Our style of play

[lukespurs7]

Firstly this is no knee jerk after the result today but the performance and result has prompted me to start this thread as it's a topic people have been speaking about for a good while since Potch has been in charge.

That subject is our style of play. The positives since Potch has taken over are that our defence has clearly improved and very very rarely do teams hammer us or even beat us by 2 goals, that platform is good because it means we're usually in with a chance of at least a draw in most matches. This style and defence is for two reasons, firstly we have some quality defenders in the Belgian duo, 2 quality fb'S and lloris + wanyama in front shielding. The 2nd reason is because we tend to not let the opponents have much of the ball and a lot of our possession is with our back 4 and GK and in our own half.

Negatives of this system are that we rely very heavily on the full backs for width and we are often very ponderous in attack.

Ok we thrashed Swansea 5-0 and when we get our high press going like in the first half away to Chelsea or away to stoke this year we play some very nice football, but if we don't get this going we are slow, ponderous, negative and predictable and dare is say too risky and overplaying at the back, teams press us high like
Man.utd did today at the right times and cut us apart.

The thing is the way we play is probably a good way to play given than we don't have a ton of quality attacking options and also we really lack paddy quality attacking players. Over the history of the PL weve been more a gung ho team with little steel or defensive structure. We won games often due to some individual moments of skill say from a ginola or berbatov but the team as a whole were not good enough. Also away to the 'big' teams traditionally we don't just lose we have often been hammered, sometimes by Arsenal and regularly by man.u and Chelsea. Occasionally we score early and start well but often we end up losing 3/4-1 as the oppositions quality shines through.

Then there were the AVB days where we just got absolutely shat on by man.city and Liverpool for example 4/5-0 which was really embarrassing.

So while we now have the so called 'best defence' I also don't feel we offer too much of a threat going forwards and need to be very clinical otherwise we don't get a result.

Is this due to our style of play being a little negative? Is it because we lack pace? Are our attacking players just not good enough?

I often now crave for 2 up front or 3 or just a more exciting spurs like team but then we'd probably not have as good a defence.

Phil Neville mabye summed it up that we lack that game changing player who can win a game or take a player on the likes of: Hazard,Pedro,Mikatayren,Pogba,Sanchez,Walcott,Coutiniho,Mane,De Bruyne,Sterling,Toure,Silva,Payet etc!!! Basically a Bale!

So does Potch need to change our style slightly for us to be a bit more positive or do we just need to sign some better attacking players like we tried to do in the summer but failed hugely.

Still positive about where we are going as a club but right now I see us finishing 6th and after our dizzy heights of last season and seeing Chelsea and Arsenal doing so well it's a little depressing.

Let's hope we get a good couple of wins over Xmas now as we really have to in order to stay in touch and hopefully the top6 will drop a few more points.

I feel like we don't do enough daring or doing in our play but perhaps it's not potchs fault but we just need to recruit better. Heck even Zaha would've improved us going forward.

COYS.

 

[idontgetit]

The problem is the style only works when everyone's on the same page, which is going forward on the front foot and out for the kill. It's super effective when done wright but if just a few of the players aren't on that wavelength it can go horribly wrong. E.g if the forwards get lazy and stop pressing giving the opposition time to pick passes then our high backline is vulnerable. If the defence sits too deep while the forwards press it opens up space between the lines. Usually the later is the problem with us and it happens when there's a change in the flow of the game, for example when we go ahead and are not sure whether to sick or twist or when our defence gets a scare and feels shakey.

Once the system breaks down the fullbacks no longer offer width or contribute in midfield meaning we can't dominate the game and have to play through the middle. We no longer have a solid base so the attacking players stop making attacking runs past the oppo backline, which leaves Kane easy to mark out of the game. So we end up with either gaps between our lines or an exposed high back line and when we play the ball forward we do it slowly through a congested center pitch with no width or movement behind the opposition to aim at.

That's why Dier is so important because he reads the game so well at DM and everyone trusts him to cover properly, meaning everyone can be on the front foot and out for the kill. Dembele is so important because he can simply boss the midfield on his own while Dier drops deeper, and it's always safe to give him the ball. Alderweireld and Vertonghen are so important because their passing offsets the weakness of Dembele and Dier's passing, they can bypass the midfield and get it straight to the forwards. Rose and Walker are so important to it because they're awesome but also because they're outrageously good athletes and can get up and down the wings all day. Everyone else is pretty much plug and play, those five are essential to the system though. Dembele could be swapped out for another CM against softer midfields. You could make arguments for Lamela's pressing being essential but really the real core of it all is the is a quality back 3, wingbacks and a classy beast of a CM. You can put whatever combo of attackers in front of that (so long as they press off the ball) and the system will look decent.

This season we've had Alderweireld and Dembele injured and Dier moved from DM. 3 out of the core 5 than enable the style of play affected. That's why we've not played so well as a team and then on top of that Eriksen and Kane were off form for the start of the season and Kane also spent time out.

 

[lukespurs7]

The problem is the style only works when everyone's on the same page, which is going forward on the front foot and out for the kill. It's super effective when done wright but if just a few of the players aren't on that wavelength it can go horribly wrong. E.g if the forwards get lazy and stop pressing giving the opposition time to pick passes then our high backline is vulnerable. If the defence sits too deep while the forwards press it opens up space between the lines. Usually the later is the problem with us and it happens when there's a change in the flow of the game, for example when we go ahead and are not sure whether to sick or twist or when our defence gets a scare and feels shakey.

Once the system breaks down the fullbacks no longer offer width or contribute in midfield meaning we can't dominate the game and have to play through the middle. We no longer have a solid base so the attacking players stop making attacking runs past the oppo backline, which leaves Kane easy to mark out of the game. So we end up with either gaps between our lines or an exposed high back line and when we play the ball forward we do it slowly through a congested center pitch with no width or movement behind the opposition to aim at.

That's why Dier is so important because he reads the game so well at DM and everyone trusts him to cover properly, meaning everyone can be on the front foot and out for the kill. Dembele is so important because he can simply boss the midfield on his own while Dier drops deeper, and it's always safe to give him the ball. Alderweireld and Vertonghen are so important because their passing offsets the weakness of Dembele and Dier's passing, they can bypass the midfield and get it straight to the forwards. Rose and Walker are so important to it because they're awesome but also because they're outrageously good athletes and can get up and down the wings all day. Everyone else is pretty much plug and play, those five are essential to the system though. Dembele could be swapped out for another CM against softer midfields. You could make arguments for Lamela's pressing being essential but really the real core of it all is the is a quality back 3, wingbacks and a classy beast of a CM. You can put whatever combo of attackers in front of that (so long as they press off the ball) and the system will look decent.

Why do we struggle to score against the better teams?

 

[Ribble]

I don't think that we lack game changers as much as the ones we do have are quite subdued so far this season. Dembele beats players for fun but is playing well within himself at the moment, Alli is having the difficult second season which many young players do and Eriksen has been very up and down in terms of form, partly I think because he needs players around him to be threatening too so he can find space to work. Unfortunately I'm not sure how you combat all that really, especially with Lamela away at the moment too. Winks coming through seems to be a breath of fresh air but he can't be expected to turn the team around single handed, really is too bad Pritchard decided to take his chances elsewhere as we could probably do with someone like him to come in right now.

 

[idontgetit]

Why do we struggle to score against the better teams?

They have the quality to interrupt our flow and stop us really getting in to gear. I think we proved last year we can score against these teams easy enough, we're just not playing to our potential. To break teams down you have to get enough players making runs on their last line of defence and we've been too disjointed this season to do that regularly enough. When we get back to the point of every player knowing exactly what their team mates are doing and thinking and moving forward as a unit we'll start blowing teams away. Hopefully haha.

The way we play requires a certain critical mass. Enough players pressing. Enough players making dangerous runs. Enough classy ball players linking up in the same areas. We were slightly short of that today.

 

[ItsBoris]

I think it's a tradeoff between defense and attack. The more bodies you throw forward in an attack, the more chance you have both to score and concede. Pretty simple. But what makes a team improve? Imo, playing too conservatively means that players are too infrequently in attacking positions and too frequently comfortable defensively to make much progress as a team in either area. The more a team attacks and the more a defense is forced to defend the better they get at doing each I think.

 

[@Bobby__Lucky]

I would like a more Maverick approach too.

Sometimes I think something somewhere is too complicated in the eyes of the players. Agreed we don't really have world beaters in our AM options. Eriksen and Alli are very inconsistent and nowhere near Ozil/Hazard level regardless. However we can be very effective at times. Notwithstanding sometimes we seem so stagnant and confused. We certainly seem the most attractive and also penetrative with the high press. But we really are not seeing it.

Things have been better since Kane's return, more movement in attacking third.

A special player probably would improve us, but movement and improved tactical approach wouldn't go amiss either.

 

[millsey]

One thing I certainly can't stand, is this passing backwards and back to Lloris. How many touches does he have a game? We are forever passing between Lloris and Vertonghan. I'd love to play us at the mo as we are just so predictable

 

[ajspurs]

One thing I certainly can't stand, is this passing backwards and back to Lloris. How many touches does he have a game? We are forever passing between Lloris and Vertonghan. I'd love to play us at the mo as we are just so predictable

Even in yesterdays game there was a time from the goal kick where Lloris passed it to Wanyama who was just outside our box in a central position but had 2 United players right in front of him so he plays it to the left where Vertonghen was who is now squeezed in the corner by the corner flag and the only viable option from then is to hoof it forward and I mean, what is the point. Putting ourselves under pressure for no reason. Surely Lloris could see Wanyama had nowhere to really go. I can't stand all the passing out from the back myself. We tend to not do much when in possession of the ball anyway so it all feels a bit unnecessary to go through all that effort and risk.

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

Poch schools these players like we are a mid-table Spanish league side.

Ticki-taki going nowhere football with little end product. Been like that last season and all of this one.

4-2-3-1 system with a predictable third three that has no invention, pace or strength. Three very much of a muchness players that any decent side can suss out a after the first quarter of a game.

 

[glacierSpurs]

I, and some others here as well, were crying for a proper DM before the start of last season as I think most see that as a missing piece of our puzzle.. reiterating the role again, when playing effectively, this DM can protect our CBs, forming really a 3-man defence before our FBs rushed back on a defensive play.. on an offensive play, he serves as a deep anchor/pivot for balls to ping around to allow the CM2 to bring the ball forward quickly.. simply, a disciplined DM will just do all the dirty work, leaving others no need to worry about any sudden lapses, as the DM is the first wall before reaching our second wall in the CBs.. the rest of the midfielders have more freedom to do what they are best at doing, to attack..

Dier was the DM then.. and he surpassed all expectations throughout the last season and formed a wonderful partnership of strength and discipline with Dembele.. and so I thought we really have a proper DM who will only get better with age..

this season came Wanyama... he is a beast no doubt.. but my problem with him is he forayed forward too much, leaving our centre very very exposed.. furthermore, he is not a ball-passer like Toby and Dier can in spreading the play quickly.. short sideway passes need our forward midfielders to come nearer to the centre, stretching our final third distance.. him going forward revert back to the problem of our centre very exposed..

it will take a very long time for whoever playing beside him to have that understanding and partnership to work out the balance between them in going forward and back interchangeably.. unless he can be really discipline like Dier, if not his presence in CM is affecting the whole system of play, IMHO...

I am starting to think it is no coincidence our AM3 all are beginning to look so poor and seemingly out of form.. seriously it cannot be progressively all at once.. I am not going to look at the poor service to our strikers and blame these AM3 anymore.. because the problem seems to be from the service they get from CM..

 

[YiddoTom90]

Was boring and stale till united scored, then we wake up, play well for ten mins, then sideways passing again, we lack world class players towards the front end of the pitch.

 

[stevensthfc]

Yesterday was the reason I couldn't get excited about the Swansea and CSKA results. We're fucking dire to watch in an attacking sense. If you're a decent team all you have to do is concede possession and counter when we make a mistake faffing about with it.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Whenever I see a thread start with "I'm not knee jerking, but..."

 

[DEFchenkOE]

I think Alli and Eriksen are often confused about their roles. Son plays ok wide left, I know he is a bit inconsistent but at least he has a little trick and can go past a man now and then. I then think we need Eriksen or Alli in the no10 position but not both of them occupying the other 2 slots in the AM 3. I think they just get in each others way. The problem is we don't have anyone that can play on the right. I feel that we're far too reliant on our fullbacks given us width, and we need to get our attacking midfielders to start providing from out wide instead. With the fullbacks just offering support.

Once Utd went a goal up yesterday it was obvious we wasn't going to win the game and the draw was the best we could hope for, and maybe via a pen. I don't think we looked like scoring from open play at all and it's been a problem throughout this season in the league and CL.

 

[CowInAComa]

Firstly this is no knee jerk after the result today but the performance and result has prompted me to start this thread as it's a topic people have been speaking about for a good while since Potch has been in charge.

That subject is our style of play. The positives since Potch has taken over are that our defence has clearly improved and very very rarely do teams hammer us or even beat us by 2 goals, that platform is good because it means we're usually in with a chance of at least a draw in most matches. This style and defence is for two reasons, firstly we have some quality defenders in the Belgian duo, 2 quality fb'S and lloris + wanyama in front shielding. The 2nd reason is because we tend to not let the opponents have much of the ball and a lot of our possession is with our back 4 and GK and in our own half.

Negatives of this system are that we rely very heavily on the full backs for width and we are often very ponderous in attack.

Ok we thrashed Swansea 5-0 and when we get our high press going like in the first half away to Chelsea or away to stoke this year we play some very nice football, but if we don't get this going we are slow, ponderous, negative and predictable and dare is say too risky and overplaying at the back, teams press us high like
Man.utd did today at the right times and cut us apart.

The thing is the way we play is probably a good way to play given than we don't have a ton of quality attacking options and also we really lack paddy quality attacking players. Over the history of the PL weve been more a gung ho team with little steel or defensive structure. We won games often due to some individual moments of skill say from a ginola or berbatov but the team as a whole were not good enough. Also away to the 'big' teams traditionally we don't just lose we have often been hammered, sometimes by Arsenal and regularly by man.u and Chelsea. Occasionally we score early and start well but often we end up losing 3/4-1 as the oppositions quality shines through.

Then there were the AVB days where we just got absolutely shat on by man.city and Liverpool for example 4/5-0 which was really embarrassing.

So while we now have the so called 'best defence' I also don't feel we offer too much of a threat going forwards and need to be very clinical otherwise we don't get a result.

Is this due to our style of play being a little negative? Is it because we lack pace? Are our attacking players just not good enough?

I often now crave for 2 up front or 3 or just a more exciting spurs like team but then we'd probably not have as good a defence.

Phil Neville mabye summed it up that we lack that game changing player who can win a game or take a player on the likes of: Hazard,Pedro,Mikatayren,Pogba,Sanchez,Walcott,Coutiniho,Mane,De Bruyne,Sterling,Toure,Silva,Payet etc!!! Basically a Bale!

So does Potch need to change our style slightly for us to be a bit more positive or do we just need to sign some better attacking players like we tried to do in the summer but failed hugely.

Still positive about where we are going as a club but right now I see us finishing 6th and after our dizzy heights of last season and seeing Chelsea and Arsenal doing so well it's a little depressing.

Let's hope we get a good couple of wins over Xmas now as we really have to in order to stay in touch and hopefully the top6 will drop a few more points.

I feel like we don't do enough daring or doing in our play but perhaps it's not potchs fault but we just need to recruit better. Heck even Zaha would've improved us going forward.

COYS.

But that aside... its Poch not Potch.

 

[dagraham]

I love the fact that we are a tough nut to crack these days, but we are quite dull to watch a lot of the time. As someone said, we rely on everyone being on it and in the zone to function. As soon as a couple of players are a bit off the pace, we have nothing to fall back on and it becomes monotonous sideways and backwards passing with little threat.

This also becomes a problem when opposition teams figure us out during the game, such as Chelsea. We often can't respond and as we also display a complete lack of ruthlessness when on top, it's easy to see why we don't win as many games as we should.

I always thought top four was a massive ask so our league position doesn't concern me too much, but our performances do. We've played 15 league games and 6 CL games and I can only think of a handful of games where we've played well for most of the match. Of course you can't always have a good day, but more often than not we have been very uninspiring going forward.

 

[onthetwo]

The side has little cutting edge at the moment. We need someone to step up and show a bit of form in the final third or else we will consolidate our current status as the 5th best team in the league which on current evidence looks about right to me. Yesterdays starting 11 is probably our best team so for me, throwing Sissoko on to do his thing is both a sign of desperation aswell as confirmation that our current squad lacks depth.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Poch schools these players like we are a mid-table Spanish league side.

Ticki-taki going nowhere football with little end product. Been like that last season and all of this one.

4-2-3-1 system with a predictable third three that has no invention, pace or strength. Three very much of a muchness players that any decent side can suss out a after the first quarter of a game.

This is unnecessarily negative and saying that players like Eriksen, Alli and Son aren't game changers is daft (albeit I'd like to see Lamela back in to offer a bit more guile).

I think the issue is that these players aren't getting the ball in positions where they can make a difference.

As you say there is a lot of passing that is going nowhere in our midfield, meaning those players don't get the ball quickly enough and when they do they are crowded out.

We need to get the ball forwards quicker from midfield, as we did quite well against CSKA, and then the likes of Eriksen will have more time and space to make things happen.

Unfortunately we don't have the midfielders to do this other than Winks at the moment. If Poch isn't going to trust Winks, then he needs to address this in January.

Other than that I don't think there's too much to panic about. Our defence is decent, we've got a great striker and some quality players. We just need to knit them together with a decent midfield.

 

[DJS]

We need two pacey wingers, proper pacey attacking wingers who support Kane up top.

Especially on right side as without Lamela we have nothing on that side really.

On left we have Son, although he needs to get some consistency and also Ndokou who could prove to be a gem.