Ratings vs Liverpool

[danielneeds]

Will someone please email this article to Poch? Nail on the head stuff...

http://bet.unibet.co.uk/football/pr...-more-pragmatic-approach-against-bigger-sides

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Spot on.

I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been posted. Poch blew it with the starting formation and compounded the error by not rectifying it as soon as it became apparent that we were second best all over the park. His objective then should have been to solidify, frustrate and counter, then look to impose our game when they started running out of ideas.

I don't know if it is a pride thing, but it was naive in the extreme to expect us to wrestle control back when we were once again reacting to situations almost constantly.

In games like this, we need to be pragmatic in the first half. Swansea showed the perfect example against City, first half was all about prevention, second half about controlled intent and they were unlucky to not get a result from that game. Had we shown the same intent against Liverpool I'm sure we'd have gotten a point at the very least.

I wouldn't have even minded if we'd gone full banzai press war with them, as we have in Klopp's previous three games and the last one under Rodgers at their gaff. If we'd have lost a frenetic press fest (like that 3-2 Rodgers game where Balotelli scored) I'd have happily taken it on the chin, but my biggest issue is we did neither that or passive aggressive pragmatism, we just ended up looking like fucking rabbits caught in the headlights with no tactical clue what to do at all, and the sad thing is I don't even think Klopp has this Liverpool team at it's best either.

The two up top right next to each other just stretched our shape right out and left gaps everywhere to the side and behind them, combined with the fact that there are issues with all of Kane, Alli and Son's pressing. Kane is just not working hard enough generally in all games right now. Alli's not lazy, he will cover ground but he presses in that way that commits to easily and allows the player past too easily and once he's past he's away from him for good. Son just isn't very clever and conscientious with his pressing, and has now cost us goals in three major away games with his laziness.

 

[ackie]

We signed the perfect young understudy in Janssen, who plays a very similar game and is an ideal understudy IMO. He hustles and bustles, is happy to press, takes it personally if he loses the ball and if given chances has proven that he can find the net. As a back up, I would have loved Lacazette, but as an economic back up I think Janssen is fine.

I don't not like Dembele, I think he has some really good qualities, but I do not think he was better than Wanyama yesterday, and I'm genuinely interested in what way you think Dembele was better ? Defensively, offensively ? both ? They both made similar tackle/interceptions/recoveries (if you add those up it's 9 Dembele, 7 Wanyama. Wanyama made 33 passes to Dembele 21, received the ball 20 times to Wanyama's 30.

I think Wanyama's passing is perfunctory but at least he showed for it more yesterday and he keeps it moving quickly and simply, Dembele's penchant for taking too many touches just slows everything down and gives front foot opposition chance to set about us. By the time he's released the ball everyone's got a man up their arse.

I would have much preferred he played further forward yesterday and it would have given us some bite in those forward areas.

He wasn't the reason we failed miserably but I just don't think he's great in a CM2 if you want to play high tempo, quick transition football.

Cant really argue with stats but remember he didn't play the full 90 as Wanyama.
Agreed that further forward would suit him best.

He looked more up for it than the others.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Will someone please email this article to Poch? Nail on the head stuff...

http://bet.unibet.co.uk/football/pr...-more-pragmatic-approach-against-bigger-sides

I don't necessarily agree, as I said above, I think going banzai at teams like Klopp's and Guardiola's can reap dividends, if you get it right, just as if you try to be passive sometimes you can come unstuck because it's not your usual modus operandi and if they get an early goal from a set piece or whatever, your plan goes to fucking pish and you have 70-80 minutes improvising.

That's not to say, as I also said earlier that we couldn't have tried the passive aggressive approach because we have proved we can, but I think the simple fact is Poch got whatever he was trying to do tactically very wrong, and when you do that it can go pear shape regardless of what you are trying

 

[ackie]

Completely agree and had similar sentiments in my ratings. On further thought he possibly was not bad with the ball and under Liverpools intense press and his ability to get out of tight spots. But defensively he left us so exposed down our left along with Son to a point that in the second half Poch switched Dembele to right of the CM2 with Wanyama to provide more protection down that flank.

There was a 3-4 game window in Poch's first season when we played a midfield 2 of Mason and Bentaleb with Dembele in front and it resulted in some of the best football we have played under Poch. It had its flaws defensively, but Mason and Bentaleb's ability to move the ball quickly along with Dembele's hold up play meant we had long periods pegging the opposition back in their 3rd. It was abandoned to play a trio of Townsend, Chadli and Eriksen for some reason.

Would love something similar with a Winks, Wanyama, Dembele trio with Winks sitting deeper back on the table...just as an option. Yesterday for example we might have benefitted more going direct and utilising Dembele and Kane's strength on the ball to try and get some sort of territory.

I really would like to see Winks/Wanyama/Dembele trio too but i think MoPo may feel this is 'lightweight ' defensively unless we have both Verts/toby defensively.
I dont know why he doesn't try this with Eriksen and Lamela or Alli.
But yhe right flank?

 

[danielneeds]

I don't necessarily agree, as I said above, I think going banzai at teams like Klopp's and Guardiola's can reap dividends, if you get it right, just as if you try to be passive sometimes you can come unstuck because it's not your usual modus operandi and if they get an early goal from a set piece or whatever, your plan goes to fucking pish and you have 70-80 minutes improvising.

That's not to say, as I also said earlier that we couldn't have tried the passive aggressive approach because we have proved we can, but I think the simple fact is Poch got whatever he was trying to do tactically very wrong, and when you do that it can go pear shape regardless of what you are trying

Sure it can work on occasion - but statistics tell us something needs to change in our approach away from home. It's not all bad though took Fergie loads of pastings away, particularly in Europe, before he realised there was a time for pragmatism.

 

[Supersi32]

Dier - I have some sympathy with him for the goal, he fucks up but it's great pressing by Liverpool and he and we as a team just didn't deal with it collectively. Apart from that he's not had a great game but was probably not worse for the most part than TA, as all our defenders were horribly exposed by our poor defending and work as a group.

I`ve got absolutely no sympathy for Dier, he had an ample amount of time to do something with the ball, he knows Liverpool are a pressing team yet instead he wants (and not for the first time this season) far too much time on the ball, he's a dawdler and a plodder with the ball at his feet, far too often he takes too much time to decide what he wants to do and I`ve noticed that's it's really starting to irk me.

 

[mpickard2087]

I wouldn't have even minded if we'd gone full banzai press war with them, as we have in Klopp's previous three games and the last one under Rodgers at their gaff. If we'd have lost a frenetic press fest (like that 3-2 Rodgers game where Balotelli scored) I'd have happily taken it on the chin, but my biggest issue is we did neither that or passive aggressive pragmatism, we just ended up looking like fucking rabbits caught in the headlights with no tactical clue what to do at all, and the sad thing is I don't even think Klopp has this Liverpool team at it's best either.

The two up top right next to each other just stretched our shape right out and left gaps everywhere to the side and behind them, combined with the fact that there are issues with all of Kane, Alli and Son's pressing. Kane is just not working hard enough generally in all games right now. Alli's not lazy, he will cover ground but he presses in that way that commits to easily and allows the player past too easily and once he's past he's away from him for good. Son just isn't very clever and conscientious with his pressing, and has now cost us goals in three major away games with his laziness.

Exactly, though I'd add that if you go out to press and the opposition are really on it with/without the ball and you're really on the back foot then pragmatism kicks in and you get organised behind the ball. Games like this and City (fluke result aside) for example Poch seems allergic to the concept of 'two banks of four' and even if its not what you want to do being compact and difficult to break down.

 

[danielneeds]

Exactly, though I'd add that if you go out to press and the opposition are really on it with/without the ball and you're really on the back foot then pragmatism kicks in and you get organised behind the ball. Games like this and City (fluke result aside) for example Poch seems allergic to the concept of 'two banks of four' and even if its not what you want to do being compact and difficult to break down.

It's not even just two banks of four, I'm thinking of those away games where Fergie would bring in Park to do a shuttling job, move a young Rooney wide, and generally bore his way to a point against Chelsea or Arsenal. Horses for courses sometimes.

The alternative is to try and Wenger it. Just rely on your qualities both home and away, and hope that is enough. That may have worked when he had truly superlative players like Bergkamp, Henry, etc, but it's not really done much since.

 

[bat-chain]

Will someone please email this article to Poch? Nail on the head stuff...

http://bet.unibet.co.uk/football/pr...-more-pragmatic-approach-against-bigger-sides

If Pochettino really takes this in and absorbs the pearls of wisdom Raj Bains is offering up, one day just maybe, with a bit of luck Poch will have his own column on the unibet website.

 

[danielneeds]

If Pochettino really takes this in and absorbs the pearls of wisdom Raj Bains is offering up, one day just maybe, with a bit of luck Poch will have his own column on the unibet website.

Ok, we'll just accept that Poch is correct in everything he does then, even buying Sissoko...

It's not just Mr Bains - Jose, Fergie and even Conte now believe in the idea of beating your rivals at home and then setting up to try and make sure they don't beat you away.

 

[Ionman34]

I wouldn't have even minded if we'd gone full banzai press war with them, as we have in Klopp's previous three games and the last one under Rodgers at their gaff. If we'd have lost a frenetic press fest (like that 3-2 Rodgers game where Balotelli scored) I'd have happily taken it on the chin, but my biggest issue is we did neither that or passive aggressive pragmatism, we just ended up looking like fucking rabbits caught in the headlights with no tactical clue what to do at all, and the sad thing is I don't even think Klopp has this Liverpool team at it's best either.

The two up top right next to each other just stretched our shape right out and left gaps everywhere to the side and behind them, combined with the fact that there are issues with all of Kane, Alli and Son's pressing. Kane is just not working hard enough generally in all games right now. Alli's not lazy, he will cover ground but he presses in that way that commits to easily and allows the player past too easily and once he's past he's away from him for good. Son just isn't very clever and conscientious with his pressing, and has now cost us goals in three major away games with his laziness.

I agree with you regarding the front 3 press but would also add that the lack of cohesion between the 3, you could even add in elements of the midfield, exacerbated their ineffectiveness. Against WBA and Middlesborough we hunted in packs with one/two pressing the ball whilst others cut off the out ball avenues. This caused turn over after turnover.

Liverpool did exactly this to us, whilst we had zero cohesive intent off the ball. That, more than anything for me, was why they had the run of the park.

It was another of those performances where the goldfish memory struck and we looked like strangers on the pitch, everyone doing their individual thing with no thought to the collective dynamic. This was apparent, not just in the disjointed press attempts, but in the dithering on the ball and indecision when looking to pass.

It almost looked like we had no preparation for the game whatsoever...

 

[bat-chain]

D

It's not just Mr Bains though - Jose, Fergie and even Conte now believe in the idea of beating your rivals at home and then setting up to try and make sure they don't beat you away.

There have been plenty of times they have gone away from home and absolutely pulverised opponents by being imposing their game on them too.

That is what Pochettino asked our players to do, because he thought they were good enough to do it, he learnt they were not.

He probably will change his approach in these games now because he'll know our players are not quite up to it.

I honestly think Dembele and Wanyama and Alli and Eriksen could have dominated that Liverpool team had they really wanted to.

Maybe we did play too high and Mane was probably always going to roast Davies, it's surely significant that teams were 'showing Pochettino how to do it' without Mane in the side.

You need to set up defensively against the best sides maybe, but here's the rub; Pochettino probably thinks or thought we're Liverpool are a worse side than us.

No way should our midfield be getting bossed by Jordan Henderson and Wijnaldum.

 

[whitesocks]

I`ve got absolutely no sympathy for Dier, he had an ample amount of time to do something with the ball, he knows Liverpool are a pressing team yet instead he wants (and not for the first time this season) far too much time on the ball, he's a dawdler and a plodder with the ball at his feet, far too often he takes too much time to decide what he wants to do and I`ve noticed that's it's really starting to irk me.

Mistake apart, I thought Dier had a relatively good game compared to the rest.
Klopp had really done his homework on us - if we played a suicidal high line (and MP has thrown some alternative facts out there that we were actually too deep), then certainly Liverpool did too, but we had no-one able to ping the ball into the space for Son to run onto. Neither Wanyama nor Dembele have that vision, and pool made sure Alderweireld had no time on the ball.

I would have taken off the ineffective Wanyama and pushed Dier into midfield, with the instruction to turn their defence. Plus he would have brought Eriksen into the game as they have an understanding. Their press would have been broken, and the momentum with us. 2-3 win and MP is a tactical genius rather than a chump.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Exactly, though I'd add that if you go out to press and the opposition are really on it with/without the ball and you're really on the back foot then pragmatism kicks in and you get organised behind the ball. Games like this and City (fluke result aside) for example Poch seems allergic to the concept of 'two banks of four' and even if its not what you want to do being compact and difficult to break down.

Agreed. Whether it was going to come from Poch or the players - once we realised what Liverpool were trying to do to us, we should have collectively tried to shut up shop just to get a foothold in the game. Instead we just continued to play right into their game plan.

 

[danielneeds]

There have been plenty of times they have gone away from home and absolutely pulverised opponents by being imposing their game on them too.

That is what Pochettino asked our players to do, because he thought they were good enough to do it, he learnt they were not.

He probably will change his approach in these games now because he'll know our players are not quite up to it.

I honestly think Dembele and Wanyama and Alli and Eriksen could have dominated that Liverpool team had they really wanted to.

Maybe we did play too high and Mane was probably always going to roast Davies, it's surely significant that teams were 'showing Pochettino how to do it' without Mane in the side.

You need to set up defensively against the best sides maybe, but here's the rub; Pochettino probably thinks or thought we're Liverpool are a worse side than us.

No way should our midfield be getting bossed by Jordan Henderson and Wijnaldum.

Well the fact none of the other top six sides have found a way of beating Liverpool shows that perhaps we're not that inept.

As I say, we've got to develop more ways of playing to be successful. We're never going to be Barca or Real and make everyone dance to our tune.

 

[Blake Griffin]

I really would like to see Winks/Wanyama/Dembele trio too but i think MoPo may feel this is 'lightweight ' defensively unless we have both Verts/toby defensively.
I dont know why he doesn't try this with Eriksen and Lamela or Alli.

we played it a couple of times earlier in the season(west ham, monaco?) and it was probably the worst we've looked all season. i don't think there's a big enough range in skills between the three.

 

[bat-chain]

Well the fact none of the other top six sides have found a way of beating Liverpool shows that perhaps we're not that inept.

As I say, we've got to develop more ways of playing to be successful. We're never going to be Barca or Real and make everyone dance to our tune.

You may well be right mate, I'm confident in Pochettino to find the solution's. even if it just means trying to get better at playing the way he wants.

People won't like it but it's quite telling that when asked if the team were too high in the post match press conference he said they were in fact too deep.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

You may well be right mate, I'm confident in Pochettino to find the solution's. even if it just means trying to get better at playing the way he wants.

People won't like it but it's quite telling that when asked if the team were too high in the post match press conference he said they were in fact too deep.

Deep in shit, probably.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I agree with you regarding the front 3 press but would also add that the lack of cohesion between the 3, you could even add in elements of the midfield, exacerbated their ineffectiveness. Against WBA and Middlesborough we hunted in packs with one/two pressing the ball whilst others cut off the out ball avenues. This caused turn over after turnover.

Liverpool did exactly this to us, whilst we had zero cohesive intent off the ball. That, more than anything for me, was why they had the run of the park.

It was another of those performances where the goldfish memory struck and we looked like strangers on the pitch, everyone doing their individual thing with no thought to the collective dynamic. This was apparent, not just in the disjointed press attempts, but in the dithering on the ball and indecision when looking to pass.

It almost looked like we had no preparation for the game whatsoever...

The really irritating thing for me was that Poch did something very similar against ManC, shoving Alli right up top with Kane so he had a blueprint for failure that he seemed to follow.

It's not like Klopp did anything radical either, it was his regular 433, regular format and regular application. There were no tactical smoke and mirrors, at least against City Guardiola did present something slightly nuanced to the previous week, and Poch did at least try to adapt very quickly (even if it was relatively unsuccessful).

That performance, and the City one, were like the many Redknapp performances away at big sides. A tactical vortex.

The only crumb of comfort really is that apart from Liverpool, all the top 6 teams have had similar away experiences this season, Chelsea and City at us for example.