Ratings vs Arsenal

[Bus-Conductor]

Mason Bentaleb is a very good partnership and I'm surprised we haven't been using it at certain times.

Last season the complaints was the protection from that pairing wasn't good enough which lead to goals being conceded and Dier without question along with Alderweireld have improved our defensive record.

Last season poor defensive record was down to are CB's, it was atrocious, with Alderweireld we have improved at the back now and it would be interesting to see Mason Bentaleb in certain games.

I agree, I think there are definitely games where both would be good and many seem to have forgotten we came close to finishing 4th last year with those two sandwiched between an ever-changing defence and ill disciplined front 4.

But I also think it would be nice just to see either or Mason/Bentaleb with either or Dier/Dembele as well. Could freshen things up in this busy phase and give players valuable rotation without being a completely different dynamic for everyone to get used to.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Meant to say Alli alongside Dier and Dembele further forward

Problem with that is, Alli doesn't quite have the full skill set required to play in a CM2 (yet?), and why do we need Alli to lay there when we have someone like Mason who also has the ability to get forward and score (as he proved last week and when he got injured against Sundrland) but also will also get through the workload and ball recycling? I think Poch realises that Alli is a bit of a compromise as a CM2 which is why he hasn't used him there much lately.

 

[Spurs 1961]

Problem with that is, Alli doesn't quite have the full skill set required to play in a CM2 (yet?), and why do we need Alli to lay there when we have someone like Mason who also has the ability to get forward and score (as he proved last week and when he got injured against Sundrland) but also will also get through the workload and ball recycling? I think Poch realises that Alli is a bit of a compromise as a CM2 which is why he hasn't used him there much lately.

Alli certainly is not the finished package yet and why should he be at such an early stage of development. I just feel he offers us more than just solidity and his ability to do the unexpected is necessary in games where most teams just sit back and play counter attack against us. If we push Dembele up then I would rather Alli play centrally with Dier doing the dogged stuff alongside

 

[Japhet]

I agree, I think there are definitely games where both would be good and many seem to have forgotten we came close to finishing 4th last year with those two sandwiched between an ever-changing defence and ill disciplined front 4.

But I also think it would be nice just to see either or Mason/Bentaleb with either or Dier/Dembele as well. Could freshen things up in this busy phase and give players valuable rotation without being a completely different dynamic for everyone to get used to.

You only have to compare our goal difference to last season's to get a graphic illustration of how porous we were with Mason and Bentaleb. We were like an open barn door through the middle in multiple games. Granted, the front 4 are working as a cohesive unit now and can press effectively and Alderweireld has taken control of the back 4 but Dier has been instrumental in making us harder to beat. It's very much a case of either/or for me with Mason and Bentaleb, and quite often neither if Dier and Dembele are fit. What Dembele does which nobody else has in their locker is that he forces opponents to try to get the ball off him which creates angles and spaces for others.

 

[Sanj]

In hindsight, and having just watched the last 35 minutes of the game, I don't think Poch got loads wrong tactically during this game. I think in an ideal world he should have swapped Alli - who bar chasing down the ball for Kane's wonder goal had an absolutely awful game - but the problem was Lamela had got himself on a yellow, and we all know that he is prone to fly into a tackle recklessly, and though he was contributing really well without the ball, he wasn't contributing much of substance with the ball either and was also wasteful, so I can really understand the logic of taking him off first. At 67 min, 2-1 up, Mason's was the right man to come on, his ability to compete, show for the ball and pass it was exactly what was needed at 2-1 up against 10 men. And for the next ten minutes we were actually managing the game very well, and looking like adding to our tally whilst they were not threatening at all.

The bigger problem for me was how little control our CM's were exerting on the game throughout, and also how little our front four, but particularly Alli, Lamela and Kane contributed to this and added to the problem by repeatedly fucking away possession.

I find it really troubling that a team away from home and with ten men for 39 minutes of the game managed to complete almost as many passes as we did. Their front four completed 18 more passes (112) than our front four (94).

Both their goals come about as a result of us sloppily coughing up the ball in attack. You could say we were a bit unfortunate as we actually didn't concede many clear chances to them, but we didn't create any clear chances from open play, so they were unlucky to concede two goals to us too.

What also happened was Wenger made a very offensive sub of Giroud on for Elneny just before the goal. What this meant was, now when we kept turning over the ball cheaply, they would break with an increased numerical advantage, as a result of these factors - our cm's lack of control, our forwards/am's turning over the ball, their numerical forward overload - the game became end to end.

I don't know if the next two subs were forced on Poch through injury/fitness (I can't see why else he would make the like for like swap of Rose/Davies) but if they weren't forced then they were not tactically very smart, but I guess with Mason on, swapping one of the poor CM's for an pacey, direct attacker was worth a shot.

But I come back to my point about "control". And I used the stats comparison with last year to try and make that point. Last year our CM's completely dictated the game, the tempo, they made 30 more passes (against a more superior 11 men) than our CM's did this year. And they were aided by having both Eriksen and Dembele in the AM's, meaning possession wasn't continually frittered away cheaply. It was a much better combination for a frenetic game of this type.

As I've said elsewhere, we are talking margin calls now. What Poch is IMO getting a little wrong in terms of selection or tactically at times, he is getting very right in terms of what he's coaching into this team and in other tactical areas he's improved us drastically. And I can understand why with his front foot, final third loading philosophy, he maybe feels that Dier and Dembele mitigate and help him manage the defensive phases. And in some cases I empathise and see that logic. Which is important - that even if you don't agree with something, you see some logic - but I do think that in many games this season we have missed what a player like Bentaleb brought to the team. And as I've said elsewhere I think we have thrown a tiny bit of the CM baby out with the CM bathwater. I'd like to see either Dier/Bentaleb or Dembele/Mason together.

BC - couldn't agree more about 'Control' - i was screaming that to the TV constantly for teh last 20 mins.
At 2-1 up, the electric atmosphere and the momentum sweeping us along our young team got caught up in the moment. We started to play gung-ho and it was a more like an end to end basketball match than a football match.
We really lacked a player/ leader who could calm the players and slow down the pace of the game. Instead we continued looking for the 3rd in a reckless fashion allowing the 10 men of Arsenal the game they wanted - an open game in which they could try and break on us. Hopefully an experience that the players will learn from as we push on for the rest of teh season.
That said, however much this draw feels like a defeat - we should take pride in the overall performance and attitude of the players. If we continue to play like this we will win many more than we lose (draw).

 

[Bus-Conductor]

BC - couldn't agree more about 'Control' - i was screaming that to the TV constantly for teh last 20 mins.
At 2-1 up, the electric atmosphere and the momentum sweeping us along our young team got caught up in the moment. We started to play gung-ho and it was a more like an end to end basketball match than a football match.
We really lacked a player/ leader who could calm the players and slow down the pace of the game. Instead we continued looking for the 3rd in a reckless fashion allowing the 10 men of Arsenal the game they wanted - an open game in which they could try and break on us. Hopefully an experience that the players will learn from as we push on for the rest of teh season.
That said, however much this draw feels like a defeat - we should take pride in the overall performance and attitude of the players. If we continue to play like this we will win many more than we lose (draw).

I feel disappointed that we've coughed up leads to Arsenal twice this season because we'd be top of the league, 9 points clear of them now, and I think they will take a morale boost from that game that we won't.

But we also have to take stock of the fact that Arsenal games used to be the most embarrassing of the season and the gulf in not just class but energy and work rate was pitiful to witness. Even when we skanked a couple of flooky wins under Redknapp.

We now go into these games competing for every inch and feeling we can win and win properly.

Our intensity was really good but our composure let us down Saturday.

 

[NEVILLEB]

Alli is carrying an ankle/knee injury. Explains his anonymity against Arsenal.

 

[Riandor]

Alli is carrying an ankle/knee injury. Explains his anonymity against Arsenal.

Hmmm debatable as to whether it's wise to play someone so young and who is carrying an injury.

But he will get a rest vs Dortmund at least.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Alli is carrying an ankle/knee injury. Explains his anonymity against Arsenal.

I think the frenetic nature of the game explained why most of our front four weren't at their best, that wasn't the first time Alli's not been great this season.

If he wasn't fit he shouldn't have been played, we have CM's who could have played and we could have pushed Dembele up the pitch, which would have given us someone who could actually hold the fucking thing longer than a nano second.

 

[Shea]

Alli is carrying an ankle/knee injury. Explains his anonymity against Arsenal.

Despite not being great he produce a moment of excellence to set up what should have been a winning goal

When you're a team that has lots of possession but struggle to find that creative chance to set up or score a chance players like Alli are invaluable because he can be stinking up the place and yet in a blink of an eye produce a game changing moment of brilliance

 

[spurs9]

Despite not being great he produce a moment of excellence to set up what should have been a winning goal

When you're a team that has lots of possession but struggle to find that creative chance to set up or score a chance players like Alli are invaluable because he can be stinking up the place and yet in a blink of an eye produce a game changing moment of brilliance

Once we went ahead, I feel that Alli should have come off, with Mason coming on and partnering Dier in the CM two, Eriksen going wide and Dembele going AM, if were worried about a 2nd yellow for Lamela, we should have also brought Chadli on for him. Chadli may not work as hard, but he can keep hold of the ball, which is what we needed to do, with them only having 10 men.

 

[NEVILLEB]

Hmmm debatable as to whether it's wise to play someone so young and who is carrying an injury.

But he will get a rest vs Dortmund at least.

He’s such a vital part our team that Poch took the risk.

Backfired didn’t it.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Despite not being great he produce a moment of excellence to set up what should have been a winning goal

When you're a team that has lots of possession but struggle to find that creative chance to set up or score a chance players like Alli are invaluable because he can be stinking up the place and yet in a blink of an eye produce a game changing moment of brilliance

Yeah, but him fumbling possession also started the sequence that led to both goals. So the stink up column was in the red saturday, so you can't ignore it just because he chased down a ball and won it and Kane still had a fucking shit load to do from near the corner flag, it wasn't like it was Alli brilliance that created the chance, but Alli graft, which is great but we had that in abundance saturday. What we really could have done with was all our front four doing more composed stuff, get the ball under control, get their heads up instead of trying to flick & dribble with clown boots or shoot straight at two defenders standing in front of the them.

 

[Shea]

Yeah, but him fumbling possession also started the sequence that led to both goals. So the stink up column was in the red saturday, so you can't ignore it just because he chased down a ball and won it and Kane still had a fucking shit load to do from near the corner flag, it wasn't like it was Alli brilliance that created the chance, but Alli graft, which is great but we had that in abundance saturday. What we really could have done with was all our front four doing more composed stuff, get the ball under control, get their heads up instead of trying to flick & dribble with clown boots or shoot straight at two defenders standing in front of the them.

I think it's overly harsh to lay blame with Alli for either goal

 

[Mr Pink]

Yeah, but him fumbling possession also started the sequence that led to both goals. So the stink up column was in the red saturday, so you can't ignore it just because he chased down a ball and won it and Kane still had a fucking shit load to do from near the corner flag, it wasn't like it was Alli brilliance that created the chance, but Alli graft, which is great but we had that in abundance saturday. What we really could have done with was all our front four doing more composed stuff, get the ball under control, get their heads up instead of trying to flick & dribble with clown boots or shoot straight at two defenders standing in front of the them.

But the fumbling of possession BC wasn't absolutely critical. Numerous things happened after each loss of possession that could of easily of been handled better for both goals - namely the actual defending.

I agree he didn't have a great game but that does sound overly harsh IMO.

 

[NEVILLEB]

He’s our Gerrard and we’re not the same team without him in attack or defence.

But he was clearly sub par and I would have taken him off at half time.

 

[theShiznit]

Yeah, but him fumbling possession also started the sequence that led to both goals. So the stink up column was in the red saturday, so you can't ignore it just because he chased down a ball and won it and Kane still had a fucking shit load to do from near the corner flag, it wasn't like it was Alli brilliance that created the chance, but Alli graft, which is great but we had that in abundance saturday. What we really could have done with was all our front four doing more composed stuff, get the ball under control, get their heads up instead of trying to flick & dribble with clown boots or shoot straight at two defenders standing in front of the them.

I never buy this "one moment" sentiment.

For example against Palace where a high percentage were calling for Alli to be subbed for a long time before his wonder goal.
You can argue all day that if he'd been subbed that winner would never have been scored, but you can also argue that had another player been in there contributing more to the all round play that he could have created something not only individually but for the team, so we could have already been 2-3 goals up at that point.

Because if you are constantly relying on that "one moment" unfortunately you will more often than not end up in deficit (like Saturday)

I'm all for individual brilliance, flicks and nutmegs, but when the percentage of it leading to possession being squandered is so high, there comes a point where someone needs to have a word and point it out.

If only Mason, Lamela and Carroll were afforded the same lenience when they give up possession.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

But the fumbling of possession BC wasn't absolutely critical. Numerous things happened after each loss of possession that could of easily of been handled better for both goals - namely the actual defending.

I agree he didn't have a great game but that does sound overly harsh IMO.

It was critical, all game long. We should have won that game but the amount of ball we turned over needlessly was why we lost that game. How can a team with ten men end up making nearly as many passes as we did, how an earth does their front four make nearly 30 more passes than our front four ? That is where we lost the game, our complete inability to compose ourselves and hold onto the fucking thing and make simple decisions. And I have stated repeatedly, it wasn't just Alli.

 

[theShiznit]

But the fumbling of possession BC wasn't absolutely critical. Numerous things happened after each loss of possession that could of easily of been handled better for both goals - namely the actual defending.

I agree he didn't have a great game but that does sound overly harsh IMO.

Surely in creating a goal the first pass is as important as the last (as if the first pass never happened the last one wouldn't either)

works the same the other way.

Don't think BC is being Houllier extreme (when he labelled Ginola a criminal for crossing the ball in)

Especially if the ball is being carelessly squandered repeatedly, it will eventually lead to goals against.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I never buy this "one moment" sentiment.

For example against Palace where a high percentage were calling for Alli to be subbed for a long time before his wonder goal.
You can argue all day that if he'd been subbed that winner would never have been scored, but you can also argue that had another player been in there contributing more to the all round play that he could have created something not only individually but for the team, so we could have already been 2-3 goals up at that point.

Because if you are constantly relying on that "one moment" unfortunately you will more often than not end up in deficit (like Saturday)

I'm all for individual brilliance, flicks and nutmegs, but when the percentage of it leading to possession being squandered is so high, there comes a point where someone needs to have a word and point it out.

If only Mason, Lamela and Carroll were afforded the same lenience when they give up possession.

Fucking bang on.