and since the change of trainer, I do not play. I did not have explanations of his share. He does not speak, with anybody. It is his choice, I respect it, I am professional. I am young, it is the first time that this comes to me in my career, but I am not surprised because when one is a footballer, one must be prepared with that, the goods and the bad times.
You played only twice over the sixteen matches of championship in 2008. Even Woodgate plays more than you...
Ramos has not given me my chance yet. When a player does not feel the confidence of his trainer, it can be difficult. But when a trainer gives you his confidence, you can show yourself and be brave and accelarate.
Which are the differences between Ramos and Jol?
Tactically, that changed a little perhaps. Then, on the level of the personality, they are completely different. Martin Jol was a character. For us he was like a father, whereas Ramos, concentrates on the the tactics. With the conviction, he practices many of eleven against zeros on the blackboard and measures our progression with the ball. Ramos has brought that if anything. The season has been saved by the Carling Cup. Its said that one gained Carling Cup because Ramos arrived at the club, but that may not be true. One may have still gained it with Martin Jol.
For your first season abroad, you learnt what others learn in ten years of career: cup holder, change of trainer, victory over best of the League, time on the bench, etc. How do you feel you today?
I learned this season much. All that occurred me hardened on the level of the play but especially on the level of my personality. While arriving, I proved to the trainer and with the club that I was able to raise myself on another level. After, with the change of coach, I answered the call when one called upon me, either by giving playing well defensively, or by scoring goals (4 this season). At the end, I never lowered my arms, therefore i've to nothing regret.
What is harder to train with this season: quick feet of Keane or large contributions of Berbatov?
The two players are complementary, it is undeniable. There is of them one which makes the play and the other which finishes. When one plays every day in the season with guys like that, it is clear that defensively, one can only progress.
Who is the least fashionable player of Tottenham?
Jamie O' Hara. He gets dressed traditional, a little pépère(preppy) one will say.
Which music one listens in the dressing room of Spurs?
US Rap!
Who is the most underrated player of Premier League who has smallest buzz compared to their real level?
There are many underestimated players, but I will say a guy who plays with me: Steed Malbranque. yes, he played seven years in England, it is a player who is not recognized at all in France, and yet he would deserve it. When you see the matches that he plays here, you understand quickly why he is the darling of the club.
You watch the matches of Ligue 1?
Of course, every weekend. In fact, I look at all, of the matches of Saturday at 17h until that of 20h55 Sunday. I acknowledge that I start to miss the championship of France a little bit. When one looks at that, one wants to go back there. But afterwards, when one steps out in the stadiums here (in England, note) one does not want more to leave.
what are your plans?
I have trained one month and I have played well... I am involved well as it is necessary, I am always ready, I redouble my efforts with the remainder of the season. Next season, we will see that this summer.

Puts a slightly different spin on what he has said and if I say so very diplomatic.
- Jol was very friendly.
- ramos is different, very tactical
- Not wanting to take any credit away from Jol
- Has to wait for his chance
- misses france, but enjoys england
- Will train harder to push himslef in the first team

 

[ShayLaB]

Journalists make up crap all time...we see it every day in relation to transfer rumours. Just because it appears in a foreign paper doesn't make it inheritantly more reliable that a British paper. It only takes a small change of emphasis to change the entire meaning.

If a story appears in the French version of the News of the World it doesn't mean it is not subject to the same level of journalistic distortion that goes on here.

 

[Blotto]

Fucking Racine. I feel your pain, 57. However I fail to see how these interviews will make much of difference--especially the first one which is absolutely harmless, IMHO. Do we expect our management to act like petulant children when a player cocks up (granted rather publicly)? Kaboul was angry, or frustrated but he never seems to slate Ramos--does he ever say that Ramos is a bad manager? A bad person? Has a small penis? Where are the shocking insults that sent Wendy/Gus/DC/Levy into such a furry that they decided that Kaboul must be transfered at all costs--and perhaps made them hire some goons to break his legs? I see nothing of the sort...fucking Mt. Everest is being made of this molehill.

It seems now that the talk (if the ITKS are to be believed) is of loans and not transfers, perhaps despite all the pain and distress caused by that monster Kaboul in his interviews with French lad mags he has been forgiven...?

 

[muffwah]

I think that with regard to Kaboul, this site is beginning to write the guy off as we did Ghaly - the latest whipping boy to satiate the masses.

Kaboul is early twenties - one season in to one of the fastest leagues in Europe and looking to adapt to club, country and football style. He was captain of his country (France) at under-21 level and frankly deserves a stay of execution if only so we don't move on to the next unfortunate soul.

here here mate, it's absolute bollocks

 

[SpurSince57]

Fucking Racine. I feel your pain, 57. However I fail to see how these interviews will make much of difference--especially the first one which is absolutely harmless, IMHO. Do we expect our management to act like petulant children when a player cocks up (granted rather publicly)? Kaboul was angry, or frustrated but he never seems to slate Ramos--does he ever say that Ramos is a bad manager? A bad person? Has a small penis? Where are the shocking insults that sent Wendy/Gus/DC/Levy into such a furry that they decided that Kaboul must be transfered at all costs--and perhaps made them hire some goons to break his legs? I see nothing of the sort...fucking Mt. Everest is being made of this molehill.

It seems now that the talk (if the ITKS are to be believed) is of loans and not transfers, perhaps despite all the pain and distress caused by that monster Kaboul in his interviews with French lad mags he has been forgiven...?

Well, it really depends on how he's responded to the bollockings he'll most certainly have had. At best, Ramos will just laugh it off as the blatherings of a frustrated and probably not very bright youngster. I wouldn't dismiss the possibility entirely, though—after all, Wenger offloaded Diarra, who'd made no such public statements, and Ferguson's hardly hung around when it comes to wiping out dissent. It's less what was said, more the departure from the party line—after all, Donna Cullen's kept things as much 'on-message' as the Pyongyang People's Daily and New 'Labour'.

If anything, the later interview is more interesting/worrying as it suggests very strongly that someone's been attempting to turn Kaboul's head with tales of streets paved with gold down on the south coast.