Racism in Football BBC 1 - Spurs

[Dundalk_Spur]

David Baddeil talking about how Spurs singing Yid Army and Yiddo is offensive.

Slating Spurs fans for using the words even though he admits it was Spurs taking it back from the likes of his own club Chelseas fans to use their racism against them. Admits to Chelsea fans singing anti-jewish Spurs songs, but is more interested in attacking Spurs for not trying to stop our fans using them than maybe looking at his own club to kick out their racists who sing their songs and make the hissing sounds.

Nice and impartial.

I can understand Jewish fans being upset with the words being used, but at the same time many have voiced the fact they use the words and chants as a positive expression of their support.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this??

 

[Annabel]

Yeah, I'm watching it now. Baddiel seemed more upset at us calling ourselves Yids than the Chelsea fans singing Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz.

If our Jewish supporters hate us using the term then maybe we should stop, but I don't think there's a consensus.

 

[beats1]

I think the use of the word Yid should stop when the racist chanting does, but it hasn't yet and I don't understand why it is overlooked

 

[Dundalk_Spur]

I really can understand how the use of the words is hurtful, but I felt his mission was one against Spurs as opposed to the general racism against jews in football. With the links to Combat 18 and their fans behaviour ie the hissing maybe he should have looked closer to home first.

 

[Kingstheman]

Why remove the tree from Chelsea's eye, when Tottenham have a splinter in theirs?

 

[Legend10]

David Baddeil talking about how Spurs singing Yid Army and Yiddo is offensive.

Slating Spurs fans for using the words even though he admits it was Spurs taking it back from the likes of his own club Chelseas fans to use their racism against them. Admits to Chelsea fans singing anti-jewish Spurs songs, but is more interested in attacking Spurs for not trying to stop our fans using them than maybe looking at his own club to kick out their racists who sing their songs and make the hissing sounds.

Nice and impartial.

I can understand Jewish fans being upset with the words being used, but at the same time many have voiced the fact they use the words and chants as a positive expression of their support.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this??

Yep, who gives a fuck about anything that david badiel says?

 

[gp13tot]

I really can understand how the use of the words is hurtful, but I felt his mission was one against Spurs as opposed to the general racism against jews in football. With the links to Combat 18 and their fans behaviour ie the hissing maybe he should have looked closer to home first.

Completely agree mate, it was an absolute disgrace and completely discredited the programme and Clarke Carlisle, who worried about 'club tribalism' fuelling racism in the game and then gave Baddiel a vehicle to wear that badge with dishonour. He didn't seem all that bothered about the Auchwitz/Belsen stuff, nor did he mention the constant hissing (i remember the home game in 2001 we lost 3-2 i think, they were at it all game) or the links to far right groups prevalent amongst a lot of their fan base as you have mentioned.

He was most annoyed at Tottenham's stance on the word Yid rather than Chelsea's attitude towards the word or Spurs fans and/or Jews in general. I have never heard any of our fans complain against the word. If they did i think the chants would cease fairly quickly. Man, woman and child sing Yid Army with pride, are we all racist. Nonsense

 

[SpunkyBackpack]

Other teams are wrong but we are ok. The fans of the opposition are bastards and say incorrect things when they speak.



(cut and paste into every forum of every club on every issue)

 

[stemark44]

Religion has no part to play in any football club.

If you are a supporter of Spurs simply because of your religion...................fuck off!

 

[Niknoo]

The word 'yid' is not used in the same context anymore so it's a shame people feel offended. I've only ever known baddeil to say it's offensive though. There are Jews on some of these forums who say they see no problem at all with the way the term 'Yid army' is used. If I can see that it is genuinely offending people and not just David baddeil, it would be no bother for me to stop referring to myself as a 'yid'.

General note on racism in football. I think it's completely unacceptable but I don't think it will ever stop. I went to the same game my brother went to a couple of seasons ago and was supposed to be meeting him after. He was late because he was giving a statement to the police about our OWN fans racially abusing our OWN players! Who the fuck are these people?! Was very proud of big bro for doing something about it, not enough people do.

 

[StartingPrice]

There have been some decent threads on this, in the past.
If they are still available you will get some good arguments either way, and some good ammunition.

Other teams are wrong but we are ok. The fans of the opposition are bastards and say incorrect things when they speak.



(cut and paste into every forum of every club on every issue)

Only in instances when we are in the wrong.
It is not a clear-cut case of Baddiel saying this so anyone who disagrees is wrong.

Religion has no part to play in any football club.

If you are a supporter of Spurs simply because of your religion...................fuck off!

The whole 'YID' thing with Spurrs was not really very much to do with religion. The Nazis detestation of Jews was based on their racial theories (for the most part). The Nazi-esque far-right in many, but not all countries adopted this detestation. If I am correct, it was in standing up against Black-Shirts attempting to isolate and victimise Jews that led to local Tottenham supporters adapting the chants, and acting on the streets, to show solidarity with the Jews.

It is interesting that you should say that religion has no part in football. In many instances, it was through the industrious efforts of clergymen that deprived workers, often expected to work 14 hours a day and half-days on Sunday, at the height of the industrial revolution, that was instrumental in founding football clubs. I took Sport and Society in Victorian Britain as part of my degree

 

[TaoistMonkey]

BOOM BOOM, BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM............

 

[Dundalk_Spur]

There have been some decent threads on this, in the past.
If they are still available you will get some good arguments either way, and some good ammunition.




The whole 'YID' thing with Spurrs was not really very much to do with religion. The Nazis detestation of Jews was based on their racial theories (for the most part). The Nazi-esque far-right in many, but not all countries adopted this detestation. If I am correct, it was in standing up against Black-Shirts attempting to isolate and victimise Jews that led to local Tottenham supporters adapting the chants, and acting on the streets, to show solidarity with the Jews.

This was a point I made to my wife last night as she doesnt like hearing our fans sing it (she is an Irish Catholic, go figure). I tried to explain that the Spurs fans took ownership of the words to lessen the racist overtones they were being used for and turn it into a rallying cry of support. It is a bit like the younger generations of African Americans taking ownership of the N word, it is now perceived as "their" word, even though older generations detest them using it.

I think his smug nature during the interview and previous agenda against Spurs wound me up, as he used an important issue to tar our club with, and not tackling the wider issue evident within his own club.

 

[StartingPrice]

This was a point I made to my wife last night as she doesnt like hearing our fans sing it (she is an Irish Catholic, go figure). I tried to explain that the Spurs fans took ownership of the words to lessen the racist overtones they were being used for and turn it into a rallying cry of support. It is a bit like the younger generations of African Americans taking ownership of the N word, it is now perceived as "their" word, even though older generations detest them using it.

I think his smug nature during the interview and previous agenda against Spurs wound me up, as he used an important issue to tar our club with, and not tackling the wider issue evident within his own club.

As others have said: if there was a general concensus against it, particluarly from the Jewish community, I would say we don't need to use it any more - but Spurs fans should be taught it as part of the history of the club, and be proud of it. It was standing up against extreme right intimidation.

Like I said, some good threads on it already.

More specifically, yeah, it feels like Baddiel has an agenda, and for him to highlight us singing it in the positive-affirmative way we do, and ignore the Chavs hissing and singing Auschwitz songs - well, someone should call him out on it, is all.

 

[OneHotspur1988]

BOOM BOOM, BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM............

Yids

 

[vavaboom]

I don't mean to sound pretencious or holier-than-thou but I think a few of you are missing his message. Stepping away from our stance as Spurs supporters and viewing this matter in a completely impartial stance reveals a few important points:

Firstly, Baddiel's argument is that: If Racism has been so heavily policed within our game, then why isn't anti-semitism or any other religious conflict treated the same?

His point is that using the word YID is a wholly incorrect and inappropriate label for Tottenham supporters, because it fosters and encourages the negative traits attatched to this group of people. Word meanings evolve and change as different social groups come in to contact with them, for us, YID mostly just means a spurs supporter, and no longer refers to an ethnicity.

Baddiel uses the analogy of a club that wishes to support black players in the height of racism, with their supporters calling themselves the "nigger army". He says it would be a wholly inappropriate moniker in modern football and would not be allowed, as indeed it shouldn't. Firstly, at a base linguistic view, it is problematic because having an "army" that supports this group, immediately entails that it faces opposition, and highlights the fact that this racist behaviour still exists within the game.

The same is true of Tottenham supporters, according to Baddiel. What annoyed him the most about Spurs in that interview is the managements total laissez-faire attitude to tackling this word and the supporter's adoption of it.

Issues of race are a sad and unfortunate topic to have to deal with in a game like football, and personally, I can't believe more isn't being done to punish Chelsea and other clubs for their flagrant and despicable bouts of anti-semitic behaviour. With regard to Baddiels position: I can understand him viewing Spurs as part of the problem, but think he is blinkered in dealing with the true issue that is educating purportrators of anti-semitism about the stupidity of their actions.

 

[SNAFU_Clarke]

I don't mean to sound pretencious or holier-than-thou but I think a few of you are missing his message.

i'm not sure that's the case. most spurs fans, (and let's not pretend we don't have some right wankers in our midst the same as any other club), would agree with the general point. the concern is that baddiel was not anywhere near as hard on actual far right hooligans in the chelsea fanbase as he was on otherwise upstanding members of society in the spurs fanbase. in fact the only time he mentioned the chelsea supporters being anti semitic at all was when he used it as the basis for a joke, which hugely undermined his credibility on this issue.

 

[TheChosenOne]

Been a Spurs fan for approx 50 yrs.
Never been a Yid/Yiddo .. never felt that it was right to be called one, I love the Jewish psyche, their humour, outlook on life despite their oft troubled existence.
I was made a Catholic shortly after birth, some say "once a Catholic etc" but I have turned my back on religion, probably as they say until the time I am drowning.

Just my thoughts.

 

[StartingPrice]

I don't mean to sound pretencious or holier-than-thou but I think a few of you are missing his message. Stepping away from our stance as Spurs supporters and viewing this matter in a completely impartial stance reveals a few important points:

Firstly, Baddiel's argument is that: If Racism has been so heavily policed within our game, then why isn't anti-semitism or any other religious conflict treated the same?

His point is that using the word YID is a wholly incorrect and inappropriate label for Tottenham supporters, because it fosters and encourages the negative traits attatched to this group of people. Word meanings evolve and change as different social groups come in to contact with them, for us, YID mostly just means a spurs supporter, and no longer refers to an ethnicity.

Baddiel uses the analogy of a club that wishes to support black players in the height of racism, with their supporters calling themselves the "nigger army". He says it would be a wholly inappropriate moniker in modern football and would not be allowed, as indeed it shouldn't. Firstly, at a base linguistic view, it is problematic because having an "army" that supports this group, immediately entails that it faces opposition, and highlights the fact that this racist behaviour still exists within the game.

The same is true of Tottenham supporters, according to Baddiel. What annoyed him the most about Spurs in that interview is the managements total laissez-faire attitude to tackling this word and the supporter's adoption of it.

Issues of race are a sad and unfortunate topic to have to deal with in a game like football, and personally, I can't believe more isn't being done to punish Chelsea and other clubs for their flagrant and despicable bouts of anti-semitic behaviour. With regard to Baddiels position: I can understand him viewing Spurs as part of the problem, but think he is blinkered in dealing with the true issue that is educating purportrators of anti-semitism about the stupidity of their actions.

But, as I have said, they are all points that have been raised in the previous threads on this subject - stated and answered.

No-ones arguing that anti-semitism shouldn't be policed out of the game - it is just strange that Baddiel seems more intent on policing the term Yid when applied by Spurs fans to themselves in a positive-affirmative way, than he does in eradicating its use by supporters of his own club in a derogatory, demeaning, Holocaust ridiculing way.

How does having the word YID is a wholly incorrect and inappropriate label for Tottenham supporters, because it fosters and encourages the negative traits attatched to this group of people? Because other teams' supporters use it in a negative way. End of! Spurs fans are celebrating the fact that their predecessors stood up to Black-Shirt thugs, they are hardly going around singing We are the dirty, breeding like rabbits, money-grubbing, Protocols of the Eolders of Zion Yids are they!

His analogy with the plight of black players, and by extension black people in general, is an interesting one. I would have to say that, firstly, it is an argument he is making by reduction, that he really just shouldn't be making. Nigger derives from the Latin, Niger, into the various modern forms of the latin languages, and was only ever used to refer to black people and with the specific connotation of being inferior. He clearly is not cognisant of the fact that black people have commandeered (rightly or wrongly) the term and applied it affirmatively in any number of ways. So, is he arguing that black people shouldn't do this, and by extension Jewish people shouldn't so own the term Yid? Or is he saying that it is alright for black people and black people only to, and, by extension for Jewish people to own the term Yid - in which case it would be okay for Jewish Spurs fans to sing Yid Army, and the rest to sing we're on their side or summit? In any case, as Mr Baddiel should know only too well, the term Yid is derived from the name of a dialect with germanic roots infused with Hebrew, Yiddish. So, it would be more appropriate if in his analogy, the black fans/black supporting fans were to sing Jive-Army or some such, and not Nigger-Army...which kinda weakens his somewhat tendentious argument.

So, the crux of Mr Baddiel's argument is that we should eradicate atin-semitism in football not by concentrating on the term Yid as used in a demeaning, inflammatory way by his beloved Cheslea fans, but by focussing on the failure of the hierarchy at THFC for failing to stamp out it's use in a positive-affirmative way. Genuis.

Your final paragraph is basically what everyone else has said. He is focussing on the group of people having a slur thrown in their direction for turning a negative into a positive, and not those throwing it in a negative way - who happen to support the team he supports in many instances. That makes him treating it in this way seem overbearing, patronising, downright partisan, deceitful and plain cowardly.

 

[Spurslove]

Racism (which incorporates anti-semitism) is wrong and has no place in football. We all agree on that, but it's very hard to take seriously someone who refuses to acknowledge the disgusting failings of the fanbase of the club he supports, when he's far too busy hurling arrows at us for what are basically, stupid, pathetic, juvenile and blinkered reasons on his part.

I've been following this club since December 1961 and I am also Jewish. I am also a fan who has no problem with being referred to as being a Yid or a Yiddo. It makes me feel proud. It's my badge of honour and makes me feel part of a gigantic family of like minded individuals.

We've highlighted here all the weaknesses of Baddiel's argument against us using the word as a means of self identification and they're all true.

I think he's an idiot which is far worse than just being Jewish. He's jumping on the media bandwagon to try and make his point, which is in itself a fu*king disgrace, especially as the point he's trying to make doesn't stand up to any close scrutiniy.

Someone made the point in an earlier post, that he should try and sort out the revolting scum who follow Chelsea before he starts accusing us of anything. He should just shut the f*uck up. He's a snivelling little runt and (as you can tell) I'm not very keen on him or anything he has to say about anything.