Kaboul - Debate lifted from Rumours.

[SpurSince57]

Kaboul doesn't have the positional sense or discipline to function effectively as a CB, never mind a DM.

 

[PT]

I think that with regard to Kaboul, this site is beginning to write the guy off as we did Ghaly - the latest whipping boy to satiate the masses.

Kaboul is early twenties - one season in to one of the fastest leagues in Europe and looking to adapt to club, country and football style. He was captain of his country (France) at under-21 level and frankly deserves a stay of execution if only so we don't move on to the next unfortunate soul.

 

[SpurSince57]

I think that with regard to Kaboul, this site is beginning to write the guy off as we did Ghaly - the latest whipping boy to satiate the masses.

Kaboul is early twenties - one season in to one of the fastest leagues in Europe and looking to adapt to club, country and football style. He was captain of his country (France) at under-21 level and frankly deserves a stay of execution if only so we don't move on to the next unfortunate soul.

Saying he has poor positional sense and discipline is hardly writing him off. Unfortunately, for all his promise he's lacking in those departments, and I imagine that's why Ramos picked Dawson ahead of him over the latter part of the season. Despite Dawson's drawbacks, for the time being he does the basics of playing CB better. To suggest he could play at DM when he still hasn't found his feet at CB is ridiculous.

Jol and Comolli saw him as a great CB in a couple of seasons' time. I don't think too many people on here would disagree with that assessment. Unfortunately, he's rather blotted his copybook by slating Ramos and then fluttering his eyelashes at 'arry. If he's got a good line in grovelling apologies and convincing claims of temporary insanity he may save his bacon.

 

[PT]

The fact that Dawson saw out the season in the spare CB berth was most likely down to Ramos not suffering changing room tantrums. Robbo found out to his cost that talking back doesn't wash with the Boss and was left in the wilderness for a significant part of the season. If Kaboul had gone off on one in the privacy of the changing room, even before his bleating in the press, I guess we can presume or presume to guess that Ramos took the same hard line with the lad.

I would like to think that there is no ill feeling within camp, his stock remains in the "promising for the future" file, and that we'll see a stronger Kaboul next season.

 

[SpurSince57]

The interesting might-have-been for me is if we'd signed Distin as well last summer. I can't remember which game it was now, but it was one of those where Chimbo (or possibly Zoko) was drafted in at CB; several people remarked in the match thread how he was continually talking to Kaboul, calming him down, telling him what to do, and how Kaboul had one of his best games as a result. Having a quality, French-speaking CB with several seasons' experience in the EPL alongside him from the off could have worked wonders.

Jol obviously did have a soft spot for Daws, but for me he just failed to rise to the occasion and take the lead in defence early season. I've no idea what Kaboul's English is like, but I'll take a flying guess that Dawson's French is non-existent.

Wisdom after the event is great, isn't it?

 

[ShayLaB]

Saying he has poor positional sense and discipline is hardly writing him off. Unfortunately, for all his promise he's lacking in those departments, and I imagine that's why Ramos picked Dawson ahead of him over the latter part of the season. Despite Dawson's drawbacks, for the time being he does the basics of playing CB better. To suggest he could play at DM when he still hasn't found his feet at CB is ridiculous.

Jol and Comolli saw him as a great CB in a couple of seasons' time. I don't think too many people on here would disagree with that assessment. Unfortunately, he's rather blotted his copybook by slating Ramos and then fluttering his eyelashes at 'arry. If he's got a good line in grovelling apologies and convincing claims of temporary insanity he may save his bacon.

He didn't. An interview in France was 'translated' by an English journalist with predictable results. Someone from SC got hold of the original transcript and translated again. He did not slate Ramos but the impression seems to have stuck. I used to think the players saying they were misquoted was just an attempt to back-track...but having seen how it cam happen I am more inclined to doubt the translation.

 

[spurslenny]

i'm gonna stick my neck out and hazard that guess that Kaboul + KPB will both be at spurs next season

 

[SpurSince57]

He didn't. An interview in France was 'translated' by an English journalist with predictable results. Someone from SC got hold of the original transcript and translated again. He did not slate Ramos but the impression seems to have stuck. I used to think the players saying they were misquoted was just an attempt to back-track...but having seen how it cam happen I am more inclined to doubt the translation.

Sorry, but the original translation was very close—a lot closer than the one offered on SC. That's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact; although translation isn't a precise science, 'rien' has just one meaning, it isn't complimentary, and it was used of Ramos several times.

My spoken French isn't anywhere near as fluent as I'd like to be, but I read it pretty well. I didn't plough through fucking Corneille and Racine for nothing.

 

[milkman]

i'm gonna stick my neck out and hazard that guess that Kaboul + KPB will both be at spurs next season

possibly both out on loan?

 

[BringBack_leGin]

i would be annoyed with the club for allowing KPB or Kaboul to leave as right now neither will even be worth half of what we paid. Loan them out to lower prem clubs, if they do well and we like them enough to give them more responsibility, bring them back, if they do well but not enough to convince us, sell them at a good value, and if they don't do well, at least its for someone else and not for us.

People keep making a couple of mistakes. First, they insist that Modric is too lightweight for the centre in a 442 so they decide that he's going to be on the wing. This boy does not get pushed off the ball without being fouled, and he makes space out of nothing wherever he is on the pitc, no matter how congested. He can more than hack it in the middle, and the fact that he works very hard to win the ball back when we're defending will only aid that. A lot of his best work is in helping out the defence by a) making himself available deep and b) if the other team is near our box, hassling whoever is in possession.

He is a stronger, tougher, harder working customer than Paul Scholes ever was and Scholes was a mainstay in the best team in the country's centre in a 442 for a decade, and from a younger age than Modric is. I hear you say "but scholes had Keane", well clearly we are looking for a top DM ourselves so don't fret! And I couldn't give a rats arse about how much the premiership has changed, if at the age of 16 Fabregas was right in the middle of Arsenals 442 midfield then I'm pretty sure Modric once acclimatised will have no problem. Watch him tomorrow afternoon, please!

The second mistake is that in a 442 everyone seems to think Giovanni will be on the right. So let me get this straight, a manager who is known to love attacking width, who has won several trophies because of attacking width, and who intends to play fast counter attacking football as we did in glimpses last season, is going to have a left footer on the right and a right footer on the left in a 442, thus ensuring that everything our midfield ever does is right down the middle?

Just on a hunch, peoples thinky boxes are really not working.

Now, the only way, and just as someone who spends more of his life watching football than he does anything else, I think we will see Gio on the right, Modric on the left, and two new central mifielders coming in is if we play a 433 (or some similar derivation of it like 4231 etc etc etc) and therefore have the two of them much further up the pitch enabling them to much more easily cut in and play through balls to the one forward who would be on the pitch. If we did this, however, fully expect Jenas to still be in the team and the two new midfielders that are signed being one to anchor, and one to create. THe one to anchor, who knows, it could be anyone. The one to create... i would like a rejuvenated Deco, who after being rubbish all year was tonight an absolute maestro, destroying the turks and looking about a stone lighter as well. If he remains as he was tonight then he is still a great plamaker, and only 30. Big IF though.

However, I do not think Ramos is just going to abandon the wide 442 formation that has won him everything he has one, been within a game of winning la Liga and brought him all his reputation and success. That would be madness. He may tinker with other styles for certain occasions and situations, which is why the beauty of Gio and Luka's versatility and fluidity will be important, but I am completely sure that he will stick to playing a left on the left, and a righty on the right in a 442 with fast attacking overlapping fullbacks too. Modric is more than capable of playing in the middle in a 442, he is more than tough enough and to tell you the truth, I bet he stays on his feet more than Gerrard does and I bet he helps his defence more than Lampard does. He may be a playmaker, but he is a god damn feisty playmaker who can survive the tightest of situations and the hardest of kicks, and if he has the right general next to him, I am fully confident of seeing him dictating things from our heart with some beautiful flying wizards on either side.

I may well be wrong, but I think this is no less likely (in fact, clearly I think it is far more likely) than sticking him on the left wing.

 

[spurslenny]

i would be annoyed with the club for allowing KPB or Kaboul to leave as right now neither will even be worth half of what we paid. Loan them out to lower prem clubs, if they do well and we like them enough to give them more responsibility, bring them back, if they do well but not enough to convince us, sell them at a good value, and if they don't do well, at least its for someone else and not for us.

People keep making a couple of mistakes. First, they insist that Modric is too lightweight for the centre in a 442 so they decide that he's going to be on the wing. This boy does not get pushed off the ball without being fouled, and he makes space out of nothing wherever he is on the pitc, no matter how congested. He can more than hack it in the middle, and the fact that he works very hard to win the ball back when we're defending will only aid that. A lot of his best work is in helping out the defence by a) making himself available deep and b) if the other team is near our box, hassling whoever is in possession.

He is a stronger, tougher, harder working customer than Paul Scholes ever was and Scholes was a mainstay in the best team in the country's centre in a 442 for a decade, and from a younger age than Modric is. I hear you say "but scholes had Keane", well clearly we are looking for a top DM ourselves so don't fret! And I couldn't give a rats arse about how much the premiership has changed, if at the age of 16 Fabregas was right in the middle of Arsenals 442 midfield then I'm pretty sure Modric once acclimatised will have no problem. Watch him tomorrow afternoon, please!

The second mistake is that in a 442 everyone seems to think Giovanni will be on the right. So let me get this straight, a manager who is known to love attacking width, who has won several trophies because of attacking width, and who intends to play fast counter attacking football as we did in glimpses last season, is going to have a left footer on the right and a right footer on the left in a 442, thus ensuring that everything our midfield ever does is right down the middle?

Just on a hunch, peoples thinky boxes are really not working.

Now, the only way, and just as someone who spends more of his life watching football than he does anything else, I think we will see Gio on the right, Modric on the left, and two new central mifielders coming in is if we play a 433 (or some similar derivation of it like 4231 etc etc etc) and therefore have the two of them much further up the pitch enabling them to much more easily cut in and play through balls to the one forward who would be on the pitch. If we did this, however, fully expect Jenas to still be in the team and the two new midfielders that are signed being one to anchor, and one to create. THe one to anchor, who knows, it could be anyone. The one to create... i would like a rejuvenated Deco, who after being rubbish all year was tonight an absolute maestro, destroying the turks and looking about a stone lighter as well. If he remains as he was tonight then he is still a great plamaker, and only 30. Big IF though.

However, I do not think Ramos is just going to abandon the wide 442 formation that has won him everything he has one, been within a game of winning la Liga and brought him all his reputation and success. That would be madness. He may tinker with other styles for certain occasions and situations, which is why the beauty of Gio and Luka's versatility and fluidity will be important, but I am completely sure that he will stick to playing a left on the left, and a righty on the right in a 442 with fast attacking overlapping fullbacks too. Modric is more than capable of playing in the middle in a 442, he is more than tough enough and to tell you the truth, I bet he stays on his feet more than Gerrard does and I bet he helps his defence more than Lampard does. He may be a playmaker, but he is a god damn feisty playmaker who can survive the tightest of situations and the hardest of kicks, and if he has the right general next to him, I am fully confident of seeing him dictating things from our heart with some beautiful flying wizards on either side.

I may well be wrong, but I think this is no less likely (in fact, clearly I think it is far more likely) than sticking him on the left wing.

phew! finished it! :grin:
















re your post: its a possability

 

[steve]

He is a stronger, tougher, harder working customer than Paul Scholes ever was and Scholes was a mainstay in the best team in the country's centre in a 442 for a decade, and from a younger age than Modric is. Modric is more than capable of playing in the middle in a 442, he is more than tough enough and to tell you the truth, I bet he stays on his feet more than Gerrard does and I bet he helps his defence more than Lampard does.

Are you suggesting he is/will be a better player than these 3?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

The interesting might-have-been for me is if we'd signed Distin as well last summer. I can't remember which game it was now, but it was one of those where Chimbo (or possibly Zoko) was drafted in at CB; several people remarked in the match thread how he was continually talking to Kaboul, calming him down, telling him what to do, and how Kaboul had one of his best games as a result. Having a quality, French-speaking CB with several seasons' experience in the EPL alongside him from the off could have worked wonders.

Jol obviously did have a soft spot for Daws, but for me he just failed to rise to the occasion and take the lead in defence early season. I've no idea what Kaboul's English is like, but I'll take a flying guess that Dawson's French is non-existent.

Wisdom after the event is great, isn't it?

That was coincidentaly against Portsmouth. We inflicted one of their few home defeats and for the first time ever I heard Bagbus say "spurs deserved it". And having the french speaking and more mobile Zokora next to him Kaboul had probably his best game in a spurs shirt.

And I read that interview and there really wasn't fuck all in there to get excited about.

 

[Bingy]

YES, I fully agree BC....Kaboul, IF he has any sense, will get a LOT better this season....as his FrAnglais gets better. He is so well thought of in the French National setup and they do not tend to pick loosers! I sincerely hope and pray that the news paper article was utter fabrication and 'wishful dreaming' on the part of the Journo (A Scum fan no doubt!).
The dream is alive still and it gets better every minute of the day! COYS!

 

[SpurSince57]

Unfortunately the stories (there were two) weren't fabrications; they were interviews done in France. I've got to disagree with B-C; if I were Ramos I'd be bloody livid, and I doubt Comolli and Levy were too amused, either.

 

[PT]

I suppose some latitude may be given, taking in to account his age. David Bentley has used the press in the past to vent his private feelings and I guess after the event they probably wish the ground would open up. Who knows in this age of media but at the end of it all, if Kaboul goes we will probably spend another £6-8 million to replace him so maybe it is worth perserverence.

 

[Kendall]

He is a stronger, tougher, harder working customer than Paul Scholes ever was and Scholes was a mainstay in the best team in the country's centre in a 442 for a decade, and from a younger age than Modric is. I hear you say "but scholes had Keane", well clearly we are looking for a top DM ourselves so don't fret! And I couldn't give a rats arse about how much the premiership has changed, if at the age of 16 Fabregas was right in the middle of Arsenals 442 midfield then I'm pretty sure Modric once acclimatised will have no problem. Watch him tomorrow afternoon, please!

The second mistake is that in a 442 everyone seems to think Giovanni will be on the right. So let me get this straight, a manager who is known to love attacking width, who has won several trophies because of attacking width, and who intends to play fast counter attacking football as we did in glimpses last season, is going to have a left footer on the right and a right footer on the left in a 442, thus ensuring that everything our midfield ever does is right down the middle?

Just on a hunch, peoples thinky boxes are really not working.

Now, the only way, and just as someone who spends more of his life watching football than he does anything else, I think we will see Gio on the right, Modric on the left, and two new central mifielders coming in is if we play a 433 (or some similar derivation of it like 4231 etc etc etc) and therefore have the two of them much further up the pitch enabling them to much more easily cut in and play through balls to the one forward who would be on the pitch. If we did this, however, fully expect Jenas to still be in the team and the two new midfielders that are signed being one to anchor, and one to create. THe one to anchor, who knows, it could be anyone. The one to create... i would like a rejuvenated Deco, who after being rubbish all year was tonight an absolute maestro, destroying the turks and looking about a stone lighter as well. If he remains as he was tonight then he is still a great plamaker, and only 30. Big IF though.

However, I do not think Ramos is just going to abandon the wide 442 formation that has won him everything he has one, been within a game of winning la Liga and brought him all his reputation and success. That would be madness. He may tinker with other styles for certain occasions and situations, which is why the beauty of Gio and Luka's versatility and fluidity will be important, but I am completely sure that he will stick to playing a left on the left, and a righty on the right in a 442 with fast attacking overlapping fullbacks too. Modric is more than capable of playing in the middle in a 442, he is more than tough enough and to tell you the truth, I bet he stays on his feet more than Gerrard does and I bet he helps his defence more than Lampard does. He may be a playmaker, but he is a god damn feisty playmaker who can survive the tightest of situations and the hardest of kicks, and if he has the right general next to him, I am fully confident of seeing him dictating things from our heart with some beautiful flying wizards on either side.

I may well be wrong, but I think this is no less likely (in fact, clearly I think it is far more likely) than sticking him on the left wing.

1, Very debatable, Scholes may not run about like a headless chicken, but he's always 'there' that's why he has and continues to be up there with the best in the world.

2, Not really that important, but Gerrard also plays with Mascherano covering him

3, Lampard plays attacking midfield, he has Mikel or Makelele doing his donkey work


So until we get a Mascherano or Mikel, we will struggle in midfield

 

[Limee]

Good post BBLG, but why do you think Modric would go from playing playmaking CM in a 4-4-2 to WF in a 4-3-3 with another playmaker brought in in CM? I would guess that we may be looking at Garcia as a WF candidate and the midfield 3 would come from Modric, new DM, Jenas, Zokora and Huddlestone. I certainly think that the players will need to be flexibile in terms of where they can play and Modric and Dos Santos both seem to have that.

I think moving Kaboul to DM would be a huge mistake. He still has a lot to prove to make it as a CB a position which he is certainly more suited to play than midfield.

 

[DJS]

I'd like to see Spurs keep Kaboul as feel he needs time to adjust and will then be a fantastic centre back.

Also he only actually started alongside Woody once in a Eurpean game last season having a quick scan of Spurs Programme. Most of the time he lined up alongside Dawson who himself needs to be partner by either Woody or King to have a good game. As commented above when partnered alongside Zokora who he felt comfortable with he was good.

Unfortunately though he does seem to have an attitude problem reading his recent comments and after his verbal attack on Ramos I can't see him being retained...

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Unfortunately the stories (there were two) weren't fabrications; they were interviews done in France. I've got to disagree with B-C; if I were Ramos I'd be bloody livid, and I doubt Comolli and Levy were too amused, either.

I didn't say it was a fabrication, but the literal translation was nothing to piss our pants over. A 20yo player villified and subbed half way through games by Ramos who barely got a look in after that. He could have said alot worse and I wouldn't havebeen surprised. There was even a sideways compliment for Ramos in there.

I personally like the fact that Ramos has the bollocks to make changes for the team good regardless of the delicate sensibilities of the the players or some need to be seen as a populist (which as you know was one of Jol's failings) but the decision to remove Kaboul at West Ham and Birmingham were - for me - both on the very harsh side, particularly Bham.

It is already clear that Kaboul has the potential to be a geniune football playing CB. His cause was done no favours at all by the ridiculous dropping of Rocha at the start of the season and Jol's insistance on playing the hapless Dawson as is partner and a couple of times compounding it by putting Bale the other side (who is actually worse LB than Kaboul is CB).

Fisrt season, new country, much harder league, slotting into a terrible defence, awful goalkeeper, 20 years old. You could hardly say Kaboul was given an easy baptism could you.

I don't know whether he will fulfill his potenial but, on the basis of what we have seen he deserves a much fairer crack.